Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion


    Quote

    However, the Rossi skeptics have far more to swallow once it is proven there is some truth in what the Italian Fox says, than in a negative situation.

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    I don't worry about that, not even a tiny bit. You OTOH have given some thought to your escape hatch?


    So if Rossi is vindicated, you have no qualms about having repeatedly slandered the man. Surely that says something, psychologically and culturally.


    If Rossi's work is all an elaborate con, there is no need to escape through some hatch for us Rossi believers. We'll take it on the chin, like men.

    Quote from Mark U

    If Rossi's work is all an elaborate con, there is no need to escape through some hatch for us Rossi believers. We'll take it on the chin, like men.


    I doubt that. It has been proven a con and yet most supporters refuse to acknowledge it.


    Proven? Per sworn court documents, many from Rossi's own mouth.


    1) Letter from Rossi to IH stating the Doral event was a "sale of heat" to an established customer. - Proven lie, there was no customer, it was Rossi himself.


    2) That the offer had to be accepted within a very short time frame as the customer had to move on to other heat sources. - Proven lie, there was no customer nor no actual time line commitment, other than to induce fraud.


    3) Invoices from the "customer" to IH was presented by Rossi. Proven fraud as there was no customer other than Rossi himself, and the heat was not consumed. IH never paid the fake invoices.


    4) Tours of the Doral facility by the "chief engineer". The person portraying the position was an out of work person with an IT background. The depositions established that the fake engineer spoke only what Rossi instructed him to while portraying him as chief engineer from the "customer". Proven lies.


    5) The Penon report showed on multiple occasions that the plant "consumed" more electricity than the power company provided. Clearly false data.


    6) The heat dissipation was originally stated by Rossi to be an exotic thermal manufacturing process, then a vent in the roof, then finallly during court depositions,

    a heat exchanger. The heat exchanger is undoubtedly fake with no supporting evidence and various photos, calculations and testimonies indicating fraud as everything else. Note, if the exchanger did exist, Rossi lied about the manufacturing process, the roof vent and other issues around it.


    7) Rossi stated the "custmer" was using the heat to fabricate production product. The court depositions clearly showed the "customer side" was nothing but a set of pipes that circulated the water and no evidence at all for production.


    and the list goes on.


    Yet, I have not seen an ardent Rossi supporter yet acknowledge that Doral was a scam, despite all the evidence. So I doubt the claim "We'll take it on the chin, like men." is correct. Excuses are always made up! :!::whistling:

    Quote from Mark U



    So if Rossi is vindicated, you have no qualms about having repeatedly slandered the man. Surely that says something, psychologically and culturally.


    If Rossi's work is all an elaborate con, there is no need to escape through some hatch for us Rossi believers. We'll take it on the chin, like men.


    Mark U - no qualms at all. He is a liar and a cheat (on record) with multiple different misinterpretations of experimental results that generate false positives. That is known. Doral did not work (strong circumstantial evidence). If he has also invented an LENR device (a hypothetical so counterfactual as to be in the realm of high fantasy) then my comments about him remain fair, and certainly not slander.

    http://www.journal-of-nuclear-…&cpage=17#comment-1071031


    • Steven April 13, 2015 at 3:40 PM

      Andrea: congratulations, Tom Darden, the President of Industrial Heat, has said at the ICCF 19 in Padua that thanks to you LENR are arrived to a tip . Any comment?

      Steven

    • Andrea Rossi April 13, 2015 at 7:04 PM

      Steven:

      If he said so, I am delighted of it. He is my Customer !

      Anyway, we have a long road to go through before being satisfied, because until the test on course has not be completed, the risk that the final results will be negative exists.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.

    Quote from Mark U

    If Rossi's work is all an elaborate con, there is no need to escape through some hatch for us Rossi believers. We'll take it on the chin, like men.

    I think it is pretty obvious that there is absolutely nothing that would convince Rossi believers that his work is a scam. They will believe no matter what happens. That is their signature pathology. So there is no need for them to ever take it on the chin.

    Quote from Bob#2

    I doubt that. It has been proven a con and yet most supporters refuse to acknowledge it.

    ...

    and the list goes on.


    Yet, I have not seen an ardent Rossi supporter yet acknowledge that Doral was a scam, despite all the evidence. So I doubt the claim "We'll take it on the chin, like men." is correct. Excuses are always made up! :!::whistling:

    Oh, I don't deny that Rossi has lied and finessed to get his way. He is, as far as I can tell, Machiavellian. (He even looks like Machiavelli.) Not my personal cup of tea for doing things. But some people can pull it off, and it can work. If the ultimate purpose is noble, then do the ends justify the means? Not in my philosophy. But I understand that people like Rossi may see things differently. About Doral, I've believed for a while that more than anything it was a way for him to get time and finesse resources (from IH) to work on a successor to the Ecat - the QuarkX - while onsite at the 'factory' most hours of the day. So to me, certain aspects of Doral were indeed a scam and a necessary evil for him to continue with his work. Yeah it's yucky.

    Quote from Mark U

    Oh, I don't deny that Rossi has lied and finessed to get his way. He is, as far as I can tell, Machiavellian. (He even looks like Machiavelli.) Not my personal cup of tea for doing things. But some people can pull it off, and it can work. If the ultimate purpose is noble, then do the ends justify the means? Not in my philosophy. But I understand that people like Rossi may see things differently. About Doral, I've believed for a while that more than anything it was a way for him to get time and finesse resources (from IH) to work on a successor to the Ecat - the QuarkX - while onsite at the 'factory' most hours of the day. So to me, certain aspects of Doral were indeed a scam and a necessary evil for him to continue with his work. Yeah it's yucky.


    OK: this is the: "liar and cheat - but its all business" rationalisation which is pretty well required of the latter-day Rossi supporters.


    The problem with this is that once you open that box - how can you know that anything Rossi says about his technology is true? It is not as though he has any external validation. All he has is a situation where he lost $100M (that must be more than a 100 more condos?) which he clearly desperately desired because his tech as given to IH did not work.


    How do we know that? Well, if IH had working tech from Rossi, Niall Woodford would not be finding it so difficult to sell his holding in them.


    But Rossi had such a strong motivation to keep to that contract and give IH working tech... Even given he is a liar and cheat.


    THH

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    OK: this is the: "liar and cheat - but its all business" rationalisation which is pretty well required of the latter-day Rossi supporters.


    The problem with this is that once you open that box - how can you know that anything Rossi says about his technology is true?

    Indeed. This is what makes it so interesting. Like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get. I believe there are at least some good chocolates in the box. Non believers have extrapolated to think it is *all* some other brown substance. Like politics these days, things are more polarized and there seem to be fewer in the middle.


    Quote

    It is not as though he has any external validation. All he has is a situation where he lost $100M (that must be more than a 100 more condos?) which he clearly desperately desired because his tech as given to IH did not work.


    How do we know that? Well, if IH had working tech from Rossi, Niall Woodford would not be finding it so difficult to sell his holding in them.


    But Rossi had such a strong motivation to keep to that contract and give IH working tech... Even given he is a liar and cheat.


    If Rossi knew he had working tech, imo there is no way he would give the rights of that working tech to IH for even one hundred million dollars. To me he values control of ultimate outcome over short term gain. What he gave to IH wasn't working tech but something probably close imo. So he was possibly trying to weasel more money out of IH over IP that wasn't quite all there, and it wasn't all there because Rossi probably never did entirely trust IH. In the end Rossi didn't want IH to have any of it, lest it come to bite him later. A plot worthy of a movie.


    About being a liar and a cheat. I disagree. I believe the man is a noble, creative spirit who in the trenches of war will do the nasty business of what he thinks has to be done. It's cruel out there and he learned those lessons early.

    Quote

    So if Rossi is vindicated, you have no qualms about having repeatedly slandered the man. Surely that says something, psychologically and culturally.

    How in the world, after 8 years of lying, and accomplishing absolutely nothing, could you "vindicate" Rossi? Are you up to vindicating my flying pigs? They are far more plausible than Rossi's claims.


    Quote

    If Rossi knew he had working tech, imo there is no way he would give the rights of that working tech to IH for even one hundred million dollars. To me he values control of ultimate outcome over short term gain. What he gave to IH wasn't working tech but something probably close imo. So he was possibly trying to weasel more money out of IH over IP that wasn't quite all there, and it wasn't all there because Rossi probably never did entirely trust IH. In the end Rossi didn't want IH to have any of it, lest it come to bite him later. A plot worthy of a movie.

    Rossi was delighted to bamboozle Darden for more than 11.5 million dollars which, after legal costs, he sank into Miami condominiums (proven by searching records).


    Quote

    About being a liar and a cheat. I disagree. I believe the man is a noble, creative spirit who in the trenches of war will do the nasty business of what he thinks has to be done. It's cruel out there and he learned those lessons early.

    OK. Listen, I have a great investment for you. I have a controlling interest in a bridge over the Hudson River. Millions in tolls collected annually. I'll let you have 50% for just $100,000 but you have to act fast. Western Union would be fine.

    Quote from Mark U

    About being a liar and a cheat. I disagree. I believe the man is a noble, creative spirit who in the trenches of war will do the nasty business of what he thinks has to be done. It's cruel out there and he learned those lessons early.

    Why do skeptics continue to follow the Rossi saga? To be able to read jaw-dropping statements like the above. It truly boggles the mind.

    Mark U: If Rossi knew he had working tech, imo there is no way he would give the rights of that working tech to IH for even one hundred million dollars.


    OK. I'm not sure how closely you followed the depositions. Rossi admitted there that he desperately wanted to run the long-term test and get the $100M. That contract, with $100M up front, was clearly a Rossi concoction. No VC would want a contract that so separated the financial interests of the inventor and the commercialiser. It is just bad practice, you want to keep your inventor on board.


    "Give up the rights". What rights did he give up? Less than half of the world. Completely independently of IH, with $100M to aid the commercialisation, he could milk the EU and various other markets.


    It is just not rational to believe he would be reluctant to follow through his own contract to its happy and quite one-sided conclusion of IH giving him $100M.


    Mark U: What he gave to IH wasn't working tech but something probably close imo. So he was possibly trying to weasel more money out of IH over IP that wasn't quite all there, and it wasn't all there because Rossi probably never did entirely trust IH.


    OK, let us tease this apart.


    1. On the one hand, you are saying that Rossi never had working technology. In that case you agree with me. Note that half-working ecats would still be worth $100M and/or nobel prizes as definite sign of new physics. But Rossi has completely abandoned his old devices, and IH did not try to keep them either.


    2. Otherwise, you think he concocted that $100M up front payment contract, and deliberately withheld the one thing IH would want to pay him? Why?


    I notice you are combining both these propositions: a common practice when considered individually two arguments are obviously false. In this case it does not make them truer to combine.


    it does not make sense.

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    it does not make sense.

    Hi THHuxleynew,


    Indeed. It does not make sense that somebody since 2011 convinced several groups about at least some value in his statements and is now considered by many to be a total con.


    It does not make sense that (sone of) the findings

    of this man have been replicated by several groups.


    That a very experienced investor was willing to pay 10 mio upfront to see this man at work. That this investor attracted several parties that invested tens of millions of USD in a venture where the now so-called con was the main and foremost asset.


    It does not make sense that nobody but IH fell-out with Rossi after all these years. That a whole department of a reputable university remains tightlipped about an intense cooperation with the suspected con.


    It does not make sense that after dealing with Rossi, other prospects of IH all of a sudden gained traction and we are, if we believe Dewey Weaver, close to a party to celebrate all beautiful world saving inventions.


    It does not make sense that IH was unable to get Rossi convicted or officially labelled as a scammer, despite all big-mouthing and spinning.


    Cheers,


    JB

    WCG:

    Indeed. It does not make sense that somebody since 2011 convinced several groups about at least some value in his statements and is now considered by many to be a total con.


    Really? That makes perfect sense. You should study history. Many people are easily taken in by wish fullfilment stories.


    I think also the internet helps the phenomenon. Consider, you can get your story out to 100s of thousands of scientists and journalists. All you need is one or two to be hooked - and I'll assure you scientists are every bit as human as anyone else - and you have your "several groups".


    Part of the interest in this story, those who do not have any hope Rossi his the goods, is noting how easily genuinely good people can be bamboozled by a good story. It has always been thus but Rossi is still a striking and colorful example.


    THH

    It does not make sense that (sone of) the findings

    of this man have been replicated by several groups.


    false


    That a very experienced investor was willing to pay 10 mio upfront to see this man at work. That this investor attracted several parties that invested tens of millions of USD in a venture where the now so-called con was the main and foremost asset.


    See above, you are strangely naive and ignorant of history.


    It does not make sense that nobody but IH fell-out with Rossi after all these years.


    Rossi picks his marks carefully: notice how he pushes away those inclined to stand up to him, and how he works only with close family friends. Academics inclined at one time to support him are not going to get involved in name calling now: that is just digging a hole you are in. Nor would any such likely to do the detective work needed to expose Rossi. Remember how tricky and capable of multiple interpretations his statements always are? He fell out with IH, because for the first time he was bound to a definite contract with deliverables that required working product, rather than promisses of licenses one day. On that subject, several of his licensees fell out with him spectacularly due to repeated failure to deliver anything they could sell.


    That a whole department of a reputable university remains tightlipped about an intense cooperation with the suspected con.


    That is weird. Of course no university will want any collaboration with Rossi, and where some poor individual academics have been sucked in discrete silence is the best damage limitation. What else would you expect?


    It does not make sense that after dealing with Rossi, other prospects of IH all of a sudden gained traction and we are, if we believe Dewey Weaver , close to a party to celebrate all beautiful world saving inventions.


    That is an interesting point. Several things here:

    • LENR was due a "look at it again" come back partly because of concern about AGW which leads to more urgency about finding free energy solutions.
    • Rossi himself managed PR well. People in industry will go for a long odds story if well presented. Scientists can always be found on any side of an issue: some LENR people would have said - yes, look at Focardi, he could have something. People like Jed, observing early tests (the "Samovar") were taken in by it. Correct judgement of these things is less interesting and newsworthy than "here is an inventor who has a wonderful invention".

    It does not make sense that IH was unable to get Rossi convicted or officially labelled as a scammer, despite all big-mouthing and spinning.


    Why would that do IH any good? IH never wanted a public argument with Rossi. They never wanted the court case (nor would any reputable company). It was he who sued them. Nor do they want publicly to have to say the IP they bought from him is worthless. In such a speculative area, in any case, almost anything might have value. But, also, you do not understand how difficult it is to get criminal convictions, as opposed to civil ones. The burden of proof is very different.


    You seem to think that a company behaves like individuals wanting to win an internet argument. Well, Dewey himself may do that, and some presence here might be needed to present IH's side of the case to a wider LENR interested public - they propaganda from Rossi and ECW was so very very poisonous. But why on earth would a company spend valuable investors money on prosecuting Rossi? As soon as he stopped the case, they agreed.


    All said before, but no harm repeating?


    THH

    Hi THHuxleynew,


    Indeed, we repeat our opinions ad infinitum whereby you especially give just that little extra attention to make sure the Industrial Heat points are whitewashed.


    Let’s agree that we disagree (or is that repetitive as well?) and see who has the most energy to sometimes show the honourable forum readers a different perspective.


    If i were Rossi i would send you some flowers once every so often. It is because of his biggest bashers he is still on the forefront.


    Cheers,


    JB

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