Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

  • MEMBERS PLEASE NOTE.


    There will be no more discussion of GW or accusations of insanity in this forum. It is neither a Climate Change or Mental Health discussion space. interested observer should take particular note of this, since while not the only transgressor, IO is too often the initiator of such comments. Sanctions will be used if there is any more of this nonsense.

  • Pleased be advised... this gratuitous statement hurt my feelings: "I know you will say something crazy, so do not answer...please. :)

    Quick question, mostly related to other posts of yours. It was my understanding the Rossi has not provided publicly extensive details of how the new machine works, yet you seem to be intimately familiar with said details. How is this?

  • Yes, it does rather look that way. Ever since the failed replication of F & P by Cal Tech and MIT. I read that they held a party to celebrate the negative result even before the results were known. And it goes on right up to resent times. Think what will happen to many hot fusion scientists if LENR is proven.

    I apologize if any of this has already been addressed, I am just now catching up.


    I can't speak for any other naysayers here, but I have no salary or other economic or financial dog in this debate. I would be ecstatic if LENR is proven. BUT, I am one of the lawyers who said re: the trial that a jury could split the baby, which is exactly what the settlement did.


    I have no doubt that Rossi is a con man - what do I base this conclusion on? Rossi's words and actions - not the accusations of IH, Dewey, MY or anyone else. I base it entirely on what Rossi said and did re: Doral and the evidence, primarily his depositions, made publicly available in the related litigation.


    Rossi originally claimed, in writing, that he had no interest in or relationship with JMP. Then it turned out JMP was formed at his direction and that he essentially had total control over it. HE FLAT OUT LIED ON A MATERIAL ISSUE.


    Rossi claimed, as noted by Bob, that there were robotic factories. HE LIED AGAIN.


    Rossi claimed, re: the Doral facility, that the purchaser, JMP, was purchasing the "excess" heat allegedly produced by the ecat. HE LIED AGAIN. THERE WERE NO PURCHASES, THERE WAS NO TRANSFER OF MONIES, THERE WAS APPARENTLY NO EXCESS HEAT PRODUCED.


    I could go on and on, but all of this has been documented repeatedly. The statements made by Rossi wherein he admits that there are no robotic factories, that he essentially controlled JMP, etc., etc., were either made by Rossi, under oath and under penalty of perjury, in his depositions, or were evidenced by his failure to produce any documentary evidence, e.g., payments for heat (although Rossi did manage to have some invoices forged to reflect certain purchases of materials).


    AA: If you disagree with the points that Bob, MY or I have made, surely you should be able to provide some evidence to support your position. These arguments are not ad hominem attacks. Rather you are asserting that the naysayers should trust Rossi and give him the benefit of the doubt. Why should anyone give him the benefit of the doubt when Rossi, by his own words and actions, demonstrates that he is a serial fabulist.


    As to the demo coming up, I have no doubt it will be some form of dog and pony show. Why do I believe this? If I had something that does what Rossi claims his device does, and I believed in it, and it was legitimate, I would rent a ballroom at one of the biggest fanciest hotels in New York or Los Angeles and I would invite the entire fricking world to attend. I would make sure that I invited every prominent physicist, electrochemist, etc., the networks, the newspapers and I would live stream it. Why doesn't Rossi??


    If it works, he has nothing to hide. He would immediately receive global acclaim and a shit-load of investors. I don't always agree that Occam's Razor provides an accurate answer, but this time I do. IMHO, Rossi is a fraud.


    PS. During the discussion of the trial, certain Rossi supporters warned me (and I am paraphrasing) that I was defaming Rossi and that I should moderate my language lest I be sued. I refer them to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram.

  • MEMBERS PLEASE NOTE.


    There will be no more discussion of GW or accusations of insanity in this forum. It is neither a Climate Change or Mental Health discussion space. interested observer should take particular note of this, since while not the only transgressor, IO is too often the initiator of such comments. Sanctions will be used if there is any more of this nonsense.


    Thank you Alan. Gaslighting is a favorite past time for IO, although he certainly isn't the only one here among the uber skeptics to employ this underhanded tactic.

  • @woodworker


    Welcome back!


    I don't think anyone disputes that JMP was a giant ruse. If you have read the emails between Rossi and Darden, you might get a glimpse into the motivation behind it. Rossi was clearly desperate to persuade IH to get the test underway after IH had dragged their feet on it for nearly a year. Smart move? Not so much. Justified? No. But is there a clear reason/motivation behind it? Yes, absolutely so.


    The robotics factory issue has been misconstrued by Bob and others.


    And in any case, none of the above proves that the e-Cat doesn't work, and evidence persists that it does.

  • What does Rossi's behavior in business have to do with MIT's behavior when conducting LENR research? A non sequitur

  • woodworker

    Quote

    Quick question, mostly related to other posts of yours. It was my understanding the Rossi has not provided publicly extensive details of how the new machine works, yet you seem to be intimately familiar with said details. How is this?

    I was thinking the same thing and I think I asked him that somewhere with much the same result as you got -- the sound of crickets on a quiet night.

  • IH Fanboy


    Quote

    I don't think anyone disputes that JMP was a giant ruse. If you have read the emails between Rossi and Darden, you might get a glimpse into the motivation behind it. Rossi was clearly desperate to persuade IH to get the test underway after IH had dragged their feet on it for nearly a year. Smart move? Not so much. Justified? No. But is there a clear reason/motivation behind it? Yes, absolutely so.

    The robotics factory issue has been misconstrued by Bob and others.


    Yah shoore. Rossi has been lying for six years about essentially everything he wrote on his idiotic and misnamed blog, JONP. Great strategy that -- consistent prevarication. Works for me!


    Quote

    And in any case, none of the above proves that the e-Cat doesn't work


    Of course nobody can prove a device doesn't work unless they can have access to it. Everyone who had access to ecats and tested them PROPERLY and INDEPENDENT of Rossi found that they did not work. Early on in 2011, the ecat was unavailable for testing because of breakdowns when Quantum/Australia and NASA visited Rossi's "factory". Strange because Rossi had claimed dozens of ecats and shown at least three working at once. Yet no working device could be found when qualified and well funded parties were present to witness a test. The ecat also could not be furnished to any of the many "distributors" which Rossi bamboozled in 2012-2013. The Swedish Technical Institute tested the ecat and found that Rossi was making an error in the power measurement. Typical. Finally, with millions if not billions at stake, IH's best efforts could not make the ecat work. The positive tests of the ecat were all highly error prone and incompetently designed and negligently monitored. That may not be iron clad proof but it's pretty good evidence and enough to make any investor with a double digit IQ run like hell away from Rossi.


    Quote

    and evidence persists that it does.


    Hell no, it doesn't. Only in your feverish imagination and that of Axil and maybe a few dozen weird acolytes. Steorn probably still has as many believers even as their assets were auctioned off as scrap.

  • Please follow the evidences.



    I hope Alan will bring back some evidence, even if the data available make me predict it will be hard.


    First I've been fooled by Defkalion, who probably fooled themselves, then their boss, then their partner, then Mats Lewan, and all of us.

    Then I've been fooled by Rossi (despite negative prejudivce), who started by fooling us with copper tricks and probably even excess heat, then proudly fooled Swedish partner, then Darden, Mats lewan, all ECW and me.


    I'm tired.

    Even if E-cat X is real, which I cautiously doubt, Doral (and many other moments), shows a huge level of misconducts, of fooling again and again and again his partners and his supporters.

    I cannot understand how some people who value ethic, human being, can tolerate this.

    All is about evidence.

    there is a moment when you should consider evidence, and forget about your beliefs, you fears and your hope.

    LENR is proven, Doral is a fiasco.

    Each E-cat is supported by no credible evidence of any kind, so nothing to say on it.

  • Even if E-cat X is real, which I cautiously doubt, Doral (and many other moments), shows a huge level of misconducts, of fooling again and again and again his partners and his supporters.


    AlainCo If you look at the big picture then many of the business - 'partners' and 'supporter' of Rossi are acting like hungry sharks in a shark tank. The problem is that they have to act like that, because the Ecat, if it is real, is the deal of the century (if not the best deal ever) and our economics base on competition and competition requires at least one player with inferior target attainment (here Rossi) and players in privileged positions who have already achieved a higher degree of target achievement and that are in most cases hard-hitting businessmen who try by all means to maintain their privileged position and improve.


    All is about evidence.


    Personally, I consider the November's presentation as Rossi's last chance, if he does not undoubtedly deliver what he promises (Sigma 5 Prototype on the verge of market maturity), then I withdraw my support and put Rossi in the long line of scammers. But the likelihood that he'll has 'something' is very high and him should be given the opportunity to present what he has without prejudice.


  • I have made several posts with links to Rossi's own words about Robotic factories. Not misconstrued. I suppose you need all the links again showing Rossi's own words about Robotic factories.


    I have not made many, many posts about missing widow panes (when the heat exchanger mathematically was shown not to be sufficient by THH) that did not matter. IHFB misconstrues.


    I have not made many, many posts about pipe sizes where the reams of evidence show that it did not matter in the least. IHFB misconstrues.


    I have not made huge assumptions in electrical circuitry (QuarkX) where multiple, educated posters have proven that the power measurement and COP calculations are simply wrong. IHFB misconstrues.


    I have not made the continual "statement" that the pump could provide the flow stated by Rossi, when all testing by AF has given more indication that it could not! Agreed to by almost everyone here but IHFB who continues to have faith. IHFB misconstrues.


    I have not made the continual accusations against IH about "preventing the test". They offered to test in NC in short order. ROSSI REFUSED. Then Rossi much later and AFTER Ampenergo refused to sign on, brought up the Doral Sale of Heat. IHFB states this deception by Rossi was all fine, moral and understandable and due to because of IH! IHFB misconstrues and misconstrues greatly here!


    I have not posted many posts on how "Murray deceived the public and LENR supporters" with his memo to Penon. That memo was a private request for CLARIFICATION of facts to PENON, who was paid by IH.

    It was not to the public, it did not mislead anyone. It was asking questions that were NEVER answered. Yet IHFB says this proves nefarious intent! IHFB misconstrues.


    And I could go on.


    No, like Ross who lies, lies often and lies on just about everything..... IHFB misconstrues, misconstrues often and misconstrues on just about everything! And he states I misconstrue about Robotic factories, <Xwithout providing one shred of evidence where those statements were false! Hah. typical IHFB defense of Rossi. Totally without substance and MISCONSTURES. ;)

  • My overriding memory of the previous reading was amusement at the fact you later made/still make such a song and dance about the other authors ignoring your arguments, despite having done exactly the same in your response to them. You are right that they do ignore parts - but that's no excuse for hypocrisy.


    They most important thing about the paper that Marwan, McKubre, Tanzella, Hagelstein, Miles, Swartz, Storms, Iwamura, Mosier-Boss, and Forsley wrote is that it demonstrates they have no argument of any kind to counter my CCS/ATER proposed cause of CF excess heat results. Their continued promotion of the idea they 'rebutted' my proposal shows they are pseudoscientists. And yes, whenever they or their supporters denigrate me and my idea, I may take the opportunity to respond. You certainly do when your ideas are challenged. Why do you think I don't have the same right as you?


    P.S. As I already said, I didn't ignore any of their arguments.

  • I have made several posts with links to Rossi's own words about Robotic factories. Not misconstrued. I suppose you need all the links again showing Rossi's own words about Robotic factories.


    Yes, please provide the links. Because within the context of all of Rossi's statements on the matter, it is quite clear that he is referring to a future time.


    Quote

    I have not made many, many posts about missing widow panes (when the heat exchanger mathematically was shown not to be sufficient by THH) that did not matter. IHFB misconstrues.


    I just point out the obvious. The photo is there for everyone to see. Even an eight year old child could (literally as quizzed) instantly recognized that window panes were missing.


    Quote

    I have not made many, many posts about pipe sizes where the reams of evidence show that it did not matter in the least. IHFB misconstrues.



    Of course the pipe sizes mattered. Jed kept insisting it was of a smaller size (based on Murray's memo) and therefore allegedly proved the 1MB plant did not work. It turns out, the pipe size was larger than originally claimed by Murray in the memo (which Murray made as a statement, not a question).


    Quote

    I have not made huge assumptions in electrical circuitry (QuarkX) where multiple, educated posters have proven that the power measurement and COP calculations are simply wrong. IHFB misconstrues.


    Neither have I made huge assumptions in electrical circuitry. Whoever pontificates about the QuarkX is simply guessing at this point. How can IHFB misconstrue anything here? Doth protest too much me thinks.


    Quote

    I have not made the continual "statement" that the pump could provide the flow stated by Rossi, when all testing by AF has given more indication that it could not! Agreed to by almost everyone here but IHFB who continues to have faith. IHFB misconstrues.


    The testing by AF is inconclusive because it has not been completed. Your assumption that "almost everyone here" agrees with you is not accurate. Para had to go back and read the thread when I made some assertions about the tests so far, and he came back and agreed with me.


    Quote

    I have not made the continual accusations against IH about "preventing the test". They offered to test in NC in short order. ROSSI REFUSED. Then Rossi much later and AFTER Ampenergo refused to sign on, brought up the Doral Sale of Heat.


    Read the emails. Please provide evidence for "in short order." You might be right: I just don't remember that being the case.


    Quote

    IHFB states this deception by Rossi was all fine, moral and understandable and due to because of IH! IHFB misconstrues and misconstrues greatly here!


    Why do you resort to false statements? Please provide a link to back up your assertion.


    Quote

    I have not posted many posts on how "Murray deceived the public and LENR supporters" with his memo to Penon. That memo was a private request for CLARIFICATION of facts to PENON, who was paid by IH.

    It was not to the public, it did not mislead anyone. It was asking questions that were NEVER answered. Yet IHFB says this proves nefarious intent! IHFB misconstrues.


    Again, why are you resorting to false accusations? Murray made a statement (not a question) in that memo that turned out to be provably false. Jed and others seemed to stake their reputation on that memo. It was kind of sad to see the evidence come to light later on that contradicted the memo.


    Quote

    And I could go on.


    Please do.

  • I hope Alan will bring back some evidence, even if the data available make me predict it will be hard.


    Alan is facing a problem here that arises from a fundamental asymmetry in the structure of scientific research. It was Karl Popper's fundamental insight regarding empirical research that it is logically impossible to "prove" a statement about the reality of some natural principle but it is perfectly possible to disprove it. Thus, seeing many, many white swans cannot logically prove the truth of the statement "All swans are white" but seeing a single black swan can disprove it.


    This has consequences for Rossi's upcoming demo. I can't imagine a circumstance in which any live demonstration extending over only a couple of hours would convincingly demonstrate the reality of excess heat in his system. A convincing demonstration would require a much more intensive examination of the system with the possibility of the examiners having repeated access to the system under completely known conditions. That could (and should!) take months. Since I don't anticipate Alan or any of the attendees having anything like this sort of access to the system, our expectations should be adjusted accordingly.


    On the other hand, there is a possibility that Alan or someone else attending the demo might make an observation that could totally falsify Mr Rossi's claims. That would happen if Alan spots a black swan! An instance of the sort of thing I have in mind is seen in the videos (which I am sure many here have seen ) that Steven Krivit took when he visited Rossi's facility 5 years ago or so. At about 11:30 in the video linked to below one can see plainly that the amount of steam emerging from the hose is about an order of magnitude smaller than the 7 kg/hour that Rossi is claiming. I encourage everyone here to listen to Mr Rossi on the video, make their own calculations, and then compare them to their observations. The mismatch between what Rossi claims and what is seen is a black swan!




    So we can't expect Alan to come back from the demo with anything that would convince a reasonable person about the reality of excess heat in the QX. But it is possible he may bring back evidence of its unreality. To assert all this isn't saying anything about Mr Rossi in particular ... it is just saying something about the nature of scientific enquiry.

  • AA: If you disagree with the points that Bob, MY or I have made, surely you should be able to provide some evidence to support your position. These arguments are not ad hominem attacks. Rather you are asserting that the naysayers should trust Rossi and give him the benefit of the doubt. Why should anyone give him the benefit of the doubt when Rossi, by his own words and actions, demonstrates that he is a serial fabulist.

    I do disagree with many of the "points" you all have made. Mainly they are rude and just opinion, not proven facts. I have had extensive experience in judging things like this and concluded that it is not yet possible to prove the case one way or the other.


    You claim you are certain that Rossi is a fraud and various other things, that make me doubt you are a lawyer as you say. ("I am one of the lawyers who said") Yes it has all been said before, many times. If you had read all my comments you would, perhaps, understand why I judge it foolish to be so certain at this point.


    I would appreciate it if you wouldn't drag me into this pointless debate unless you have something new to say.

  •  

    I can't imagine a circumstance in which any live demonstration extending over only a couple of hours would convincingly demonstrate the reality of excess heat in his system.


    Indeed. I mean, it's not because there's excess heat, that there's excess heat, right?

    Way too hard to compare energy in / energy out. Ah well, time to move on, folks. Anyone feeling sleepy? all this pseudo-science is so tiresome... zzz

  • It was Karl Popper's fundamental insight regarding empirical research that it is logically impossible to "prove" a statement about the reality of some natural principle but it is perfectly possible to disprove it. Thus, seeing many, many white swans cannot logically prove the truth of the statement "All swans are white" but seeing a single black swan can disprove it.


    While you eloquently convey this logical principal, it is also quite interesting and true that it is difficult (nigh impossible) to prove that "All swans are not white." The anti-cold fusion movement tends to forget this simple truth. Because if you want to prove that "swans are not black," you would need to visit every continent, every clime, and observe every flock on earth, and you still might see all white swans and miss the hiding black swan.


    The problem space is too large--infinite really because even if there were no black swans on Earth, black swans might exist on other habitable planets in the universe, and therefore you would need to visit every habitable planet in the universe to be able to safely conclude that "swans are not black."


    The analogy to cold fusion is that the critics gleefully proclaim "a ha" that smart and capable person was unable to replicate a cold fusion experiment, therefore cold fusion must not work. However, the problem space is large, the experimental parameters are many and varied, and therefore, it is difficult or impossible to disprove the existence of a cold fusion reaction.