Doesn't it strike you as strange that ROSSI would take the matter to court knowing that the truth should then come out?
Not at all. You obviously have not studied Rossi grand-standing! Many people thought IH would just give in to his demands - cheaper for them than a legal action, and less distracting. It surprised me that they fought. Perhaps it surprised Rossi too?
@Adrian Ashfield
QuoteDoesn't it strike you as strange that ROSSI would take the matter to court knowing that the truth should then come out?
It doesn't surprise me in retrospect though I admit it did at the time. But Rossi knew the (e)cat was out of the bag after he actually allowed IH to REALLY test one version of it properly and he knew it didn't, couldn't and wouldn't work. The lawsuit and smoke screen that went with the original complaint had to do with complex contract and procedural matters. IIRC, Rossi acted as if all he had to prove to get paid was that his ERV, or whatever he called the crook who conducted the testing, had signed off on it. I am pretty sure he thought IH would offer a million or two dollars just to get rid of the lawsuit or maybe even more, given how juries are (they tend to glaze their eyes over or fall asleep when anything technical is discussed). But Rossi was wrong, IH filed the countersuit and then settled for Rossi getting nothing and paying his own quite considerable legal costs (millions, for sure). A good guess about the QuarkX charade is that Rossi is looking to recoup some money so he can retire, flee, whatever.
QuotePossibly the excitation was electromagnetic pulses rather than just heat.
Possibly it was pink, invisible, flying unicorns (PIFUTM). But even then, you wouldn't apply a giant heater to heat the cooling water! How does your assertion that Rossi may have used EM pulses justify the external heater?
@AA - you claim to be an experienced engineer. What is needed to convince you to read and start analyzing objectively at least the famous "Penon report" or a few other statements from Rossi available in the court docket? How can a serious person like you come to the conclusion that Rossis Megawatt Ecat plant did work as claimed and his fake sale of heat to his fake customer with fake platin sponge production and an invisible heat exchanger in the end was a true story? Any idea why Rossi (if he really had what he claimed to have) quickly agreed to settle before more details of this IH-Rossi-Doral soap opera came to light - throwing away the chance to win 3-digit millions of dollars?? So let's wait for his November presentation where we will hopefully learn how he will save the world...(again).
QuoteMany people thought IH would just give in to his demands - cheaper for them than a legal action, and less distracting. It surprised me that they fought. Perhaps it surprised Rossi too?
Seriously? You thought Darden would fork over $89 million dollars to Rossi? For nothing received except deception, steaming piles of s*itty lies, and rank, obvious fraud? How about the triple punitive damages? Maybe that too?
Seriously? You thought Darden would fork over $89 million dollars to Rossi? For nothing received except deception, steaming piles of s*itty lies, and rank, obvious fraud? How about the triple punitive damages? Maybe that too?
Not surprising they refused the $89M, but surprising at the time they claimed they would not settle.
Sorry, you are right: my previous post was wrong! I guess I've lost focus on this one...
Just think, in five year's time Rossi will still have no working technology, and AA will still be explaining to all and sundry why his stuff works. I can hardly contain my excitement.
Possibly it was pink, invisible, flying unicorns
I find Prof. Levi's 18 hour test in 2011, using water calorimetry, that he said produced as much as 35 kW, harder to explain than the imagination of an anonymous troll.
QuoteI find Prof. Levi's 18 hour test in 2011, using water calorimetry, that he said produced as much as 35 kW, harder to explain than the imagination of an anonymous troll.
Sorry but Dr. Brian Josephson is an "anonymous troll" to you? I will tell the STORY again. Do you believers see why skeptics are repetitious? Believers make the same errors over and over and over again.
Indeed, Levi's test in 2011 using liquid phase cooling only would have been very convincing and was the best performance record for any ecat claim ever. 135kW peak! >10kW sustained for many hours. All from a tiny ecat. So far so good.
So originally, Krivit visited Levi and asked to see the actual record of the data Levi had collected thus far with Rossi in early 2011. I think that was before the reported high power test, not sure. Levi could not produce it. This led to the "dog ate my homework" jokes about him.
OK, fair enough-- that high power run reported in NyTeknik was a casual experiment. So please redo it with a proper blank run and calibration using Joule heating. God knows, the device has enough heating power-- two large heaters in a small space-- one a rod deep inside the "reactor", the other that famous band that can only heat coolant. So did Levi repeat the experiment? No. Not once. Not ever that was released to the public anyway. His excuse? None. Far as I know he never discussed it. Rossi wrote back to me (I forget if email or JONP) that he didn't need to do blanks and calibrations because he "aready knew what would happen".
A couple of years ago, I contacted Dr. Brian Josephson through his Youtube channel because he was still being an advocate for Rossi. He was very courteous and responded promptly. I asked him to contact Dr. Levi and to ask him to repeat the experiment with proper calibration and documentation of the data. According to the response I received from Dr. Josephson, Levi never even responded to the email! I asked Josephson to ask again and he said he wouldn't-- that I should (ROTFWL!)
So much for the famous and illustrious Levi experiment of 2011 briefly and sketchily reported in NyTeknik. http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter…energi/article3108242.ece
The report said ONE HUNDRED and thirty-five kiloWatts. Enough to fry the people in the room and blow up the device. Which is one reason it had to be wrong.
QuoteInitially, the temperature of the inflowing water was seven degrees Celsius and for a while the outlet temperature was 40 degrees Celsius. A flow rate of about one liter per second, equates to a peak power of 130 kilowatts. The power output was later stabilized at 15 to 20 kilowatts.
As I have said several times and as I said when the original involvement of IH happened, what IH and Woodford should have REQUIRED and DEMANDED was the repeat of that specific test, with outside supervision, for example from someone like Murray or a company like Boeing. {Yes, I know, those choices are hindsight but surely they had SOMEONE other than the Swedish scientists that they could ask). It was folly to even look at much more complex and vastly harder to interpret tests like the hot cats or the ecat arrays in the so-called misnamed megawatt plant, until Levi's test had been repeated.
There are two prominent theories about how Levi was fooled, if that is what happened. One is the usual misplacement of thermocouples. But several people think Levi's flow measurement was wrong perhaps in addition to the former or by itself.
MY,
I am not interested in spending the time required to rehash history. The older E-Cats are apparently outdated anyway. Wait for the test later this month, that you said would never happen.
OK Adrian. I interpret that to mean you are unwilling to learn anything at all which could change your mind about Rossi. How long does it take to read 20 - 30 lines? It seems that with you, more clearly than with almost anyone else, Rossi-ism is a religion! Hail Rossi! King of LENR.
I do have a simple question for you. One line only .
How is possible that an inexpensive and tiny reactor that makes more than 10kW for months on a tiny amount of nickel and hydrogen is "outdated"? Please explain.
whatever happen about Rossi's technology, even if real, we should have to explain why the Doral test was a fake.
Beside that, I'm afraid that after Focardi, Levi&al, Mats Lewans, Franck Ackland, me, he ruins the credibility of few more of LENR supporters and open minds.
Anyway I want an exit, whatever it is. Something clear have to emerge in 2017, or else I'm pessimistic on LENR future in next decade. I hope the demo will answer, clearly.
Jail or throne, I want a conclusion.
Can't say I have much sympathy for Piantelli. He has claimed to have reactors running months on end with no input power. All he has to do is show proof of that to the patent office, and they would likely reinstate his patent.
I do not think the patent office does that. The US patent office would not. They are not authorized or equipped to do hands-on technical evaluations. However, if he were to show a machine like that to various people I am sure he would get a lot of funding and his problems with the patent office could be solved. I know people who could solve his problem but he has expressed no interest in meeting them.
Instead all these applicants looking to make a $, hold on to their dearest secrets, and take them to the grave. Piantelli may well do exactly that, as he is well into his 80's. In his shoes, I would say to hell with the chance of riches as I am too old now to enjoy them, so let humanity have it.
Yes. Patterson and many people have done this. It happens in cold fusion and in other fields. I do not understand why.
Well, obviously I can't track back everything you said but IMO you wrote considerably more to enhance Rossi's credibility than to cast doubt on it.
You are making a quantitative assertion here without a shred of evidence. No data at all! You have no idea how many messages I wrote or what I said. Even if you had a database of every message I wrote in every forum, you would still not be able to measure the strength or assurance of a given message, and the extent to which it enhanced or reduced Rossi's credibility. You would not know who read the messages or what effect it had.
You remind me of newspaper pundits who natter on about public opinion or what "Washington thinks" based on conversations with other reporters or some congressman in the hallway, without any basis in a public opinion poll or other meaningful data.
For example. compare your writing and actions about Rossi in 2011 to those of Krivit.
I would happy to compare anything I have written with Krivit's writing, anytime, anywhere.
With regard to that visit please note (once more!) that he went to Italy and he did not even have the presence of mind to write down what sort of flowmeter was used -- if any. I asked him several technical questions about Rossi's set up. He could not answer any of them. He made no useful observations.
He went, and accomplished nothing. Whereas I refused to go. My refusal says more than everything Krivit wrote about this visit.
QuoteYes. Patterson and many people have done this. It happens in cold fusion and in other fields. I do not understand why.
I am sure it happens to real secrets at times, simply because people are not good at anticipating their own demise. But I think it's rare and probably won't apply here. Most secrets that "go to the grave" were probably not worth much to start with.
As I have said several times and as I said when the original involvement of IH happened, what IH and Woodford should have REQUIRED and DEMANDED was the repeat of that specific test, with outside supervision, for example from someone like Murray or a company like Boeing.
That is exactly what happened. Murray and Boeing did test the equipment, both in Rossi's presence and away from it. The equipment never produced excess heat.
That is what I heard, anyway. They told me that is what the March 2016 statement meant:
http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?p=1741
I believe that is what the trial docket testimony says, but I did not read it carefully.
Perhaps you mean they should have demanded that before paying anything. I don't know the sequence of events, or when, or how much, they paid. Perhaps that is in the trial docket.
I am sure it happens to real secrets at times, simply because people are not good at anticipating their own demise. But I think it's rare and probably won't apply here.
I do not know how often people die and take commercially valuable secrets to the grave. That may be a rare occurrence. However, in commerce, corporations often keep products under wraps instead of selling them. They take their secrets to bankruptcy.
This happens for various reasons, mainly I think because corporations are afraid of cannibalizing their own market. That is supposedly why HP had no interest in selling Mr. Wozniak's computer. It happens a lot in the computer business where product life is short. In the 1980s and 90s computer store inventory would depreciate like a shipment of rotting fruit. I recall people said the value of a computer model fell ~20% per year. If you held back a machine for 5 years it was worth nothing.
I saw that happen, at companies I worked with. I visited IBM and others and saw marvelous machines that for some reason were not for sale. I guess in some cases they were struggling to make the things work reliably. In other cases they were holding gadgets off the market so they can extract maximum profit from their present model. IBM used to do that a lot, which is one of the reasons they almost went out of business in the 1980s.
Most secrets that "go to the grave" were probably not worth much to start with.
Most commercial secrets are worth little, and the shelf-life is short. The secret to cold fusion would be no ordinary commercial secret. It would be worth trillions of dollars, although probably not to whoever discovers it, if history is any guide. It will be like the discovery of the transistor, or the discovery of fire.
Yes, of course they should have asked for that test or a comparable one BEFORE giving a skunk scammer more than ELEVEN MILLION DOLLARS of perfectly good money! And yes, what you cite is what I remember from reading some of the depositions I didn't read.
Yes, of course they should have asked for that test or a comparable one BEFORE giving a skunk scammer more than ELEVEN MILLION DOLLARS of perfectly good money!
You are saying they did not do tests before paying the money? I believe they did, but perhaps those were the Levi tests. I wouldn't know.
And yes, what you cite is what I remember from reading some of the depositions I didn't read.
Perhaps you have read depositions. However, as you yourself have often told us, you have not read the cold fusion literature, and you are not capable of judging it. I mean what you call "low-powered cold fusion," where you arbitrarily define "low power" at around 1 to 10 W (it seems). You dismiss any and all results at those power levels. As it happens, Lavoisier or any other scientist in the last 230 years could have measured that level of heat with perfect confidence.
You seem to want it both ways. You repeatedly tell us the experiments are no good, and you also repeatedly tell us you have not read about them and you cannot judge them. Which is it?
AA has the right attitude with respect to Rossi. As long as your long-term memory is less than a couple of months, the man is a genius. Longer than that, he is a low-grade con man. Congratulations on your limited powers of recall. They clearly provide you much comfort.
QuoteI hope the demo will answer, clearly. Jail or throne, I want a conclusion.
And the game over?
Nooo, also this time anyway the demo will be a paramount success, and this hoax will continue per saecula saeculorum.
After sigma 5 will follow sigma 6, sigma 7, ... E-Cat Quark-Y, Quark-W, Quark-Z, ... the robotized factory... the market... a next masterpiece... another formidable partner... a new secret customer...
At least it can be said that anyone who chooses to give Rossi additional funding on the basis of this and similar demos has the information at his disposal to make an informed decision.
