QuoteI read that they held a party to celebrate the negative result even before the results were known.
Where did you read that, @Adrian Ashfield ?
Quote"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
~Upton Sinclair
Shanahan's salary depends on not blowing up himself, his lab and his colleagues as well he might if some versions of LENR really made a lot of excess heat. If I understood him correctly.
E-Cat/dog, pony/(work)horse, wow so clever very inversion
And there are people paid to meme those things. Truly we are a fascinating species hellbent on being auto-suppressive, it merely requires lacking any subtlety
So the plasma fusion community did not try to thwart funding for LENR by persuading Congress not to divert funding toward it? And they didn't make the rounds on television news programs attacking the LENR community and its researchers? You deny that these things ever happened?
You might take issue with Eugene Mallove's interpretation of the actions of some scientists at MIT, and perhaps there is some wiggle room there (although I've read his excruciatingly detailed reporting on it and am persuaded), but kind of hard to dismiss the tenacious vitriol and actions that came from the plasma fusion community with respect to cold fusion and its researchers.
They vowed to ruin the careers of anyone who even considered running an experiment and reporting on it. And they carried through with their threats. We won't forget no matter how much the likes of you would rather sweep history under the rug. And if/when LENR has "The Saint" moment, we will hold it over the head of every cold fusion obstructionist. We are many. I'll say it again: we don't forget.
And what has any of that to do with me? You are trying to force an association between myself and the 'plasma fusion community' so you can paint me with your broad 'conspiracy nut' brush. That don't work FanBoy. My objections are solid technical ones that have gone unanswered by the CF community. That in and of itself disqualifies them from receiving funding from rational funders because it indicates they aren't honestly assessing their own field. Nobody trusts a fanatic to objectively assess work relating to their fanatic object. They ignore contrary evidence and overvalue supporting evidence. In the end though, whether they have chosen well in assigning their fanaticism or not, the ability to produce 'excess heat' (or 'transmuted elements') on demand and transfer the technology to others is all that matters. (P.S. That's just another way to say they have to achieve full reproducibility.)
Display MoreSpeaking of FUD, the estimable Ruby Carat brought this very good and short (23 minute) BBC program on the topic of replicating experiments to my attention.
"90% of the time, we were unable to re-produce work in published journals" (says an AMGEN whistleblower/scientist), and, those who came up with the results, were not even able to reproduce their OWN work! The reporters of this fact were threatened with hate mail, intimidation, etc.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csvsy8
"Just because it's published in a top-tier journal ...... - don't believe it"
Another bigger issue raised there part 3 is 'incoherence'. Where papers in the same field with seemingly similar tittles have absolutely different content.
Very nice listen.
That's close to 3000 posts... Sorry, I do not have "endless" time... and I do not think it is needed. The eventual readers already got my point. And I have no doubt you will continue your work as long as whoever find it worthwhile.
I take it we are to assume that this is a tacit admission that your general statement casting fear, uncertainty and doubt on the 2,866 posts I have made here cannot be supported, and that you are unable to substantiate your allegation of FUD. It's ok to retract a statement you're unable to support.
I kind of find the "DPS" anchoring interesting though. And the way you promote it as The Meme describing the upcoming demo.
My aim in referring to the upcoming demo as a dog and pony show is primarily pedagogical. There are many people (I will not name names) who do not think very critically and accept whatever they read on the Internet or hear from their friends. They often have a hard time distinguishing between a "demo," a "test" and an "experiment." This lack of clarity of thought often leads them to interpret the outcome of a demo as though it were the outcome of a test or an experiment. Using the term "dog and pony show" helps people to think more clearly about what it is that they are discussing. The resistance of certain pugnacious members of this forum to my using the term confirms to me that this distinction is an important one to help people out with. Clarity of thought is a good thing and is to be encouraged.
Where did you read that, Adrian Ashfield?
Part of CF history unfortunately. I think it was done at MIT if I remember correctly. But the part:
even before the results were known
is not necessarily true. I think that is a memory tainted by pro-CF sentiments. As I recall the story, the party came after MIT announced they had 'proved' CF false, which is a ridiculous claim of course. So for them the results were in and 'final'. Of course the CF community disagreed.
And what has any of that to do with me?
Well, you did say that you worked on an ITER-related project and that many of your friends continue to do so. That is the community that has attempted (and in many cases, succeeded) in obstructing LENR experimentation and peer review.
QuoteYou are trying to force an association between myself and the 'plasma fusion community' so you can paint me with your broad 'conspiracy nut' brush.
Are you saying that you have no association with the plasma fusion community?
QuoteThat don't work FanBoy. My objections are solid technical ones that have gone unanswered by the CF community. That in and of itself disqualifies them from receiving funding from rational funders because it indicates they aren't honestly assessing their own field. Nobody trusts a fanatic to objectively assess work relating to their fanatic object.
Throwing out labels like "nut case" and "fanatic" is easy. I think you and your kin are obstructionists, self-interested, and greedy. The plasma fusion community pushes ridiculous multi-billion dollar projects on the taxpayers' dime knowing that in the end (50 years from now) it will not come close to competing with solar and wind. Not even new fission plants compete with solar and wind today. Now imagine how much more expensive a traditional fusion plant will be, let alone one that actually produces XH, and why does this make sense? It is pointless. An utter waste of resources. And solely a means to ensure the continued creature comforts of the plasma physicists that are already drawing on public pensions.
QuoteThey ignore contrary evidence and overvalue supporting evidence. In the end though, whether they have chosen well in assigning their fanaticism or not, the ability to produce 'excess heat' (or 'transmuted elements') on demand and transfer the technology to others is all that matters. (P.S. That's just another way to say they have to achieve full reproducibility.)
I'm pretty sure your attacks have not been ignored. I've watched it play out as I'm sure thousands of others have here and elsewhere.
Unfortunately, this is a useless argument and probably has been for a long, long time.
Most of those who do not believe Rossi, DO want LENR to be real. It is in everyone's best interest long term.
The Rossi supporters HAVE to accuse all doubters of nefarious intentions such as being paid off, etc. etc. because they CANNOT defend Rossi's words with Rossi's own actions. Therefore they must lay blame elsewhere. It must be other interests that is KEEPING Rossi from proving his tall tales. The eCat is not on the market because of any number of things but Rossi himself!
Most of those on this forum (not all) who do not believe Rossi, use math such as THH, equipment/ experiment such as Para or Rossi's OWN words and actions such as me to support their point of view.
The Rossi supporters hand waive and obsess about sentence structure, ignore the math completely or see scratches on the floor or missing window panes, because Rossi's math does not add up or they cannot defend it (or understand it), they cannot argue experiment so they ignore or cast insult to the experimenter. They cannot defend Rossi's own words, so they try to nitpick sentence structure, comma placement and then try to shift the blame on the presenter as they cannot defend Rossi. It Must be someone else's fault.
Most of those on this forum (not all) who doubt Rossi, do so because of his long history of very poor demos, tests and out and out lies and deceptions. These negative events are all shown as true from Rossi's own sworn court depositions, his own emails, his own posts on JONP and so forth. They look at history and current actions. They use logic and common sense to develop a point of view that fits the facts.
The Rossi supporters have to intentionally ignore Rossi's history, his sworn depositions, his many posts (such as customers, sold plants, factories, etc. etc. etc.) They have to ignore this because the evidence flies in the face of any logical outcome. They state "wait and see..one cannot tell the future", but ignore the "fool me once, fool me twice, fool me ..... on and on".
So for most of the Rossi doubters, he has a long way to exonerate himself from his OWN past actions, lies and deceits. But if he did, they would applaud because most indeed DO want a working LENR reactor!
However, most of the doubters will not compromise their logic and intellectual integrity by having their dream of a LENR reactor completely cloud their common sense evaluation of Rossi.
So for most Rossi supporters, they have chosen not to consider Rossi's lies, actions and deceits because it would completely remove their hope for a working ecat. They will never accept that the eCat does not work and Rossi is a con, no matter what he does because they have invested their soul into the hope of a working eCat. There desire for the eCat will and does override any logic and common sense.
And they MUST cast insult to the doubters because the valid skeptics inherently expose the believers faulty position and they know it deep down. That is why it becomes so personal.
A prime example... THH gives math showing the heat exchanger simply cannot work. Completely impersonal. Since the believers cannot disprove his math, they attach his person with insult and unfounded, unproven venom. They do this personal attack because his math attacks their personal choice of ignoring fact concerning Rossi. Since they cannot argue the math, they must lash back at the mathematician.
Look at all the posts from the believers ... almost all are simply attacking the person, the person's intention, the person's integrity, the person's motives, etc.. They contain NO FACTS at all.
Only "It seems to me....."
It is no longer a fact based debate with them...
It has become a religion to them.
There is no use arguing religion and it is forbidden on the forum anyway! So we should stop! 
Apparently, the concept “actual facts” includes anything Rossi says.
Whee did I say that? Or are you suffering from Bob's disease?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
~Upton Sinclair
This quote can be logically extended to: "his salary or that of his friends"
Surely if LENR/Rossi-tech were proven real, with his skills and background Kirk would be highly employable by all of the major companies who would be scrambling to exploit the revolutionary new field... same goes for 'hot fusion' scientists who are supposedly ignoring LENR to protect their jobs. I'm sure they'd be perfectly happy to be headhunted by new LENR companies or research institutes, who would be desperate to recruit people with expertise in physics/science/engineering.
Sadly the prospect of lucrative employability in a glorious LENR future probably does not apply to those who are merely forum advocates of LENR, however dedicated.
Not true. Their skills would be of little use. If LENR does not produce ionizing radiation (as has been repeatedly shown) and if LENR need not be contained like hot fusion, and if the mechanics are relatively straight forward in terms of materials and function, then any good multi-disciplined engineer could design and construct valuable systems. The hot fusion scientists will mostly be out of jobs, or will at least have to accept a steep pay cut, perhaps without the cushy benefits and publicly funded pensions.
QuotePart of CF history unfortunately. I think it was done at MIT if I remember correctly. But the part:
(party after negative results on LENR) That's sad and stupid! The story of LENR is much more fascinating and vastly more useful if true rather than false.
Display MoreNo, I didn't say that. You're getting Bob's disease of putting words in another's mouth.
There is little information available about the E-Cat QX at present. We have been told it produces heat, light and electricity, but for the present it will be surrounded by a jacket and the light & electricity will be converted to heat.
I haven't seen that it can run in self sustain mode for long periods continuously. Where did you see that?
To say it is not different from a chemical system when it produces excess heat of 20 Watts for a year is just silly.
Are you saying it can produce excess heat of 20W for a year without input, Wow. Or are you just assuming that the heat and input are measured accurately? Big assumption knowing Rossi's track record. How was it measured and by whom?
So far,I know of only 2 possibly 3 self sustaining system disconnect from input- F and P's boil off of 8 days, Cravens' NI week demo, and possibly Mizuno's bucket. (Mizuno didn't seem to have independent witnesses)
QuoteNot true. Their skills would be of little use. If LENR does not produce ionizing radiation (as has been repeatedly shown) and if LENR need not be contained like hot fusion, and if the mechanics are relatively straight forward in terms of materials and function, then any good multi-disciplined engineer could design and construct valuable systems. The hot fusion scientists will mostly be out of jobs, or will at least have to accept a steep pay cut, perhaps without the cushy benefits and publicly funded pensions.
Their skills would be needed to domesticate pink flying invisible unicorns.
Are you saying that you have no association with the plasma fusion community?
Well, you did say that you worked on an ITER-related project and that many of your friends continue to do so. That is the community that has attempted (and in many cases, succeeded) in obstructing LENR experimentation and peer review.
You answered your own question. I have worked on one (1) ITER-related project in my 33+ year career, and one (1) HAPL related project. Neither was a major effort for me. I am a physical chemist with expertise in metal hydrides, not a plasma physicist. Again, your writings here are simply trying to denigrate my contributions to the CF field by 'assigning' me to a pigeonhole you believe can safely be ignored. That is a conspiracy theory nut tactic. I assign the label because 'the shoe fits'.
I think you and your kin are obstructionists, self-interested, and greedy
Who knows, I might be greedy, but I'll guarantee you critiquing CF papers does satisfy that desire. Self-interested? As much as anybody else, yourself included. Obstructionist? How so? It is a part of being a scientist to participate in the technical assessments of ongoing research in areas of interest. Pointing out problems isn't obstructionist. In fact it normally viewed as being helpful, as it causes subsequent work to be more successful. So I think your assessments are off base and irrelevant to the core questions here. It is your fanaticism that makes them seem important to you.
And solely a means to ensure the continued creature comforts of the plasma physicists that are already drawing on public pensions.
Wouldn't know. Not my field. (But I kinda doubt it's true. Professional bias based on personal experience.)
I'm pretty sure your attacks have not been ignored. I've watched it play out as I'm sure thousands of others have here and elsewhere.
No, I think they've pretty much been ignored. When one of the 10 guys who claimed my theory was completely wrong admits that he's never read my papers, I've been ignored. When others who make derogatory comments about my writings get it completely wrong, I've been ignored. When another of the 10 authors ridicules conclusions from my last paper and uses them as examples of bad stuff that will be said about budding CFers in a 'course', but then can't answer a question about why I said that and has to go away and look it up, I can conclude I've been ignored. All of these in favor of unquestioning acceptance of the opinions of their CF community colleague who may be the only one of the crowd to even approach some level of understanding, but who has written a paper entitled 'My life with cold fusion as a reluctant mistress ', which clearly shows his bias.
And by the way, 'attacks' is a value-loaded term betraying your negative bias. A neutral term should be 'criticisms', but today in the era of "that's OK for you but not for me" even that term had become emotionally loaded. In science, 'critical review' is a required part of the process, and that means 'critics' and 'criticisms' are present, expected, and needed.
'Thousands'? Unlikely. Maaaybe tens. Mostly ignored though...
Not true. Their skills would be of little use. If LENR does not produce ionizing radiation (as has been repeatedly shown) and if LENR need not be contained like hot fusion, and if the mechanics are relatively straight forward in terms of materials and function, then any good multi-disciplined engineer could design and construct valuable systems. The hot fusion scientists will mostly be out of jobs, or will at least have to accept a steep pay cut, perhaps without the cushy benefits and publicly funded pensions.
No, hydrogen is tricky stuff to handle safely on an industrial scale. Why do you think my colleagues get those ITER-related jobs. They are being asked about all those things that the non-hydrogen-handler wouldn't know...
Now the plasma physicists? maybe if the LENR device is plasma-based? Don't know, I'm not one of them.
Rossi can make of his demo whatever he wants. It is his show.
I don't see any point in attempting to predict the future regarding what he may or may not do at the demonstration.
I am more interested in what has been represented about the Quark thing so far makes any sense. Not so much any discussion about the purported reaction, but whether the reaction effects match reality as we know it once it involves the real heating of objects, etc.
I take it we are to assume that this is a tacit admission that your general statement casting fear, uncertainty and doubt on the 2,866 posts I have made here cannot be supported, and that you are unable to substantiate your allegation of FUD. It's ok to retract a statement you're unable to support.
My aim in referring to the upcoming demo as a dog and pony show is primarily pedagogical. There are many people (I will not name names) who do not think very critically and accept whatever they read on the Internet or hear from their friends. They often have a hard time distinguishing between a "demo," a "test" and an "experiment." This lack of clarity of thought often leads them to interpret the outcome of a demo as though it were the outcome of a test or an experiment. Using the term "dog and pony show" helps people to think more clearly about what it is that they are discussing. The resistance of certain pugnacious members of this forum to my using the term confirms to me that this distinction is an important one to help people out with. Clarity of thought is a good thing and is to be encouraged.
Well. It is an admission that I do not have the time. It's not my full time job to trash Italian inventors on behalf of whatever...
And please stop that altruistic nonsense about having an pedagogical and educational agenda. 2953 posts... yeah! The probability of this being your prime incentive is very close to zero. DPS is a standard troll procedure meme, directly from the troll psychology schoolbook.
(party after negative results on LENR) That's sad and stupid! The story of LENR is much more fascinating and vastly more useful if true rather than false.
At that time, the emotional current was running against F&P for a couple of reasons. First, they had done 'science by press conference'. That by itself is considered a no-no. Second, when people started to fail in their replications, they were less than helpful because of IP concerns, which ticked off those who had come asking for help. So the atmosphere was sort of 'this silliness needs to be put down', thus the ''wake" as I recall it was called. Not a proud moment for 'science' IMO. Jed surely has his opinion on this too...
And please stop that altruistic nonsense about having an pedagogical and educational agenda. 2953 posts... yeah! The probability of this being your prime incentive is very close to zero. DPS is a standard troll procedure meme, directly from the troll psychology schoolbook.
Well, when the dog and pony show occurs, I'm sure we can revisit the matter.
