Adrian - Jed has invested man years and a lot of money supporting CF researchers and the field. He has and continues to make
important contributions and knows most of the field's macro history. He has been seminal in keeping Dr. Mizuno connected to support.
You have no right to demean this man or his contributions.
You need to stop and if you can't do that. You need to go away for good.
I thought they settled. If a scam could really be "shown", that would hardly be the case in my opionion... So to me your presentation of an opinion as a "fact" looks mostly like classic labeling and consensus cracking. Ie the frequent use of the word "scammer", and opinion presented as fact "showed him to be"
Thx for the compliment Tony. I learned that "cracking" technique from APCO. Works great...wrap the insult in a sincerity, and no one usually even notices. 
And yes, they did settle. Had the court records never been made public, I would have to take your stance. Unfortunately, for Rossi and his staunch supporters like yourself, and Adrian, they were released. After reading the man in his 3 depositions (one each for "Rossi as Rossi", "Rossi as Leonardo", "Rossi as JMP"), in his own words, caught up in his own lies, one after another after another...my judgement is no longer an "opinion", but is based on facts.
if that is the case, I would not attack others but clearify my views without bring in any ref to others.
Display More@ Shane D.,
No intention to humiliate anyone. My wording here may seem rude, because I'm using a foreign language. I apologize to anyone who may feel offended for this wording.
As for JR, from what he wrote in the past he seems to be an "Ecat insider", not just a simple "LENR insider". Anyway, I didn't say that he believed in Rossi, only that he strongly supported all the performances of his devices claimed by people other than Rossi himself.
Of course he wasn't. According to Celani (1) "Dr. Brian Ahern and Rossi were both doing work for the DoD, apparently on a related project, as recently as 2008."
So Ahern was too informed on his "competitor" to be fooled, nevertheless, according to JR, he gave him some useful credit (2): "he definitely does believe Rossi has seen anomalous energy, but he does not think Rossi has good control over it."
In any case, Ahern was not the only one to be not fooled. Last year, JR revealed (3): "There were many others in the U.S. military he did not fool. I have been in touch with them. They never believed a word he said."
It doesn't work this way. It is the claimant who has the burden of proving what he claims. In any case, JR is the only person here who can shed some more light on what happened in the real beginning, but he keeps trying to rewrite the Ecat story postponing its beginning to the Ferrara tests and the corresponding report.
I don't like to ridicule anyone, and IMO the first deserving of blame are those who was paid by the taxpayers to ascertain and proclaim the scientific truth, but missed to these duties.
Which victims do you mean? Not JR, I hope. As shown by his own words above, he was in touch with many in the US military that told him that they never believed a word of Rossi, but despite this he strenuously proclaimed the reliability of the Ecat performances for years. The victims are rather those who have believed the Ecat was producing excess heat thanks to his posts on the web.
(1) https://ecatsite.wordpress.com…the-us-navy/#comment-1897
(2) http://www.mail-archive.com/vo…@eskimo.com/msg55881.html
Ascoli,
You are all over the place here. Look, we know you believe Jed deserves some blame for the Rossi fiasco. In response to your aggressive, and persistent questioning, he has been very polite in answering each question, explain what he did, why and when, for every question you asked. Even when you implied he had not answered you honestly. He has admitted mistakes where he made them, and defended his actions when he felt that appropriate. None of this is required if him, but he volunteers it anyway. What more do you want?
It seems to me that you will not accept anything other than some public confession of guilt. That is simply not going to happen. Not because he is recalcitrant and stubborn, but because he has done nothing he should admit guilt to.
Why don't you take your talents, and put them to better use?
if that is the case, I would not attack others but clearify my views without bring in any ref to others.
You and Dewey seem determined to start a fight. I didn't attack anyone.
I stated what I thought clearly, and Jed replied that I didn't think that. That implies I'm either a liar or I don't know what I'm thinking. Whether my thought was correct has nothing to do with it.
I didn't start this and the whole thing is off topic.
You and Dewey seem determined to start a fight. I didn't attack anyone.
I stated what I thought clearly, and Jed replied that I didn't think that. That implies I'm either a liar or I don't know what I'm thinking. Whether my thought was correct has nothing to do with it.
I didn't start this and the whole thing is off topic.
Notice it was you that asked the question. (in 3122) Notice also that I did not say you attacked anyone. You should read instead of assuming things.
@ Shane D.,
Look, we know you believe Jed deserves some blame for the Rossi fiasco
You are wrong, I'm sorry.
I'm not interested in judging JR, nor in any public confession of guilt by him. I have already said that the only ones which deservers some blame are those who were paid by the taxpayers to properly conduct the scientific examination of the Ecat devices, and therefore I can only be upset with the Italian professors and public researchers in the CF/LENR field.
JR is a private US citizen and owes nothing to me. We were just talking and I already thanked him for all the information he gave me. But when he tells me something that doesn't fit reality or which is contrary to what he already said in the past, I let him know that I don't like being fooled. I do this by trying to be polite as much as allowed by my English.
As for the "Rossi fiasco", I disagree as well. It depends on the reasons for his involvement in the LENR field. What he did may have been the brightest success in the entire CF/LENR story, to the point that he deserve the admiration of everyone who understands how astounding was his endeavor, and the gratitude of the many who are still working in the CF/LENR field.
To evaluate the outcome of this story, you should ask yourself the right questions.
In the previous comment I cited a revelation from Celani about a collaboration between Rossi and Ahern that dates back to 2008. But it was an indirect voice. A more direct and explicit information about this cooperation has been provided by Celani last year in a presentations (1) in which he wrote: "To the best of our knowledge these successful experiments occurred around 2007 while A. Rossi was collaborating with B. Ahern in the United States." In a subsequent presentation in Italian (2) he specified that the laboratory where they collaborated was connected with DARPA.
So their collaboration in the frame of the DoD activities on LENR dates back to 2007. At this point, the right question to ask is: did it happen before or after the coming back to Italy of Rossi in looking for Focardi (and/or Piantelli)? Another good question is: who introduced him in a such exclusive and reserved circle as military research on a technology that was presented as a potential world-changer? And again, was it for his scientific competence in the LENR field or just for his talented PR attitude?
(1) https://www.researchgate.net/p…7f7dde8&showFulltext=true
(2) https://www.researchgate.net/p…i-e-ricerche-teoriche.pdf
Notice also that I did not say you attacked anyone. You should read instead of assuming things.
I never said you did. My final comment on this diversion.
I have every admiration for your terrier-like pursuing of salient facts. I can't follow your conclusions: in fact I still don't really understand what they are. I have my differences with Jed but he is IMHO, based on reading his posts here over several years, 100% honest and transparent. I'd trust him: even though not always agree with him. I know you are not really challenging that, but it seems like it. Also, Jed has said what he can so I can't see pursuing the matter helps.
Best wishes, THH
But I have reasons to doubt that the results of these tests were so convincing, as you said, about the allegedly good performances of the machines.
I do not recall saying those early tests were "so convincing." They were interesting. Not compelling, but a good start. I do not think they were repeated or replicated. If they had been, Rossi would be the world's first trillionaire by now.
As I have said many times, as far as I know, these test were independent. Rossi was not present. That's what the people who did the tests told me. And as I said, they used standard HVAC equipment, which inspires confidence. The gadget was on the same scale and power level as the one in the Italian factory, so this kind of equipment would have worked.
I have only a little information on this. Not enough to be sure of anything. They never agreed to go public so I have nothing to add. It was, at best, another squandered opportunity.
The latest hint that Rossi is making progress with his plans for production of E-Cats is that Mats Lewan has postponed his New Energy World Symposium.
https://new-symposium.org/2018…posium-will-be-postponed/
Lewan writes: "The main reason is that several people, including some of those who are working with the development of LENR based technologies which is the main focus of the symposium, have asked me to wait until there’s a product in the market."
As far as know, there are only two contenders claiming to be anywhere close to marketing their product. Those are Rossi abd Brillouin. BLP's Suncell is supposed to be something other than LENR.
Rossi wrote on his blog. "I cannot answer for Mats Lewan, but I think he is referring to what I told him."
I am in favor of this as it is clear the critics will only be persuaded by commercial sales that the effect is real.
The tired refrain that skeptics will only be convinced when a product on the market is ridiculous. A truly independent and transparent test by a major laboratory (and there are plenty to choose from) will do the trick. But this never happens for excuses like IP, NDAs, secret business deals, anti-LENR prejudice, and other lame nonsense. Then there is the excuse that the effect is not yet controllable or predictable so that the inventor cannot simply hand the device over to a third party with much chance of it actually working. Yet they claim they are in the process of commercializing it? Common sense says that if there is something real going on, it is a long, long way from having any impact on the world.
As for the "Rossi fiasco", I disagree as well. It depends on the reasons for his involvement in the LENR field. What he did may have been the brightest success in the entire CF/LENR story, to the point that he deserve the admiration of everyone who understands how astounding was his endeavor, and the gratitude of the many who are still working in the CF/LENR field.
To evaluate the outcome of this story, you should ask yourself the right questions.In the previous comment I cited a revelation from Celani about a collaboration between Rossi and Ahern that dates back to 2008. But it was an indirect voice. A more direct and explicit information about this cooperation has been provided by Celani last year in a presentations (1) in which he wrote: "To the best of our knowledge these successful experiments occurred around 2007 while A. Rossi was collaborating with B. Ahern in the United States." In a subsequent presentation in Italian (2) he specified that the laboratory where they collaborated was connected with DARPA.
So their collaboration in the frame of the DoD activities on LENR dates back to 2007. At this point, the right question to ask is: did it happen before or after the coming back to Italy of Rossi in looking for Focardi (and/or Piantelli)? Another good question is: who introduced him in a such exclusive and reserved circle as military research on a technology that was presented as a potential world-changer? And again, was it for his scientific competence in the LENR field or just for his talented PR attitude?
Ascoli,
Now I am really confused. Are you saying you hold out the chance that Rossi "may have been the brightest success in the entire CF/LENR story", or are you implying he was successful in fooling a lot of people?
Nonetheless, this is the first I heard of Ahern/Rossi worked together. That must have been very interesting to say the least...fire and fire. Yours is also the first speculation I read that Rossi *may* have first worked with the DOD, and then gone on to introduce himself to Focardi.
That is plausible, as Michael Melich (DOD) first introduced his wife at Infinite Energy Magazine (Macy) to Rossi in 2009. She asked him how long he had known Rossi, and he could not answer due federal laws. That may have moved the DOD/Rossi timeline back to 2007? If so, it does not matter as Melich and his wife do not seem to want anything to do with Rossi anymore.
You do know this story. I just wish you could tell us where you hope to go with it, and where your loyalties lie, etc,
Yours is also the first speculation I read that Rossi *may* have first worked with the DOD, and then gone on to introduce himself to Focardi.
This is Ascoli's attempt at speculatively piecing together a coherent account in which (a) the DoD and related agencies are shadowy puppet masters that cooked up a LENR revival in or around 2011 in the service of ulterior motives, (b) both Rossi and Jed Rothwell are smaller players in this scheme, and (c) faculty at the University of Bologna used the good name of the university at Italian taxpayer expense to wittingly or unwittingly lend credence to these machinations. I have seen Ascoli's questioning of Jed for some time now, and it does not seem to have taken any other direction over the last few years. He is all diligence and assiduousness in pursuit of the remaining details needed to fill out his already settled thesis.
I am in favor of this as it is clear the critics will only be persuaded by commercial sales that the effect is real.
This believer will be a 100 percent
convinced when A.R has happy Ecat
customers.
@ THHuxleynew,
Hi Tom,
I can't follow your conclusions: in fact I still don't really understand what they are.
If you refers to the history of the Ecat, you can't understand my conclusions simply because I still don't have any. I collected insufficient info to figure out what is the rationale of the Ecat story, as well as of the whole LENR saga.
BTW, have you some answer to the 3 questions I posed in the previous comment to Shane D.?
Or at least, don't you think they should get an answer before jumping to a conclusion on the Ecat affair?
QuoteI have my differences with Jed but he is IMHO, based on reading his posts here over several years, 100% honest and transparent. I'd trust him: even though not always agree with him. I know you are not really challenging that, but it seems like it.
I'm not here to judge his honesty and transparency. It's out of my scope and interest. I can only say that he is a very smart guy.
Collecting some more info is the reason why I follow L-F and from time to time I dialogue with those who seem to be more informed, and in my opinion JR is the most informed of all. So I'm very pleased to have his attention and have a conversation with him.
QuoteAlso, Jed has said what he can so I can't see pursuing the matter helps.
I have no objection if he says "I can't say more of what I said". It's his right to keep for him part or even all the information he has. I repeat, he owes nothing to me. But if he replies to a comment of mine saying, for instance, "I had no inside knowledge of the e-cat results. Only what was published by Lewan and in Vortex" (1), then I let him know that I don't like to be used as one of his "rhetorical punching bags" (2).
Shouldn't I?
(1) Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion
(2) Clearance Items
Eric,
I figure it is something like that too. Ascoli and I go back 5 years to ECNs. He and I played this cat and mouse game even back then. Though it was mostly about the wrong pump Levi used, and now it is all about Jed. No doubt we will both soon be told we are wrong.
Your turn Ascoli.
The tired refrain that skeptics will only be convinced when a product on the market is ridiculous.
A list of those on this forum who think Rossi has something would be very short. So ridiculous or not the statement is valid.
Just why you think Rossi is bound to demonstrate his reactors are real implies there would be some benefit to him or that he owes it to you. Neither is true.
To suggest that Rossi simply hand over a reactor to a third party for testing is what is ridiculous. Not only is the present patent system a mess and very expensive when it gets to court, but you seem to have no idea how business works. The last thing he needs is for some competitor to get his IP and beat him to the market.
Adrian , This all sounds and reads pretty much like simply copy and paste from JONP...isn’t there any detail that you would put into question or find strange as an experienced engineer? Really nothing?
