Spam12 - the market has spoken and the only thing keeping the WCS in the discussion is folks like you.
But that is why you are here isn't it?
Since you keep calling me spam12 and the moderators overlook it I guess it’s ok if I call you
Screwy Dewey
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@ Shane D.,
Shane, why you are saying this? It seems unfair to me, unless you all are looking for a single and easy scapegoat to which to attribute the entire responsibility for the CF fiasco. Without the support of the whole CF field, the Ecat saga would not even be come at Doral. Since 2007, all claims in favor of his devices have been made and supported by many esteemed professors and researchers, who were paid by taxpayers of many Countries (on more than one Continent) in order to carry on the CF/LENR research and properly assess the reality of these alleged phenomena.
Rossi did his job. He has allowed some other dozens M$ to be allocated to the CF/LENR research on top of the many hundreds that had already been spent by many governments to fund this activity.
You well know that since the beginning he attracted the attention of some expert and influential people in the field, due to mainly his PR skills (1). Ask yourself, please, what other talent of him could it have been so attractive after the failure of the TEG project? And again, which method of him should have been taught at the Harward Business School (2)? Basically, who exploited who?
(1) http://www.infinite-energy.com…ng-a-lawsuit-in-lenr.html
(2) http://www.mail-archive.com/vo…@eskimo.com/msg56432.html
Good question Ascoli. Not sure I can adequately explain being an outsider. My guess is that those who believe LENR, do the research, attend the conferences, would like to put this chapter behind them. Keep the focus on Rossi to limit the damage he has caused. That IMO was the reason for the Infinite Energy Magazine article 2 years ago. Dragging everyone else who had contact with Rossi out of the closet, and through the mud, is not going to do the field any good. Plus cause a lot of embarrassment. In the process. It would also give the skeptics yet another reason to ignore the positive developments we report on here almost weekly.
Those like yourself who do not believe in LENR, of course want a full accounting. Names other than Rossi/Penon/Fabiani...the whole bit, to prove their point. Shame them for their being such fools, and allowing themselves to be taken in by a career conman.
That is the simple explanation. Throw into the mix that Rossi may have had, or has, some small, unreliable effect, or even carried out a convincing demo or two, and it gets much more complicated.
Like I said though, maybe this is not my place to speculate on this. There are others better suited.
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Since you keep calling me spam12 and the moderators overlook it I guess it’s ok if I call you
Screwy Dewey
Sam,
You have my blessing. It would be better though were Dewey to stop purposely mangling your call sign, and then you would not be forced to retaliate. Considering both of you are read by guests, and members from all over the world, I would think you would want to look your best for the audience.
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ince you keep calling me spam12 and the moderators overlook it I guess it’s ok if I call you
Screwy Dewey
It's mildly amusing once. hence overlooked. But I suggest that anybody deliberately distorting user names should stop.
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Shane - I mostly agree with you. I do feel terribly for Peter Gluck. He invested man years in trying to help get CF to a starting line only to fall under the WCS spell.
I hope he can recover and live long enough to see a true applied engineering starting line become reality.
These incredible human cost mean nothing to the Wealthy Career Specialist - they are useful collateral / fodder along the way.
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Sam,
You have my blessing. It would be better though were Dewey to stop purposely mangling your call sign, and then you would not be forced to retaliate. Considering both of you are read by guests, and members from all over the world, I would think you would want to look your best for the audience.
Will try harder.
Apologies to Dewey
for name calling.
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Shane, why you are saying this? It seems unfair to me, unless you all are looking for a single and easy scapegoat to which to attribute the entire responsibility for the CF fiasco. Without the support of the whole CF field, the Ecat saga would not even be come at Doral.
Good question Ascoli. Not sure I can adequately explain being an outsider. My guess is that those who believe LENR, do the research, attend the conferences, would like to put this chapter behind them.
As one who often goes to the conferences (ICCF, this year in Denver by the way) and does experiments; I would say Rossi NEVER had the support of the whole CF field. Yes, there were a few but no where near the whole field.....by my count only about 6 CF workers (as defined by those who attend ICCF conferences) out of 2 hundred or so. And to my knowledge Rossi has never submitted even a single paper to CF conferences or journals. I don't think he would be well received there.
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To then admit that they were foolish and gullible is very difficult to do. Nobody wants to say they were punked.
"It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
- Attributed to Mark Twain (but he probably did not say it)
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I think I am giving balance to the Dewey, Shane D discredit Rossi campaign .
Please. Rossi doesn't need Dewey, Shane or anybody else to discredit him. He does perfectly fine all by himself. Sam12 - have you read the court transcripts yet?
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Please. Rossi doesn't need Dewey, Shane or anybody else to discredit him. He does perfectly fine all by himself. Sam12 - have you read the court transcripts yet?
The Court Case is over and have no
interest in transcripts.
It is time to move on like Tom Darden and Andrea Rossi have done.
The best to both of them.
With that said I think it would be a good idea to Shut Down This Thread.
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The Court Case is over and have no
interest in transcripts.
It is time to move on like Tom Darden and Andrea Rossi have done.
The best to both of them.
You are however interested in Rossi's claims and feel able to reach independently some judgement as to how likely they are true.
That judgement will be severely uninformed if you ignore the transcript evidence, as MANY here have been telling you!
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THH, you have to understand that 7 years of incessant lies, subterfuge, and out-and-out fraud are no reason to doubt that Rossi is on the up-and-up. That is just dwelling on the past.
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@ Shane D.,
thank you for your open and frank answer. Let me reply.
My guess is that those who believe LENR, do the research, attend the conferences, would like to put this chapter behind them. Keep the focus on Rossi to limit the damage he has caused.
This is exactly what I don't understand. Which damages did Rossi cause to the LENR research? It was nearly dead when he arrived in 2007. Look at the following reportage of a conference held in August of that year, just in the period when Rossi came to Italy to meet Focardi:
QuoteFrom http://www.infinite-energy.com…e/issue75/colloquium.html :
Dr. Michael Melich discussed “Some Thoughts on the Creation of Useful Models of CMNS Systems,” including experiences he has had associated with convincing other people that something “real” is involved in cold fusion. He identified a potentially important way to convince people that the effects might be real by appealing to “conditional probability” ideas that, in fact, form the basis of speculative arguments that can mimic human activity. Specifically, E.T. Jaynes has pointed out that within the context of probability theory, biases can and do occur. Dr. Melich and his colleague, Dr. Rodney Johnson, have used what Jaynes has suggested, quantitatively, to illustrate how biases can become dominant.
[emphasies added]
As you see, at that time it was hard to even convince people that there was "something real involved in CF". Three years later, millions of people around the world believed that a CF device capable of producing many kW of excess heat was almost ready to enter the market. So the Ecat initiative didn't cause any damage to the field. On the contrary, it has allowed to prolong for a few years the activities of those who was already doing research on LENR for about a quarter of century, allowing them to attend many other conferences all over the world.
QuoteDragging everyone else who had contact with Rossi out of the closet, and through the mud, is not going to do the field any good. Plus cause a lot of embarrassment. In the process. It would also give the skeptics yet another reason to ignore the positive developments we report on here almost weekly.
Those like yourself who do not believe in LENR, of course want a full accounting. Names other than Rossi/Penon/Fabiani...the whole bit, to prove their point. Shame them for their being such fools, and allowing themselves to be taken in by a career conman.
Believe me, it's not my intention to drag anyone in the mud. I'd like only to understand better what happened, and this necessarily requires to draw a complete picture with all the main protagonists. I think it is due to the millions who have had some hope in the reality of CF/LENR, and to the many more who have financed public research on this field for many years.
QuoteThat is the simple explanation. Throw into the mix that Rossi may have had, or has, some small, unreliable effect, or even carried out a convincing demo or two, and it gets much more complicated.
Who said that? Neither Rossi, nor the professors or researchers who tested his devices. These are just rumors. No testers spoke of "small, unreliable effects". From the beginning, they only reported huge effects, controllable at demand. There is no room for uncertainties.
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This is exactly what I don't understand. Which damages did Rossi cause to the LENR research? It was nearly dead when he arrived in 2007. Look at the following reportage of a conference held in August of that year
Three years later, millions of people around the world believed that a CF device capable of producing many kW of excess heat was almost ready to enter the market.
Where do you get such ideas? It was not "nearly dead" see: Between November 27 and December 2, 2005, 107 scientists, inventors, engineers, journalists, and students from nine countries came together, to meet, socialize, and exchange ideas about cold fusion (CF) and low-energy nuclear reactions (LENR), in Yokohama, Japan during ICCF12–the twelfth of a series of international conferences on condensed matter nuclear science. The "conference" you site in Aug of 07 was before Rossi and was not a "conference" but a local colloquium and the report you give shows "50 or so attendees "
You might find it interesting to search the LENR-CANR.org library and you will find very few papers about Rossi and most are just popular news items with no scientific merit.
Where in the world do you get millions of people believed You are just spinning tells. Try to stay with the facts.
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Ascoli65 -
notice that Rossi only had something like 60 people at his last "demo" and the IVA did not like him even being there. However the ICCF meeting have held steady at around 100-300 each event for years. (although the ones in Russia were low do to travel restriction placed on Americans with security clearances).
You clearly have your understanding of acceptance backwards.
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You are however interested in Rossi's claims and feel able to reach independently some judgement as to how likely they are true.
That judgement will be severely uninformed if you ignore the transcript evidence, as MANY here have been telling you!
I did follow Abd Lomax Cold Fusion Community blog who covered
the Rossi vs Darden case as well as anyone.He showed that Rossi did
not look good in the transcripts.
But it also showed that I.H where not
the brightest of lights.
So I do take that into consideration
when judging Rossi and Darden.
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So I do take that into consideration
when judging Rossi and Darden.
Not sure what you are judging with IH. They took a risk, invested, and lost. However, they are still supporting several "main stream" LENR researchers. I see they have only helped the field with their financial support of some of the other researchers (some even still) some of which were supported prior to Rossi. I do however think Rossi has severely damaged the field and cast a shadow over it. I do not see that the net results of his actions have helped the field. I am afraid that many more people now judge the entire area of LENR as nothing but errors and a sham due to his actions. The public normally only thinks of the most recent events and now paints the entire LENR field with the same brush as the Rossi.
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The notion that millions of people around the world have even the remotest awareness of Rossi’s little con game much less believed anything in particular about it is even more decoupled from reality than the delusions of his most ardent supporters. Ascoli is now an official member of the “what are 3-orders-of-magnitude among friends?” society.
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Ascoli,
OG has made a good point. Judging by the attendance at ICCF's and other CF venues (which he of all would know first hand), LENR interest has remained steady through the Rossi era.
IMO however, there could be an argument made that Rossi brought high public attention to the field, that quiet conferences never did. He surely caught my eye in Jan 2011. That attention he attracted, may have spawned SKINR, definitely MFMP/LFH, and helped rekindle research efforts in Japan, and India. Maybe spurred on the Russians, and helped maintain ENEA funding for Celani/Violante until they retired. Or possibly even helped those like BEC/BLP to attract more investments. In particular, I remember Piantelli/Nichenergy being resurrected with a big infusion from an "angel investor" due the heightened awareness Rossi brought.
If I am right, the question then is whether Rossi on the whole was a positive, or negative for LENR? That may be too early to know yet. No doubt he will hurt LENR's public image as any conman would, especially so with the scientific mainstream. But in the long run, if any of those that got a funding boost, or an inspiration leading to their own Ni-H research, hit pay dirt, then who knows, maybe the conman will have his place in science history?
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The Court Case is over and have no
interest in transcripts.
It is time to move on like Tom Darden and Andrea Rossi have done.
The best to both of them.
With that said I think it would be a good idea to Shut Down This Thread.
Why would it be a good idea to shut down the thread? Because it continues to draw attention to Rossi's lies and frauds? You say that you have no interest in the transcripts (and I assume the depositions), but you seem willing to accept Rossi's word and version of events as true. It seems to me that a person who took a person's word as evidence of their technological successes would at least want to know how often, and to what degree, did that person previously lie and commit fraud regarding their prior technological "successes." And yes, Rossi would like to move on and, just as in 1984, he would like to rewrite history in order to completely erase the entire IH / Doral debacle. We have always been at war with Oceania!
