Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

Quote from gdaigle

Rossi then added, "Last, but not least: we obtained the safety certification."

So it appears that hurdle has been overcome.

Rossi has said this for 10 years. And again, there is ZERO reason not to show a safety certification. He did this once and it backfired as it clearly showed to be a worthless "cert". It was a self certification from SGS that was simply for electrical boxes, some switches and other common components. The cert clearly and absolutely stated the cert could NOT be used for advertising nor commercial purposes, yet Rossi did so anyway. It has been said (I have not tried to confirm) that SGS pulled even that simple self certification for electrical components from Rossi.

Again, there is zero reason why one would not supply the certification unless they knew it would expose lies. I.E. a certification is along these lines "SGS has tested "unit X" to standard ASTM XYZ and found it conforms to all requirements. " There is nothing in a cert that exposes proprietary information.

Rossi does not provide proof of the cert because :

A) He does not have one

or

B) It shows that it is certifying something other than he claims and shows that he is misleading / deceiving people. Such as the SGS cert did.

Quote from Mark U

@ Bob2, surely you are speaking about certification at the manufacturing level of a device. For one-off products that are still in R&D and used/field-tested in an industrial setting, the rules are not as stringent. When Rossi talks about getting safety certification, I assume this regards the general safety of his device operating in an industrial setting and under certain conditions.

Mark,

There is no "one off" safety certification. Truthfully, in many instances, there are no laws requiring any certification for industrial use. Most companies would not dare use a non-certified device due to liability however. As far as prototypes, again, there is no law or "need" for any certifications. So this is not logical either.

Again to Mark and others... a certifying agency will not issue ANY "Safety" or other type of certification unless there is an approved industry standard to which to certify. Rossi's answer :

"The safety certification is based on precise measurements of specific parameters related to safety, like radiations, etc., not to theoretical hypothesis of Physics. We already obtained the safety certification." is pure BS!

Certifications have nothing to do with theory, showing that Rossi does not know what he is talking about. Certification means that an agency is CERTIFYING to a known standard! Not simply taking precise measurments of parameters related to safety! This is pure BS.

For instance, he mentions radiation....

a) What standard was used? One might say they showed zero so it is safe?

b) Did Rossi send an eCat to the agency so they could test it under all operating conditions? They would not certify zero radiation unless they actually tested under power and the complete range of power etc., using their own devices AT their own facility. Do you really think Rossi allowed this? Again I know a certifying agency would require a published standard. Yet Rossi will not provide this? hmmmm..

c)So even if he did get a "Cert", he should be able to show it. Just like a UL cert. , there is no proprietary information given. Simply "UL certifies unit X met or exceeded standard XYZ"

If Rossi does not supply this info, you can rest assured he is lying and worse, he is insulting your intelligence.

Quote from Bob#2

Mark,

There is no "one off" safety certification. Truthfully, in many instances, there are no laws requiring any certification for industrial use. Most companies would not dare use a non-certified device due to liability however. As far as prototypes, again, there is no law or "need" for any certifications. So this is not logical either.

Well, I posted a few days ago from a certification company website that they provide such on site certifications for one-of-a-kind type of devices in industry. Maybe they aren't called 'safety' certifications, I don't know. But since it surely relates to insurance purposes I would think it's about safety.

Quote from Bob#2

If Rossi does not supply this info, you can rest assured he is lying and worse, he is insulting your intelligence.

From today :

Anonymous

June 8, 2020 at 5:47 AM

Dr Rossi:

Can you publish the safety certifications?

Andrea Rossi

June 8, 2020 at 7:19 AM

Anonymous:

The safety certifications of the Ecat SKL will be delivered only together with the apparatuses when the SKL will be for sale, as we did with the Ecat.

Warm Regards,

A.R.

Quote from Mark U

Anonymous:

The safety certifications of the Ecat SKL will be delivered only together with the apparatuses when the SKL will be for sale, as we did with the Ecat.

Warm Regards,

A.R.

He should have statements from certification agencies that he should be able to show.

If you want to become a customer of Leonardo you will need to buy the cat in the bag to check if the product does indeed have a certificate... 😂😂😂

A Schrodinger’s certificate for a Schrodinger’s ecat...

Quote from Mark U

Andrea Rossi

June 8, 2020 at 7:19 AM

Anonymous:

The safety certifications of the Ecat SKL will be delivered only together with the apparatuses when the SKL will be for sale, as we did with the Ecat.

Warm Regards,

A.R.

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The "Ecat" was/is for sale?

He delievered "Ecat"? With "safety certifications". Cool!

But:

WTH is an "Ecat" and who has bought one

And BTW:

Is the invisible heat exchanger included or for an extra fee?

Quote from Mark U

Well, I posted a few days ago from a certification company website that they provide such on site certifications for one-of-a-kind type of devices in industry. Maybe they aren't called 'safety' certifications, I don't know. But since it surely relates to insurance purposes I would think it's about safety.

I did not state you could not get a "one off cert", but that it is not a legal requirement, at least not federal in the US. Some local governments require various certifications for perhaps for such. Federal also requires some extra ordinary devices such as nuclear etc, , but that takes years and complete review of internal designs etc. I know Rossi has not done that. Does a local government require a cert for a electric heater? Some require licensed HVAC people to install and inspectors to inspect. Do you think Rossi has done this?

And again, there is nothing to prevent him from showing certifications. His statement :

"The safety certifications of the Ecat SKL will be delivered only together with the apparatuses when the SKL will be for sale, as we did with the Ecat." Is pure BS.

1) Where is the eCat sale? The IH plant? No certs were ever shown in the court documents. As a matter of fact, is was proven that Rossi NEVER obtained the local permits for the operation! A complete lie as he said he did, but was proved that he did not. What makes you think we would do different here?

So where / who was this eCat sold to?

2)Where is the cert and who issued it? You must remember Rossi has stated (by his own words) that he has sold over 13 eCats over the past 10-12 years. Not a single customer has come forward except IH, and we know how that ended..... a complete scam by Rossi... heat exchanger and all... with NO CERTS. Where is the cert for eCat sale Rossi refers to? hmmmm... no one has seen it evidently.

Quote from Alan Smith

You are quite right. It is not legal to operate without insurance, and failing to offer insurers the opportunity to examine the novel equipment you plan to use is a breach of the policy conditions. There are some 'de minimus' exceptions for small experiments, but 'by the book' means that you must make and keep a record of risk assessments of the apparatus and the methodology used in conjunction with it. Failing to do that is also a breach of regulations.

Further to this, pressure vessels must be tested and certified before use with no exceptions, and all electrical equipment given a clean bill of health by an approved electrical inspector- certainly in the UK/EU.

Yes, there were permits required for the Doral / 1 MW plant. Rossi told IH that he "obtained" them. The court documents proved that Rossi lied and none were obtained? Why? Because a permit would require inspections, including the customer side, which Rossi would not permit anyone to enter. It would require equipment to meet various ASTM and ANSI standards, which Rossi certainly did not. In other words, it would have exposed him. Same now.

Does one think his "pressurized heat exhanger" that he designed on the back of a napkin and was built by itinerant workers picked up at the Home Depot parking lot would pass a permit inspection?

Posts that are vague, such as to your position (as often is) seem to give Rossi credence or validity... do YOU think Rossi has valid certs and passed such tests, including required insurance, permits and inspections?

LENR has a black enough eye. People supporting Rossi or at the very least, not holding him accountable and giving him the nuanced support is a betrayal to the field. Yes, ME356 / Johnny5 was called out for 1/10 the misdeeds of Rossi, yet Rossi is still !

But I guess we know why.... ME356 did not bilk $10 million from an evil capital venture firm! Sometimes the end justifies the means

Quote from Alan Smith

Bob#2

IH got $60M on the basis that Rossi's tech worked. They did better than Rossi.

I believe it was closer to $50 million, but who is counting.....

To my knowledge, although admittedly I have not confirmed actual documents....

Bob Higgins is/was getting some of that $60 M

Mizuno got some of that $60 M

Is it Leavitts that is working with them as well?

Are they to be considered "bad people" as well, because they work with IH?

Has anyone heard one peep from any of them that they were not happy with IH?

Is that money IH has assisting REAL scientists who might actually bring LENR to life?

I am sure all the money Rossi has scammed is going to good use! Let's see... feeding kids in Africa? NOT!

Buying condos in Florida? Hell yes!

Helping LENR out? NOT!

Then of course, the lawsuit that Rossi started and then walked away from cost millions of dollars as well, eating up much of that $50 mill.

But to be clear, to my knowledge, everything IH / Darden did was legal, not obtained by fraud, risks were listed and was above board.

If you have ANY facts stating otherwise, I truly would like to see those facts. (Rossi BS about IH does not mean crap)

It is absolutely true that at one time IH thought and hoped that Rossi's tech worked. They had the Swedish profs word behind that.

THEN the TRUTH came out that Rossi was scamming all along. (Like most thought he was) The Swedes after ALL these years have not said

one word! Can you believe that!

So to compare Rossi with IH/Darden is quite counter factual. It is quite remarkable that an intelligent person could truly put the two side by side and

state that "IH did better", like the measure was who could scam the most money! It is ludicrous to infer that IH / Darden is "more criminal" than Rossi!

Rossi has been absolutely PROVEN to be a liar, a scammer, a forger, a fraudster and defrauded to the tune of $11.5 million dollars. Just on the eCat, not to mention his oil scams, his gold scams or his electronic scams.

I did my research and challenge anyone here to post actual facts where Tom Darden is proven to be any of the things Rossi has been proven to be. From my research, Darden has a very good reputation and still does. (Yes, I know of fines due to accounting errors, etc. All paid and Darden is in good standing in all those cases)

But that does not matter... capitalism is evil and anything supporting it is evil by association..... anyone against a capitalist is to be forgiven any sin!

And no Wytt and others, I am not paid by IH (or anyone else), I know no one connected to IH and if you start that BS, you are simply full of it!

I am simply a person tired of seeing a fraudster and scammer like Rossi continue to get support and further blacken LENR's reputation.

The ends does not justify the means.

Quote from Mark U

I.O., it's a bunch of smaller reasons that, to me, point to one direction. Reasons like : his drive to accomplishment, his tenacity, his capacity for learning, his strong philosophical bent, his seriousness, his humour and playfulness, the company of collaborators he keeps through the years, and more. Even his recent distancing from the LENR terminology I take as a hint that he is intent on bringing a working product to market.

Amazing. As is the case for every aspect of the Rossi circus, there is zero evidence for any of the qualities you ascribe to Rossi. It is all in your head. But I guess that should have been obvious. I keep expecting one of the faithful to point to something real as their reason for believing Rossi. But alas, it is all delusion.

Quote from Alan Smith

Bob#2

Yes, small amounts of money have been paid by IH to workers in the field. But the lion's share has been spent in administration and management charges. And, mysteriously, Lux Energy, a UK company still sits on £3M which doesn't seem to help anybody. And there is nothing published at all. Not even at an anecdotal level.

Alan, that might be true, or false. But how do you know? Certainly those investing in IH would hope a good proportion of their money went to people who might actually deliver results, or enough promise to merit further fund raising. Adim does not deliver returns.

Quote from Alan Smith

The accounts are public if you know where to look, and I talk to people with direct experience. So public data and first-hand accounts. Meanwhile the main focus of IH seems to be on writing patents to cover every aspect of the field they can think of.

That would make an interesting thread, with the source data. As always, I'll reserve judgement if given only anecdotes. Too easy for things to get distorted.

Quote from Alan Smith

The accounts are public if you know where to look, and I talk to people with direct experience. So public data and first-hand accounts. Meanwhile the main focus of IH seems to be on writing patents to cover every aspect of the field they can think of.

It is all good and well to learn more about a situation. If IH / Darden indeed are doing criminal acts, then I would want to know about it and I would certainly voice my opposition to any such act, vigorously. I would truly appreciate such factual information as I have no desire to support criminal organizations. I have no allegiance to IH/Darden, other than it appears they are doing far more for LENR than Rossi ever has.

However, if the crux is just a political worldview difference, then I will challenge distortion with facts. If IH is obtaining patents legally, paying for them and looking to make a profit, all above board, then so be it. It is no different than thousands of other valid and above board companies buying shares / stocks to gain control over a company. It is business. It is legal and nothing immoral about it.

If people that seem to be of good moral character, such as Bob Higgins, etc. (and I admit, I do not know them personally, but have read and can admire their posts and statements, etc.) have no qualms with IH, that also speaks volumes.

So my point and "burr under my saddle is this". Not liking a venture capitalist firm or capitalism in general is certainly one's prerogative. I can understand that view and respect it*. I realize that capitalism is not perfect, can be corrupted and has short comings. But then most certainly so does socialism.

*What I do not respect, is the double standard that is often set forth here. Rossi is a known fraudster, scammer, liar and conman. He CONTINUES to be. If someone calls Rossi out on his many proven acts and holds him accountable AND expresses their dislike / disagreements with IH / Darden's perfectly legal, but against one's preferred economic worldview, that would seem logical and balanced. While I might not share that same view, I could respect it.

If one chooses to ignore the criminal acts of Rossi, often giving him a bit of a thumbs up support simply because he is the enemy of IH and then also continues to throw shade at IH/Darden simply because of a disagreement in political worldview, that is a hypocrisy I could not respect.

Hi Bob#2

You said that Bob Higgins seemed to not been of good moral character, You know i won't follow this B....T thread.

However what i can say about him is:

When i started to improve Lenr skills with a very very low level in English, i contacted him and he was a very very big gentleman to share all his understanding, all i repeat.

We have spend a long time together by a lot of emails.

Now, i was sorry to see him so sticked to DW in Assisi.

Now, how i am to judge people like him ? We all know that US people have a very strong patriotism that unites them.

Besides, that was what impressed me the most, the US Team in Assisi, as a steamroller, we Europeans by our divisions seemed ridiculous.

Quote from Cydonia

Hi Bob#2

You said that Bob Higgins seemed to not been of good moral character, You know i won't follow this B....T thread.

However what i can say about him is:

When i started to improve Lenr skills with a very very low level in English, i contacted him and he was a very very big gentleman to share all his understanding, all i repeat.

We have spend a long time together by a lot of emails.

Now, i was sorry to see him so sticked to DW in Assisi.

Now, how i am to judge people like him ? We all know that US people have a very strong patriotism that unites them.

Besides, that was what impressed me the most, the US Team in Assisi, as a steamroller, we Europeans by our divisions seemed ridiculous.

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Yes, a misunderstanding... While I do not know Bob HIggins personally, it seems that he is a very knowledgeable and capable scientist. I certainly have no indication but that he is VERY upstanding and just the opposite of Rossi..... he is a true scientist, honest, educated, knowledgeable and seems to be very trustworthy.... all things Rossi is not!

So I apologize if my post was not worded well. I believe Mr. Higgins IS of good character and so much so, that if IH was as bad as some here infer, that Mr. Higgins would not have anything to do with them!