Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

IH Fanboy ,

Wong said 10 m (length) X 6.5 m (width) X 1 m (height) page 4 of your reference.

He also claimed 3.8 m² for the window outlet (1.95 m X 1.95 m), which is roughly the size of all four window panes missing.

Quote from IH Fanboy

You still left out a citation/link to Dr. Wong's claim about the container.

No, I carefully cited it earlier. See post #2522. I'm not sure how to link to that post from here,

Edit: Following a suggestion from Paradigmnoia ... here is my attempt at linking to the post Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion. (Worked! Thanks P!)

Bruce__H ,

Hover or right click select the post date/time, and the link to the specific post will appear. Open it in a new tab, if it isn't behaving nice, and then you can copy the link from the address bar on the top of the new tab. Hope that helps.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Here is the problem. You and your like take a set of circumstances and twist it like a wax nose to fit your preconceived notions.

No. I reject this as regards the present issue. Here is how you started off ...

IH Fanboy wrote:

"But upon closer inspection of the extant photographs, there were markings that seem to correspond to a large box being previously present on the floor, and clean areas along near the bottom of the door and bottom of the wall that seem to correlate to a previous presence of pipes, again casting doubt. "

Subsequent to that all I have done is direct you to the actual dimensions in the problem and ask you how you think that the marks correspond to the structure that was actually there. That is it. How can you possibly construe that as me twisting circumstances?

Quote from Shane D.

Bruce H.

My memory is fading, but I thought there were 108 of the little units in the other 1MW shipping container? Fabiani said they were fired up the first day, shut down, and never used again. Also, it's always been a little confusing as to what IH built. They did put together the Lugano HT for sure though.

You have some quotes maybe? Hate for newcomers to the Rossi story, to walk away from LF thinking something that may not be correct. Especially so now, with heightened awareness due to that Press Release.

I have figured out where I saw the information that the smaller ecat units (the non-Big Frankie units) at Doral were not fueled by Rossi. It is on Rossi's blog. Here is the exchange ...

1. Steve swatman July 23, 2017 at 12:52 PM

   Dear Mr Rossi,

   You are now analysing the small 20 kW reactors that failed immediately after the beginning of the 1 year test of the 1 MW E-Cat, so that you had to make the test with the 4 big reactors of 250 kW each of power.

   
   I know the 4 259 kW reactors had been made and charged by you.

   Were the 20 kW reactors made and charged by IH?

   Do you suspect intentional sabotage? incorrect methods of manufacture? plain stupidity?

2. Andrea Rossi July 23, 2017 at 1:40 PM

   Steve Swatman:

   
   Yes, the 20 kW E-Cats LT had been charged by IH while I was in Doral to prepare the factory. We have to investigate the reactors to understand.

   
   Warm Regards,

   A.R.

It is my supposition that Rossi arranged for the small reactors to fail because he was suspicious that IH had place dummy charges in some of them and he was afraid of being revealed as a fraud.

Quote from IH Fanboy

@Para,

We are well beyond measurement error. This is either fraud or real.

IHFB,

And your 1 word opinion?

Fraud or real?

Not what you want it to be, but what you really beilieve it is?

Fraud or real?

Bruce__H ,

You may want to have a look at 238-25 Exhibit 67. It has the water flow for the 108 reactors, big and small. Note that the flow for 60 reactors (total number in the 4 Big Cats) was 794.41 L/h, a little over half of the total 1429.94 L/h

(Not sure what "Flow In = 50, Out = 120 +> 23.65 L/h" means)

Quote from Paradigmnoia

Bruce__H ,

You may want to have a look at 238-25 Exhibit 67. It has the water flow for the 108 reactors, big and small. Note that the flow for 60 reactors (total number in the 4 Big Cats) was 794.41 L/h, a little over half of the total 1429.94 L/h

(Not sure what "Flow In = 50, Out = 120 +> 23.65 L/h" means)

Wow. I've never seen this. It appears to refer to testing at Doral in November 1 2014 which I think is before any IH personnel (except Fabiani) had arrived on scene. It appears to say that the plant is leaking water at the rate of 2 gallons per minute. That is 120 gallons per hour. What a mess!

This document lists 108 heater units -- I think there would be 72 associated pumps (24 on the "Big Cats" and 48 on the smaller ecat units). With that number of pumps on hand, circulating 36,000 L/day is easy because each pump only has to push through 21 L/h of water. This is well within their spec and makes a lot of sense in terms of design, i.e., it leaves some extra capacity for emergencies.

Now I enter the realm of speculation. I think that the emergency happened sooner than expected when Rossi became suspicious that IH had put some dummy fuel charges in some of the small ecat units. He thought they were trying to catch him out and would later ask why those units were producing excess heat when they did not have active fuel. I think that he faked the failure of the smaller units and shut them down. However that immediately put about 2/3 of the pumps out of commission and forced only 24 pumps to carry on pumping the entire load -- necessitating that they each pump 62.5 L/h. This is now far beyond the pump's rating but may be possible as Alan Fletcher has now shown. Finally, however, one of the large units had to be decommissioned and now there were only 18 pump units left. That requires a pump rate of 83 L/h and although Alan Fletcher is working hard on it I don't think that such a high rate will turn out to be possible.

Bruce__H ,

The funny thing is that Rossi supplied that Plant document (above) as proof that IH replicated his work. But in November 2014, I think the Plant was in Doral. It seems to me that it got there sometime in September 2014.

Edit: I just went over BW's deposition. The Plant arrived in Doral in December, and didn't run until February. So the Plant document must have been made in Raleigh.

Quote from IH Fanboy

@THH,

I'm skeptical of the status quo. I'm skeptical of pathological skeptics. Now with results from Alan F. showing that the same model pump used by Rossi is capable of a pump rate nearly reaching what is necessary for a 1MW heat output, you've lost one more ill-supported accusation. The sand is beginning to shift beneath your feet. What are you going to do?

IHFB

Rossi's Doral test had no oversight, Rossi controlling what happened and what results were sent, Rossi changing the system from that in the test plan, a Rossi claimed heat exchanger which could not work (I know you do not accept that, but it is technical fact), and Rossi + friends destroying evidence, Penon collecting results in a manner clearly unprofessional.

Given that, there are no shifting sands. There is a real question of how certainly the specific real operation of this setup can be decoded. My default position having looked at all the evidence would be that it cannot with certainty because of too many unknowns, but that it smells to high heaven. However specific statements made by Rossi (like the fact of a 1MW heat exchanger) can be shown false, and that then proves the Penon data false. Does it prove his device did not work to some extent? Of course not, that must, given the problematic nature of the test, be impossible.

Rossi has a genius for setting up situations where tests that provide null evidence (due to his lack of transparency), are clearly highly suspicious, are interpreted as proving that his stuff works!

You are at liberty to interpret a test like this, about which for good reasons nothing can be proven beyond doubt, as proof Rossi has what he claims. You would be wrong. You, I guess, for other reasons, believe Rossi has what he claims so you need no such proof. I understand that, but I don't have the same disadvantage, and need to fit all evidence into a "Rossi's stuff works" pattern.

Proving a negative is essentially impossible. For example, it is fact that Rossi turned up to the Hydrofusion test with a non-working device, which he claimed worked because he measured it using average voltmeter and ammeter. Measured correctly, as it was by the professional test engineers hired by Hydrofusion, it did not work.

That fact will not stop you, or guys on ECW, for finding reasons why that may be true but Rossi's stuff still works. Rossi's excuse (to IH) was that he deliberately made it not work to get out of a commitment to Hydrofusion. That was admittedly at odds with Mats's evidence of Rossi actions at the time. Another excuse is simply that this one device did not work, but nevertheless Rossi has working devices.

These excuses do not cohere, and you need a certain suspension of judgement to follow them. In your case, I guess you would point to what you see as contrary evidence, relating to why IH chose to fund Rossi, or why the Swedes (perhaps) continue to support Rossi, and ignore such negatives.

I believe non-working tests more than hype and whispers from Alan's friends, and Swedish and Bologna physicists proven incompetent at analysing Rossi tests. People are fallible, and the dream of extraordinary success can do strange things to people's judgement. For some scientists, Rossi's LENR working is I believe a similar dream. Given a charismatic Rossi they will go on believing, and their confidence will inform others, like Alan.

Looked at dispassionately Rossi's actions make complete sense if he has never had anything except a great capacity to convince others. I understand that his combination of self-belief and deception is not easy for everyone to make sense of. Some people reckon he must be fully honest about his work, in which case he must have something, or fully a scammer, in which case some of his actions, and his ability to convince others, don't make sense. I have no such idea.

People are not cut of a single cloth. And people are not always simple for others to understand. Rossi is an unusual and fascinating case, viewing purely his published statements and actions. The mixture of bravado, scientific illiteracy, and ability to inspire scientists fascinates me. You can see that whether you think his stuff works or not. So arguing from his unusual character to evidence for him having an LENR breakthrough seems to me wrong.

As for pathological skeptics. That is an insult showing a dearth of objective analysis. What matters is the arguments, not who argues them.

As for my interest here. I get bored when there is no new evidence. I find tantalising glimpses of something possibly unusual fascinating (thanks to Bocjin for introducing me to the whole electron shielding saga). I follow them up, and continue watching, but initial hopes so far have been disappointed. For me, I get great satisfaction in learning new stuff, whether it is IR thermography or the characteristics of strongly coupled plasmas. That personal exploration of physics stays with me, providing wonder and excitement, whether LENR exists or no.

The Rossi saga continues to give because Rossi's demos are so inventive. Extraordinary there should so often be enough evidence to work out how the false positive is generated. And Rossi is a fascinating figure.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

Bruce__H ,

The funny thing is that Rossi supplied that Plant document (above) as proof that IH replicated his work. But in November 2014, I think the Plant was in Doral. It seems to me that it got there sometime in September 2014.

Edit: I just went over BW's deposition. The Plant arrived in Doral in December, and didn't run until February. So the Plant document must have been made in Raleigh.

Could this be a planning document? Someone (T Barker Dameron?) is trying to figure out the parameters of plant operation at COP = 6.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Also take note that there ARE large right-angled markings on the floor of the mezzanine. It seems that your underlying assumption is that the corners of the markings must correspond directly to the corners of the encasement. It would be normal, however, to set the encasement on support beams so that air could flow beneath the heat exchanger encasement. The support beams could quite easily correspond to the markings on the floor

Please outline a set of marks on the floor that you consider would not be compatible with the presence of a heat exchanger. What if there were no marks on the floor? Would you then argue that this is also compatible with a heat exchanger in place?

I think you need to consider what sort of evidence this is that you are bringing forth. If any mark that appears or doesn't appear is evidence, in your mind, for the existence of a heat exchanger on the mezzanine then I would argue it is no evidence at all.

Dott. Rossi is back online on the JONP and continuously, he is "twisting reality".

• Andrea Rossi November 24, 2017 at 6:38 PM

  Ecat Fan:

  The official streaming of the event of November 24th, made at the Swedish Royal Academy of Engineering Sciences of Stockolm, will be put in the internet witin hours.

  Warm Regards,

  A.R.

  P.S. It has been already put on youtube by other sources, albeit in incomplete versions

Mats Lewan greggoble • 3 hours ago on (http://ecatworld.org)

[...]

The Royal Swedish Academy of Engineering Sciences (IVA) had no connection with this demo, apart from owning the conference center, but it's a normal commercially based conference center where Rossi basically rented a conference room on normal conditions. Very nice and professionally managed place.

See what Mr. M. Levan wrote:

Mats Lewan greggoble • 3 hours ago on (http://ecatworld.org)

[...]

The Royal Swedish Academy of Engineering Sciences (IVA) had no connection with this demo, apart from owning the conference center, but it's a normal commercially based conference center where Rossi basically rented a conference room on normal conditions. Very nice and professionally managed place.

It's Dott. Rossi inducing some noble stuff to his demo ...

Some as back in time with Unv. Bologna. But Unv. Bologna was NOT involved, as they stated. No, I'll not provide a link.
Search for your own.

If the CERN-Institution in Switzerland has a conference room, open for everybody to rent for some hours, in Rossi speak:

"The demo was held at CERN".

He is adding "glamour".

Was this demo hosted by the IAV?

Was this demo announced on the IAV web site?

Do you understand now what I mean?

Glad it was nice clean water~

I will be doing my next experiment in Space.

Some space hosted by my garage...

Quote from maryyugo

Rossi always seeks false associations with major universities and companies. He did it and was repudiated by U of Bologna, Upsalla, National Instruments, Philips, NASA maybe, and others I forget. It's a classical hallmark of free energy scams-- yet another that Rossi adopts. Along with meaningless certifications from agencies that allow self-certification. I am sorry nobody asked Rossi how the "certificators" he has had working with him since 2012 are doing with his original ecats and megawatt plant. Seems like the species of certificators we have these days suffers a lot of inertia. Come to think of it, nobody asked Rossi hard questions or if they did, the microphones were not in use so nobody heard them. Typical.

Well Mary,

Allen indicates that he would NOT

be a Rossi stooge, let’s wait to see what he returns with and if he in fact asked difficult questions and Rossi, plainly,

(not in Rossi Speak), answered them

My guess is no, I might be wrong

but I don’t think so, (“Charles Barkley”).