Yes AA. Though single is not quite the right word when it consisted of 24 units and had redundancy so any ones not working could be swapped out.
There were far more than 24 units but only the four new, larger ones were used.
Since when does a plant have to have only one unit?
Enough already. I looking forward to Nov 24 when we will get something new to talk about for a change
I am fighting the urge to say that IHF would say 8/5 full.
...dang
Display MoreRe IHFB and honesty.
In the past I've had the same view as Eric, that IHFB's posts are dishonest. But, I also agree with Shane, that IHFB here is both honest and smart.
Specifically, IHFB processes all details like a terrier and answers all questions. The most common lack of honesty here shows itself by ignoring part of the argument, IHFB does not do this.
However, I also think that IHFB's posts are so misleading as to seem dishonest to any casual informed observer. I'm not a mind reader but would be inclined to reckon IHFB honest in his belief of the contents of his posts, even though they are so dishonest.
Here is a good example. Woodworker here has given a typical external view of what the Court case evidence shows. I do not believe he is in any way biassed, nor does he have any axe to grind re LENR, or any view as to whether LENR is likely or unlikely other than the commonsense idea that it cannot yet exist in a usable form or it would be big news. His view of matters is based on the legal evidence and independent of the science. That makes him less biassed because a lot of people here (including me) have strong views about the science.
He reckons this evidence shows (I guess he will correct me if I get this summary wrong: it is complex enough that I may do this):
(1) Rossi behaved fraudulently towards IH with a fake Doral customer (or else lied on oath) and test conditions allowing deceptive results (data loss, IH not allowed to inspect customer side, Penon not willing to answer questions from IH engineers).
(2) The legal evidence, because so complex with both sides accusing the other, would likely split the baby on a Jury Trial
(3) The settlement therefore (which split the baby) was expected
(4) Rossi's fraudulent behaviour is expected if he has nothing, and unexpected if his stuff actually works
IHFB views this same evidence and his judgement is different. He says the Doral test was a ruse, and does not waver in his view that Rossi most likely has working product. viewing Rossi's behaviour towards IH as shown by the Court evidence as a ruse in this way is necessary if you look at all the evidence (as IHFB does) and have to fit it into a "Rossi's stuff works, or at least could very likley work" scenario. But given the centrality and weight of Rossi's deception it is not a natural interpretation, and IMHO only possible if you start with and assumption that for some other reason Rossi's stuff probably works.
IHFB's dishonesty, and honestly, come from this perspective where he processes all this information with a very strong prior bias towards Rossi's stuff working.
regards, THH
Have a like THH. Not that I agree with everything you wrote, but because it is by far the most nuanced evaluation of my psyche made to date, anywhere ever.
QuoteHe says the Doral test was a ruse, and does not waver in his view that Rossi most likely has working product. viewing Rossi's behaviour towards IH as shown by the Court evidence as a ruse in this way is necessary if you look at all the evidence (as IHFB does) and have to fit it into a "Rossi's stuff works, or at least could very likley work" scenario. But given the centrality and weight of Rossi's deception it is not a natural interpretation, and IMHO only possible if you start with and assumption that for some other reason Rossi's stuff probably works.
Yeah but while it may be an honest opinion it is thoroughly, completely, and irrefutably nonsense. The probability that Rossi has working high power LENR almost ready for market is about the same as the chance that I will soon extract power from my patented invisible unicorns.
And if you think we will actually learn more about it from the DPS, I suspect you will be sorely disappointed.
Rossi's great success has been to organise prototype tests, conducted by friends with his involvement, that are billed as independent and give positive results.
I tend to disagree that they were friends at the time of the original tests. It appears that Levi may have become some kind of friend or at least closer acquaintance in later years based on some of the email evidence now on the public record. Matts would later write a book about Rossi and probably had some interaction with him in the years following the original two or three tests. But at the time of those early tests, these were just people that Rossi had stumbled into through mutual connections.
If both of you looked a glass half full, you would say it was 1/4 full and IHFB would say it was 5/8 full.
You nailed both him and me.
I don't think anyone here (well almost) is being dishonest.
I think we all have our opinions and what we want is definitive proof, whether Rossi will ever provide that is unlikely IMHO.
Sadly as the emotion grows and the claims become more shrill the civility and respect decreases.
Glass half full or glass half empty.
This is my take on reading through the various postings.
Theory 1:- Rossi is a fraud.
The evidence is clear in his dishonesty and evasiveness.
His trials and demonstrations are sloppy and flawed to hide his trickery.
Finally, after many years of promising he has repeatedly failed to produce a marketable device.
This is the conclusion from looking back at the evidence.
Theory 2:- Rossi is the real deal.
His dishonesty was forced upon him by dishonest partners, he is not evasive he is necessarily secretive.
His trials and demonstrations may be sloppy and flawed according to scientific standards but Rossi is not a scientist, he is an engineer.
Sure Rossi may have character flaws but In any case none of this is of any import.
The proof will be when he produces the device to market as he has promised.
From this perspective looking back proves nothing and serves no purpose.
Rossi could not possibly be putting all these years of effort in if he did not have what we all hope for. So we must look forward to the promised demonstation. That will settle everything.
And if not this one then maybe the next.
QuoteHis dishonesty was forced upon him by dishonest partners, he is not evasive he is necessarily secretive.
The defense against dishonest people is NEVER more dishonesty. Secrecy is not dishonesty. It is absurd to confuse them as in the above assertion. Rossi can have ample patent protection and vast investments if he can demonstrate conclusively that his device works. He has never been able to do it in six years. Instead, he has behaved like an absolutely classical and prototypical free energy scam indistinguishable in style and substance from the recent ones we have seen and written about, all of which are now, mercifully toes curled and belly up.
QuoteFrom this perspective looking back proves nothing and serves no purpose.
Oh right. Let's just ignore all the facts and all the history and believe Rossi simply because we want to. Looking back most assuredly serves a purpose and that purpose is avoiding another scam and the loss of millions of dollars to that inept scammer.
QuoteRossi could not possibly be putting all these years of effort in if he did not have what we all hope for. So we must look forward to the promised demonstation. That will settle everything.
Rossi put in all the years because he is a con man and he was rewarded with many millions of dollars for conning -- first from the DOD for the TE devices and now from IH for the silly kludge he foisted on them. The new demonstration will settle everything? Sure. Like the dozen or so Rossi did before settled everything?
Oh, my God! I know you are trying to be the Devil's advocate but the Devil is not that dumb!
There were far more than 24 units but only the four new, larger ones were used.
This isn't correct. Inside each of the 4 "Big Frankies" were 15 or 16 "generator units" (as Penon called them). Each of these generator units was a metal tube loaded with Rossi's fuel. Each one could be shut down or turned on separately so these are the best candidates for a unit as you are using the term,
The units in the Big Frankies were old, not new. They were made in Italy and even, I gather loaded with Rossi's fuel there. In contrast, there were 51 generator units sitting in individual containers scattered throughout the non-Big-Frankie part of the Doral plant. These units were manufactured and fueled by IH personnel in North Carolina.
According to depositions and discovery material from the recent lawsuit, all the units, both old and new, were fired up and brought online for heat production in the first 2 weeks of February 2015. Once this happened, Penon spent 3 days inspecting the site and installing his certified measuring instruments. He then left. The day after he left the Doral site was brought offline and all of the newer generator units were permanently shut down and had their cabling removed. Only after this happened did the plant start generating the data that were sent to Penon and that formed the basis of his report. For the entire 1 year test, then, the plant ran on the old reactor units sitting in the Big Frankies ... the ones manufactured and fueled by Rossi.
No. As I have said they have been answered already and I have no desire to rehash it all at length with someone as biased as Bob.
I will be interested to see how you will explain away your previous certainty that Rossi has nothing and is a fraud, if the Nov 24th test is successful.
Adrian,
Successful is a very subjective term,
It must be defined, and for the last 7 years
Rossi controls all definitions.
How about this, you, Adrian, will not be able to purchase an Energy Out> Energy In device from Andrea Rossi in your lifetime.
The situation that I wonder about is the future behavior of the naysayer crew after the LENR power source goes commercial. Will they undercut and gunboat the LENR technology even if it has been proven. This behavior will mark a connection to competing interests that seek to retain their market share. Specifically, one group that will fight LENR the hardest is the nuclear power sector. Some crew around here are connected to this group.
Oh yes? Consider the way he misquoted me to put Rossi in the worst possible light. It's what lawyers do to make their point.
If both of you looked a glass half full, you would say it was 1/4 full and IHFB would say it was 5/8 full.
if Rossi measured the glass I would abstain from an opinion.
Aldo Proia was honest and had good intentions and see what it got him
Yes, he got his investment in the ECat back, plus 10%, and still feels he has lost a great opportunity.
The situation that I wonder about is the future behavior of the naysayer crew after the LENR power source goes commercial. Will they undercut and gunboat the LENR technology even if it has been proven.
Axil,
I do not know how many times we have to say this for you to finally acknowledge it, but the "naysayer crew" would be very happy were Rossi to have something. If that turns out to be the case, IH becomes friendly fire casualty, and I personally will switch from attack mode, to rewriting his image from conman, to eccentric genius.
Then we can all debate why the hell he chose to be so dishonest, when all along he had something? Why he made up so much stuff about factories/customers, salted Kullander's fuel ash sample, chose IH over a more suitable engineering company? Why he went through such trouble, and deviousness at Doral when he could done something simpler in NC?
Better yet, we will see the genius of you few remaining Rossi supporters. You stood by your man, and saw things none of us could see....well, better strike that last sentence. 
Blind luck does not count.
Bruce H.
My memory is fading, but I thought there were 108 of the little units in the other 1MW shipping container? Fabiani said they were fired up the first day, shut down, and never used again. Also, it's always been a little confusing as to what IH built. They did put together the Lugano HT for sure though.
You have some quotes maybe? Hate for newcomers to the Rossi story, to walk away from LF thinking something that may not be correct. Especially so now, with heightened awareness due to that Press Release.
Rossi could not possibly be putting all these years of effort in if he did not have what we all hope for. So we must look forward to the promised demonstation. That will settle everything.
I don't think that is quite right. Rossi doesn't owe you anything. Sadly, it is not in his business interest to make it look too good. But he has to start marketing the device before an automated factory is finished and has to dispel the negative publicity from the Doral affair.
These things, the development of a new technology and building a factory, always take longer than people expect. Up until recently he has not been able to solve the control problem. So far it is about par for the course. It will take at east a year to build and debug a manufacturing plant and the usual suspects will soon star screaming "See, we told you the test was fake. He hasn't manufactured millions of widgets." Even though he didn't promise anything.
There is still room left for doubt but not very much. It has been going on too long and too many technical people have seen the devices working and not complained. It doesn't fit the pattern of a fraud as he refuses to take money from the general public and only deals with companies who have the ability to do due diligence. If they blow it that is their fault. He even stated up front that it was risky, like any new venture.
Somehow, I don’t think some people here appreciate the significance of a device that outputs more energy than it takes to run it (and claims to only consume small amounts of fuel over some extended period of time.) Such a thing has no need for automated factories, robotics, and other cost-cutting measures. If you can reliably build such a thing, you can pretty much name your price and the line of people willing to pay will be very long indeed.
I would genuinely like to hear the arguments for why this is not obviously true. Please explain why an essentially unlimited source of energy has to be made cheaply.
@Adrian
I know it is not quite right.
I know Rossi does not owe me anything, although he may owe some people something. 
It was an attempt to give a rough sketch of the differing perspectives. I am sure each of us has different subjective takes on everything and how significant or insignificant it is.
I am interested on why different people, who are smart, can look at this and see such polarized conclusions, otherwise we risk painting the opposing viewpoint as idiotic and those proponents not worthy of respect.
Without respectful debate this site deteriorates into pointless preaching.
Queue Mary ...
Display MoreAxil,
I do not know how many times we have to say this for you to finally acknowledge it, but the "naysayer crew" would be very happy were Rossi to have something. If that turns out to be the case, IH becomes friendly fire casualty, and I personally will switch from attack mode, to rewriting his image from conman, to eccentric genius.
Then we can all debate why the hell he chose to be so dishonest, when all along he had something? Why he made up so much stuff about factories/customers, salted Kullander's fuel ash sample, chose IH over a more suitable engineering company? Why he went through such trouble, and deviousness at Doral when he could done something simpler in NC?
Better yet, we will see the genius of you few remaining Rossi supporters. You stood by your man, and saw things none of us could see....well, better strike that last sentence.
There are at least three LENR developers who have duplicated the Rossi fuel prep method. From these people, I have seen details of what that fuel does. Rossi also provides the trigger mechanism that unlocks the power potential of the fuel. In short, my hopes for Rossi is based on a detailed understanding about how LENR works. This understanding is not based on faith, it is based on knowledge.
I also beleive that the SunCell is powered by the same type of LENR reaction that Rossi is using. There is a broad base of similar experimental and R&D experience that supports much of the claims made by Rossi. I attribute Rossi's hardened business behavior and general lack of trust to his early life and formative encounters with the mafia and the italian justice system.
