Sounds good - the certification might at least have some sort of "sticker" and listing somewhere. We'll see how many product details are publicly available depending on the certifying agency. Here is an example:
You really don't! It will make no difference to your views...
Sometimes the believers make a
good point.
Sometimes the sceptics make a good point.
The process continues.
So Sam,
The term "sceptics" has been turned into a negative term and then made into "skeptopath" as a label for those who are deemed to be incapable of changing their minds.
Scepticism, as in checking facts, demanding evidence, and being willing to admit that I might be wrong is a good thing. Even a "believer" should be sceptical.
Scepticism is also a defense against doing stupid things, such as being conned and following incorrect and possibly dangerous beliefs, such as conspiracy theories.
Of course I agree with you that sometimes scepticism is misplaced. I could point to cases where scepticism from the scientific community has held back progess in areas such as continental drift and Cold Fusion. And sometimes crazy ideas and crazy things do turn out to be right (wow the Earth actually is a globe).
But for the sake of discussion;
If we assume that some sceptics are incapable of changing their minds ("super sceptics").
And if we assume that some believers are also incapable of changing their minds ("super believers").
So lets ignore them and focus on the middle group who have actually changed their minds.
Then how many believers have become sceptics and how many sceptics have become believers?
Of course this is anecdotal but I was initially a believer when I first read about Rossi, but then I changed my mind, now I no longer believe.
Even on ECat World some have stopped believing.
My claim would be that of those who have been willing to change their minds all changed from believers to non-believers.
Why do you think that is?
But maybe I am wrong, do you know of any cases where a sceptic has become a believer?
Then how many believers have become sceptics and how many sceptics have become believers?
In the early days there were a number of skeptics (using the word loosely) who after attending Rossi demos became believers. His original PR was good, because he carefully managed the audience at his demos so that it believed him, and managed to include a number of (out of there normal field) scientists. The beauty is that if you have a claimed nuclear reactor it would seem fair to have a nuclear scientists test it. But of course no expertise with nuclear reactors could help anyone with Rossi's device, and what was actually needed for his demos was experts in phase change calorimetry, and 3 phase AC power measurement, and then later (Lugano) experts in IR thermography. He made sure for any demo that its flaws required expertise not present in his audience.
Of course, some people asked difficult questions, or for additional measurements that would close loopholes. They were ignored or publicly called snakes and denied access.
However since those early demos all that has happened is that people originally sucked in, especially those hoping to benefit commercially, like IH, who believed the early demos were good, at some time become disenchanted when Rossi could not follow through. The clearest case was IH who spent a good amount of money to have in their hands Rossi's demo devices, and discovered when they measured them properly that they delivered power out = power in.
Rossi was, in those days, good at his job of managing audiences and seeming believable to those believers he selected.
He still operates the same way - the difference is that his audience has necessarily become much smaller and less convincing in terms of validation. Too much of the history is now out there for serious people to be sucked in. Rossi seems to have given up on demos that even appear to be perhaps real.
PS - for those new here (that is most current Rossi believers) you can find on historic threads here the exact ways in which each of his demos had loopholes. In most cases that is proven, in one case it is deduced from the fact that it would nicely explain the apparent positive result. Rossi's true genious was in finding so many different ways to mis-measure things, while convincing his audience that all was OK.
1. So that supports the point I was trying to make.
As Sam has rightly said, things degenerate into one group saying "Your are wrong, change you mind" and the other group saying "No it is you that is not open minded". Thus I was trying to sidestep this and look specifically at those who have changed their minds.
Perhaps "all" was a bit too general, but I contend that the flow of mind changing has been overwhelmingly from believers to non-believers and that flow has been increasingly one way as time has passed. For those who claim the case for believing in Rossi is weak then I think this demonstrates that weakness.
2. Call me pedantic but I object to the word "genius" being connected with Rossi, I see no evidence of genius from him in any capacity. Maybe smart or clever (more disparaging words are available but lets try and keep this civil).
It is up to Rossi and his Technology
to turn sceptics into believers and
believers into true believers.
Sam will say,
“Just wait until the next presentation, that one will be great, you’ll see, because Rossi says”, yadda, yadda
I will say wait until we have a lot of
happy customers.
Rossi has always said the Market
will be the measure of success.
Yes! Also, the certification for the SKLEP is now completed. Very good news.
It is surprising news.
I have been told by someone in the
know that there was no Safety Standard to test Rossi devices against and a new standard can
take years to develop.
So how he got the certification
will be an interesting story.
The CE mark may not, in principle, be affixed until the conformity assessment procedure has been completed to ensure that the product complies with all the provisions of the relevant directives. This will usually be at the end of the production phase. However, if the CE mark forms an inseparable part of the product, or of a component, for example by stamping or casting, the mark can be affixed at any other stage of the production phase, provided that the conformity of the product is verified as appropriate throughout the production phase.
A voluntary CE mark is not sufficient for sale in the United States or Canada, (and many other countries) for electrical powered equipment.
A 12 V skled will require CE low voltage certifications which require electrical circuit diagrams to be produced.
It is up to Rossi and his Technology
to turn sceptics into believers and
believers into true believers.
Rossi believers are already “true believers” since they accept the reality of his “technology” based on zero evidence and nothing but Rossi’s word.
Rossi appears a “genius” to someone because around him there are a lot of stupid and obtuse believers that still continue to talk of safety certification how it was the main point.
Rossi appears a “genius” to someone because around him there are a lot of stupid and obtuse believers
Yes, Rossi is a "Relative Genius". He became one when he wrote his philosophy thesis on Relativity.
From the ECW and JONP reference frames, he is a genius.
In other reference frames, he suffers brain dilation and we must take into account the electromagnetic retardation integrals.
Rossi has always said the Market
will be the measure of success.
That is not exactly true. He goes through phases of saying that, interleaved with saying that he is doing research into something even more wonderful - at which point he cannot very well invoke the market because his previous miracle has dropped like a lead stone.
Good example - the IP for which (if it worked) IH would have paid $100M, which Rossi fought a long and damaging Court battle to keep.
It has sunk without trace.
The amateur social scientist in me really wants to know whether there are any Rossi followers who don't buy into any other sort of fringe beliefs but just stubbornly adhere to Il Douche. I would be truly astonished if the faithful don't believe all sorts of other nonsense, conspiracy theories, and whatnot.
On a related topic, apparently there are QAnon followers who are buying Faraday cage enclosures for their wireless routers to protect them from (who the hell knows what) and are then complaining online that the things are screwing up their WiFi reception.
Ernest from ECW will buy safety
Certified or not.
2 hours ago edited
What's the problem? Quite often people buy products that do not carry the certification label. Drugs that can kill you for example. I would have no problem buying AR's devices if they were not certified. I think people use the lack of 3rd party testing as a divergent example. Tesla cars go up in flames despite having all the required certificates. What kind of certificates do nuclear weapons carry? Have you purchased fireworks at any time? If a product shows promise, countries like China ignore certificates imposed by governments. I and most people use many products without looking for safety labels. Did you check the certificates on your car that is well known to be able to kill you? Would you not buy AR's device if it was not certified? Call me crazy but I sure would buy them.
Even the cheapest hotel clock radio from China has a valid certification, typically UL, CE and CSA. Otherwise they would be 3 dollars cheaper and maybe kill a few people somehow.
Rossi, so far, has claimed certifications for things that were 100% unsuitable for commerce, besides illicitly transferring certifications from one company to another, and from one device to another in direct opposition to the certification purposes and intents.
What he has and does this time remains to be seen, but his track record is not good.
AR claimed the QSKL was covered by the blue container in situ machinery certification FFS.
To my knowledge, products that are certified have to…um…exist. That is a bigger challenge Rossi has yet to meet with any of his genius inventions.
