Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

Quote from Paradigmnoia

JulianBianchi,

I had to constrain my estimate somehow. The plasma has to be able to fit in a thin tube, probably built by hand. The electrode gap is adjustable by means of a large lever, which should imply a limit to the internal pressures/vacuums feasible.

Z-pinch tubes are cylindrical tubes made of quartz (or similar) that contain a plasma in which a high current is passed through to compress it. In other words, the Quark X is a z-pinch tube almost by definition. In the 1950s most tubes had a diameter of a few cms but then it was shown that a smaller diameter was beneficial to reach higher plasma densities when compressed. Interestingly enough, the Quark X has some dimensions that are compatible with the criteria known to lead to enhanced plasma stability.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

No neutrons, etc. seem to be coming out of the tube.

Do we know if Rossi has ever worked with deuterium?

Quote from Paradigmnoia

My general impression was that simply using the Stefan-Boltzmann equation for a plasma, which is considered to be a blackbody in this case, within a thin transparent tube, is quite easily subject to errors that can easily span orders of magnitude compared to a solid that is a blackbody of the same dimensions.

If anyone wants to work out the plasma density/pressure/temperature/frequency required to make a blackbody in the space allotted by the Quark design, please have a go at it.

As soon as a current passes through the plasma, magnetic Lorentz forces contract the plasma which forms a filament in the center of the tube with minimum pinch diameter. From what you wrote I get the impression that you would like to assume that the pressure, temperature and density of the plasma remain isotropic within the tube. This cannot be the case precisely because of the pinch. In other words I don't think that a good set of conditions exist "to make a blackbody" and indeed the Stefan-Boltzmann equation not fit for purpose.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Yes you can. It is in fact a conservative approximation of the input power (assuming Rossi's assertion about the cell itself having effectively a zero resistance is true). Think of it this way: if the cell has effectively zero resistance when in operation, then you can consider it as a good conductor (such as a wire) as an approximation. How would you measure the power in that case? By doing as Rossi has done. So why didn't Rossi just take the voltage reading across both the resistor and the cell and use both resistances in the calculation? Because he wanted to keep the specific values related to the cell a trade secret. Is this ideal for the peanut gallery? No. Is it what happened and does it make sense in that context? Yes.

If Rossi had measured the voltage across both the resistance and Quarkx, then it would be an upper bound on input power to the Quarkx (i.e. conservative):

(V(R)+V(Q))^2/R > (V(R)+V(Q))^2/(R+R(quarkx))

However, Rossi only measured voltage across the resistance, and:

V(R)^2/R<(V(R)+V(Q))^2/R

We can't conclude that what he measured is greater or smaller than actual input power. He's just measuring the wrong stuff.

Or show me your math that proves your assertion.

Quote from axil

The report was submitted to arXiv. The intent for that submission was to subject the paper to peer review comments. In fact. a revised paper was subsequently published to address some questions that were submitted in the initial gogo around. I wonder if these new questions about the paper regarding the COP calculations would generate changes to explicate the thinking behind the calculations. Is it too late to submit questions?

Why it should be too late? It's quite obvious to me that at the current state they are not aiming for publishing in any journal. arXiv is just a public directory that is used for early release of articles, and moderators of the site are not required to do peer review before accepting a paper: the only requirements seem to be proper classification and not being manifestly anti-scientific. It's quite sad the site doesn't provide any tool for commenting the article and leaving public feedback. Apparently the only way to ask for new revisions of the paper is by contacting the authors directly through their emails.

Quote from Bob

Do not ask for actual math or actual proof.

1: "Rossi says" trumps any math. Do not question what he states. "Rossi says" is equal to truth. Math is an inconvenient truth. There was a heat exchanger regardless of the math.

2: Keeping IP or Trade secrets from the competition is ALWAYS the reason why real math or real facts cannot be given. You cannot know the customer, the voltage, the resistance or anything that might actually be "proved", because the competition will immediately grab it and make an air tight patent from it! Just like they have done with the eCat, the Hot Cat, the Gas Cat, the 1MW plant etc.

3. Measuring the voltage would have "given the baby" away! Yet if "seems to me" backing into the formula finds the voltage, this does no harm to IP! You see, only if "Rossi says" the voltage, does it actually give IP away! To the believers, eCat facts are like the split slot experiment.... the facts only condense into a measurable particle when "Rossi says", otherwise they are indeterminate!

No use arguing. It is a religion.

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I would like to invite you to a more reasonable company rather than this cult of Rossi says. Care to try and organize a replication attempt of Unified Gravity device with MFMP? They have a COP of 3710, which is astounding for a direct DC electric production of around 16kW, more than enough to power a house or run a car.

The Rossi flock are not a religion. One can argue with followers of a religion to better understand their view of the world. The Rossi flock is a cult. It is utterly pointless to discuss anything with a cultist since the only voice they hear is that of their Fearless Leader.

Quote from JulianBianchi

Z-pinch tubes are cylindrical tubes made of quartz (or similar) that contain a plasma in which a high current is passed through to compress it. In other words, the Quark X is a z-pinch tube almost by definition. In the 1950s most tubes had a diameter of a few cms but then it was shown that a smaller diameter was beneficial to reach higher plasma densities when compressed. Interestingly enough, the Quark X has some dimensions that are compatible with the criteria known to lead to enhanced plasma stability.

Do we know if Rossi has ever worked with deuterium?

As soon as a current passes through the plasma, magnetic Lorentz forces contract the plasma which forms a filament in the center of the tube with minimum pinch diameter. From what you wrote I get the impression that you would like to assume that the pressure, temperature and density of the plasma remain isotropic within the tube. This cannot be the case precisely because of the pinch. In other words I don't think that a good set of conditions exist "to make a blackbody" and indeed the Stefan-Boltzmann equation not fit for purpose.

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Phase 1 Summary

The Safire project experimentally simulate the power generating reactions that occur in the Sun. The electoral reaction principle to be tested is the processes and methods that generate solar energy that are not based on gravity. Using protium, the anomalous experimental findings so far show a high coronal temperature of 3000C as compared to a core temperature of 500C. There also the production of reaction transmutation products with atomic weight of 3. There are alco 10,000,000 watt cornal like explosive discharges produced from a 1800 watt input current.

Phase 2 video

Quote from LENR Calender

Or show me your math that proves your assertion.

Assume the reactor is a wire. Then measure power of the system. V^2/R.

Quote from maryyugo

You mean they CLAIM a COP of whatever... which is not the same as having it. Not only would 16kW be enough to power thinggies like you say, but, way more important, it would do away with any need for input power of ANY SORT to the device. So, for example, it should be able to run on a glass table in the middle of a parking lot, under continuous observation for weeks or months without any input power, right? That would be very easy to test. Want to bet that test will NEVER be done?

You know that money doesn't grow on trees, right? What's with this paranoid levels of skepticism around here?

Quote from maryyugo

Want to bet that test will NEVER be done?

It wouldn't matter. You wouldn't believe it anyway. Only the market can decide this one.

Quote from maryyugo

That would be very easy to test. Want to bet that test will NEVER be done?

It's a deal but I want odds...good odds. If the test is done, you stop posting everywhere for a year. If the test is not done, I will stop posting for a month. Deal? Put your posting where your mouth is.

If only the market can prove the validity of LENR, then give it up. An energy-generating technology based on some sort of nuclear reaction will NEVER be permitted on the market without it being extensively tested, vetted and approved by regulating bodies. If the paranoid geniuses who allegedly have the technology in hand will not permit such testing, they will be limited entirely to staging phony extravaganzas in Florida strip malls strictly for the benefit of delusional cult members. Of course, we are only talking about the real world here. In your fictional universe, results may vary.

Quote from interested observer

If only the market can prove the validity of LENR, then give it up. An energy-generating technology based on some sort of nuclear reaction will NEVER be permitted on the market without it being extensively tested, vetted and approved by regulating bodies. If the paranoid geniuses who allegedly have the technology in hand will not permit such testing, they will be limited entirely to staging phony extravaganzas in Florida strip malls strictly for the benefit of delusional cult members. Of course, we are only talking about the real world here. In your fictional universe, results may vary.

Here arises the next gambit is LENR obfuscation: the safety gambit. But there is one obstacle to moving this method of obstruction forward...you have to know something about LENR to get some traction. But the naysayers are just too lazy to learn anything: ba ba ba... they just talk and make lots of noize.

Quote from maryyugo

Actually, I have been saying for a long time that someone should rig a powerful LENR rig which is designed to self heat and engage a runaway reaction. Place it in the desert, start it up from a tiny battery, and create a GIGANTIC explosion and measure the yield. That might persuade people. Lots of places it can be done safely and with today's portable instruments and extreme quality small cameras, very easy to document. Try not to ignite the atmosphere though. Plenty of hydrogen in the form of water around.

That could be done. Load a 1000 gallon tank with ultra dense hydrogen and hit it with a laser beam. BAG.

“The safety gambit”. Give me a break. How about the “is this a real thing? gambit.”

Unless your idea of marketing LENR is via spam emails from mysterious oveseas vendors, who the hell is going to buy energy-generating products that are not proven to work? The answer is suckers. Then again, there ARE plenty of them. The same folks who buy magic pills for their gas tanks and perpetual motor kits. Do you buy those things, Axil? Yeah, you probably do.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Assume the reactor is a wire. Then measure power of the system. V^2/R.

OK I think I understand where you're coming from now.

But in your world, we're just powering the rest of the system. And we're not sending any energy to the reactor (since R=0).

How do we even turn on the reactor if no energy ever goes to it? Why is it even in the circuit?

Quote from interested observer

An energy-generating technology based on some sort of nuclear reaction will NEVER be permitted on the market without it being extensively tested, vetted and approved by regulating bodies.

Then they better get going. Because if Rossi has what he has, and it produces no harmful radiation, then the longer the government regulatory bodies delay its introduction to the market, the more people they kill.