Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

Quote from zorud

There are tons of discussions on many blogs incl. ECW on this nebulous SGS certificate. It is what it states: a single and voluntary confirmation for a that single prototype that is exactly described. Has nothing to do with a product certification nor any CE Mark. And the manufacturer was EFA S.r.l, somewhere in Bologna, Italy. It doesn’t say anything about “Nuclear”, which would require of course much more and other safety certifications, than a device that turns 85 deg C hot water to 120 deg C hot steam. The SK must be nuclear of course, why in hell Rossi should put there radiation detectors prominently on top of the Blue box if radiation and nuclear processes are not involved? This move to admit to have radiation and nuclear processes and the claim that his 7 year old „certificate“ still covers all his later gadgets are huge nails in the cofffin of his „industrial certified product“, that his friend Frank Acland strongly promotes since th Jan31 DPS all over his ECW place.... and we all know, that the robotic factories are warming up for the massive order income 😆😆😆

Absolutely. Rossi could plausibly, if he had working product, avoid any talk of LENR or radiation and sell it as some hypothesised Millsian lower Hydrogen level or whatever. The point is that then he avoids a whole load of extra regulatory issues.

What does he do? He releases (IP breaking, if real) isotopic analyses showing nuclear transmutation. He hypothesises some nuclear mechanism. All of which make real product commercialisation much more difficult.

Why does he do this? I don't know what KevMo's "inductive touchpoint" would be, having blocked him, but for me Rossi does it because he needs internet PR to drag in investors - who will never get convincing "device works" tests. If any of his devices did really work as billed no internet presence or publicity is required and massive interest and funding (under NDA if required) would follow - subject to rigorous independent black box testing.

Rossi's actions make sense if he has nothing that works, an are totally counterproductive if he has something that works.

Quote from zorud

The SK must be nuclear of course, why in hell Rossi should put there radiation detectors prominently on top of the Blue box if radiation and nuclear processes are not involved? This move to admit to have radiation and nuclear processes and the claim that his 7 year old „certificate“ still covers all his later gadgets are huge nails in the cofffin of his „industrial certified product“, ...

LENR doesn't exist according to the officials. So no prob.

Quote from THHuxleynew

LENR experimental results need to be written up in a way that is ultra-skeptical, considering all possible loopholes and reckoning that there can always be unknown unknowns and therefore creatively finding unexpected and testable predictions that would validate an LENR interpretation of some replicable but not definite results is the way to go.

Okay Mr. Rumsfeld. The thing is, it is easy to calculate how much chemical energy is able to be expressed in a given experiment. If you go multiple times beyond that, there aren't too many loopholes to consider.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Okay Mr. Rumsfeld. The thing is, it is easy to calculate how much chemical energy is able to be expressed in a given experiment. If you go multiple times beyond that, there aren't too many loopholes to consider.

That argument is a common misconception.

Suppose you have a 5% error in calorimetry, and a 10W heat input, to a small amount of active material. Calculating the energy output is easy: 5J/s the experiment is run for. Easy to go over any chemical bound by running for long enough. And ever with relatively short experiments easy to go many times over the chemical bound.

So a figure that looks so high it cannot be artifactual is generated from a 5% error in calorimetry.

I know those doing this stuff are aware of this - though unfortunately headline results from LENR papers do not always make the matter clear, and commentators can conflate high transient COP (possible from chemical means) with high calculated energy output (possible from small calorimetry errors) putting the two together as though they make things more certain.

The number of loopholes to consider is then all the stuff that for that specific experiment can result in 5% input or output measurement errors.

Quote from THHuxleynew

That argument is a common misconception.

Suppose you have a 5% error in calorimetry, and a 10W heat input, to a small amount of active material. Calculating the energy output is easy: 5J/s the experiment is run for. Easy to go over any chemical bound by running for long enough. And ever with relatively short experiments easy to go many times over the chemical bound.

So a figure that looks so high it cannot be artifactual is generated from a 5% error in calorimetry.

I know those doing this stuff are aware of this - though unfortunately headline results from LENR papers do not always make the matter clear, and commentators can conflate high transient COP (possible from chemical means) with high calculated energy output (possible from small calorimetry errors) putting the two together as though they make things more certain.

The number of loopholes to consider is then all the stuff that for that specific experiment can result in 5% input or output measurement errors.

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There are quite a few LENR experiments that have shown many, many multiples beyond what is chemically capable. A 5% error in calorimetry is not a very good unknown unknown.

Quote from zorud

There are tons of discussions on many blogs incl. ECW on this nebulous SGS certificate. It is what it states: a single and voluntary confirmation for a that single prototype that is exactly described. Has nothing to do with a product certification nor any CE Mark. And the manufacturer was EFA S.r.l, somewhere in Bologna, Italy. It doesn’t say anything about “Nuclear”, which would require of course much more and other safety certifications, than a device that turns 85 deg C hot water to 120 deg C hot steam. The SK must be nuclear of course, why in hell Rossi should put there radiation detectors prominently on top of the Blue box if radiation and nuclear processes are not involved? This move to admit to have radiation and nuclear processes and the claim that his 7 year old „certificate“ still covers all his later gadgets are huge nails in the cofffin of his „industrial certified product“, that his friend Frank Acland strongly promotes since th Jan31 DPS all over his ECW place.... and we all know, that the robotic factories are warming up for the massive order income 😆😆😆

Directive 2006/42/EC is all about a CE mark.

But of course that Plant was torn down and no longer exists.

And is Efa even around at all any more?

I doubt SGS had any idea that the Plant was supposed to be a nuclear reactor.

And Rossi, over and over again says that the SGS and BV certifications he has “already got” are good also for the QX and now SK. Unless you want a domestic ecat of some sort. That domestic certification has been on-going for years, but of course certifications for domestic use start over from scratch with each new iteration of ecat. But no problem for industrial use. Just reuse the CE certifications for the USA. That is just fine...

But when it comes to real certifications, Rossi says (in bold) in this letter to IH :

Quote

Okay Mr. Rumsfeld. The thing is, it is easy to calculate how much chemical energy is able to be expressed in a given experiment. If you go multiple times beyond that, there aren't too many loopholes to consider.

There are at least two and they are "biggies". These are fraud and measurement errors.

Quote from IH Fanboy

There are quite a few LENR experiments that have shown many, many multiples beyond what is chemically capable. A 5% error in calorimetry is not a very good unknown unknown.

IHFB - you are clever enough to see that the first part of your answer, repeating the original, does not in any way contradict my point. That you repeat it is revealing. And if you reckon 5% unconsidered calorimetry errors are too large to be considered just alter the percentage. If you pointed out that many many results show chemical excess and experiment time that bound power excess to something well above calorimetry error that would be a good answer.

And just to throw more branches on the fire, if anyone gave a safety certificate for the Doral plant, they should be fired. Barry had to set up that yellow chain fence in front of the Big Frankies each time the visitors arrived to prevent the visitors from touching the reactors and being electrocuted. (Document 207-61)

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Quote from Dewey Weaver

Spam

THHuxleynew

EE and Electrochemist. and Gamma analysis Expert.. to boot

Not a generalising generalist at all.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

And just to throw more branches on the fire, if anyone gave a safety certificate for the Doral plant, they should be fired. Barry had to set up that yellow chain fence in front of the Big Frankies each time the visitors arrived to prevent the visitors from touching the reactors and being electrocuted. (Document 207-61)

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Thomas Edison probably didn't have a safety certificate either when he shocked an elephant to death with AC electricity in an attempt to demonstrate that it was dangerous. And just look at what we have and enjoy today, which enhances all of our lives, all to the credit of that man.

Quote from RobertBryant

THHuxleynew

EE and Electrochemist. and Gamma analysis Expert.. to boot

Not a generalising generalist at all.

Robert - I think you are perhaps misunderstanding what I've been saying.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Thomas Edison probably didn't have a safety certificate either when he shocked an elephant to death with AC electricity in an attempt to demonstrate that it was dangerous. And just look at what we have and enjoy today, which enhances all of our lives, all to the credit of that man.

And if someone gave the shocking elephant device a safety certificate, then that person should be fired.

Did Thomas Edison pretend to have safety certifications?

Ah yes... a very satisfying asymptote to nothing for the Rossifarian remnant of Planet Rossi. First we have the analog to the chemistry of fire then we move on to an Edison safety lesson. This has become more entertaining that I could have ever imagined. They work hard those Rossifarians - got to hand them that.