The babble has taken over again. Sigh.
This entire thread is devoted to reporting the babblings of an eccentric nutter, who mainly talks to himself, often in the guise of a female (yes, much like maryyugo). If you read the first post, the whole point of this embarrassingly long thread is to take the piss out of the aforementioned weirdo (no, the other one...)
Why anyone would try to um, swim upstream, and then get mardy, is beyond me.
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And that's why ONLY HE AND HIS TEAM will be allowed to have access. As it already seems, Rossi and his "team" has a lot of experience with fraudulent actions. So they will surely cover any evidence, that their reactor does not produce, what he claims. And being the only one having access to the reactor, they will surely falsify all data they can ....
No matter what Rossi does it would still be easy for the customer to detect fraud. All he need do is compare his utility bills before and after Rossi installs his kit. Most manufacturers are well aware of their overheads. They would have to be really stupid not to notice increased energy costs.
This should be framed and hung on the wall of every babbler.
It outlines how Rossi cab sell energy at a loss, using reactors that don't work, and so defraud his customers.
Priceless.
People can put it right next to the picture of the Doral heat exchanger. What, the camera ran out of film? Dagnabit!
Display MoreYou don't have to believe anything and yet be interested in following LENR.
The babblers think Rossi is guilty until proven innocent and also that that is impossible. It is not a logical position.
The believers think Rossi is innocent until proven guilty, but in general lack the experience to know how long it will take to reach the market. As a result, they become disillusioned.
There is sufficient evidence that LENR has been demonstrated at low COPs to remove reasonable doubt that the process is possible. A commercial LENR reactor has yet to be demonstrated and is required for the process to meet general acceptance.
The best approach is to wait for more evidence and not jump to conclusions.,
"The best approach is to wait for more evidence and not jump to conclusions." REMEMBERING THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO GIVE AR THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, REGARDLESS OF THE EXISTENCE OF ANY EVIDENCE THAT IS CONTRARY.
Just wanted to complete that phrase for you AA. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming that somehow got accidentally dropped.
Can I add the "pathological believer” definition?
Something like... someone that after 10 years of unfulfilled promises still believes and support any Rossi's says.
Any news about "robotized factories" already built or under construction, an empty promise I find (every year) from 2012 ?
We should not exaggerate. A "pathological believer" does not believe regardless of contrary evidence, they just always believe in giving AR, and only AR, the benefit of the doubt.
I for one am looking forward to seeing what Rossi has up his sleeve. He seldom disappoints. I suspect his friend (Giovanni?) from the old country, who helped him set up JMP, is helping him set up a *customer* scenario. Probably scheming right now to make it look legitimate. I do not think it will be nearly the scale of deceit as Doral though. But I suspect it will be more complicated than the Stockholm QX DPS, since there is a customer involved.
Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.
And just because when I was a lowly summer associate at O'Melveny & Myers and a senior partner severely beat me up about this, "since" and "while" are temporal, "because" or "as" is causative. I have never forgotten that very painful lesson, although I still don't understand split infinitives.
Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.
Right, except there is a history those assumed facts are based on. Maybe by law that is inadmissible, but here in the court of LENR-Forum, it is. And yes, I know you are just having fun with this, and so am I.
Dewey Weawer just a question...
can you explain me in simply words why TD accepted to close the lawsuit in that way (leaving to him a lot of money) instead of put this man in front of US justice for all those falsehood and deceptions you quoted, having already in hand all necessary evidences?
Immediately after I would have sued him in court for fraud, damages...
Dewey, I am sure you have already answered this, but, if not, let me jump in. Hunter, settlement on the terms proposed was a good deal for IH and avoided the possibility, however remote it may have been, that AR could have won at trial. Let me explain my reasoning:
1. Per the settlement, IH and AR executed mutual walk-aways, neither owing the other anything (I am ignoring, just as AR seems to be, the worthless IP returned to AR).
2. That meant that IH was out the original $11.5 million or so, plus their legal fees and expenses, let us say another $6.0 million (lawyers like to distinguish between fees, which is what you pay me to do legal stuff, and expenses, which is what you reimburse me for faxes, copier charges, over-night delivery, auto rentals, plane fare, hotel rentals, expert fees, court reporter fees, etc). I would estimate IH's expenses at not less than $.5 million.
3. If IH prevailed at trial on the main suit, the one filed by AR, but not on the cross-complaint, the one IH filed to recoup their initial $11.5 million, then IH would not be on the hook for the additional approximately $300 million that AR was seeking. So far, this result is no better than the settlement. I don't recall if the original agreement between AR and IH had an attorneys' fees clause, but if it didn't, then IH, even if winning on the main suit, would not be entitled to attempt to force AR to pay IH's attorneys' fees and expenses. I will discuss below if the agreement had an attorneys' fee clause.
4. If IH prevailed on both the main suit and on the cross-complaint, then IH would be able to attempt to force AR to pay back the initial $11.5 million. And if the agreement had an attorneys' fees clause, then IH would be entitled to attempt to force AR to pay IH's attorneys' fees and expenses.
5. So best case, IH wins on everything and then attempts to collect. You will notice that I use the word "attempt" repeatedly. I am not a Florida bankruptcy lawyer, but I am somewhat familiar with some of its basic provisions, which tend to be very debtor friendly. For example, if prior to the end of the trial, Rossi borrows as much as he can on all of those condos, maybe up to 90 percent of the equity, and then takes all that cash and buys himself a really nice home, say worth approximately $11 million. Under Florida bankruptcy law, if he makes that nice new expensive home his primary residence, that home, and all that it represents and cost, is immune from his creditors once he files bankruptcy. Sure, his creditors might get the condos, which have not got a lot of equity as he stripped it all, but his primary asset, the one worth all the money he scammed from IH, is immune to attachment, foreclosure, etc.
6. He gets to keep it all. So, really, the best case if IH wins at trial is that they are in the same place as they ended up in the settlement. Balance that against the risk that the jury goes whacko (a legal term) and AR wins, resulting in IH owing him a shit-ton (another legal term) of money, and settling, especially on these terms, is a no-brainer.
Now, just for the hell of it, and because I know the "benefit of the doubters" will ask, let's talk about why AR settled.
1. He gets to keep his $11.5 million.
2. If he goes to trial, all of the bad stuff about him gets put on the record, Jones, Day, Reavis, Pogue & Satan get to cross-examine him, and if his lawyers manage to restrict the scope of cross, Jones Day can call him as a hostile witness in their case in chief, and believe me, they will crucify him and make him cry. They are very, very, very good and he has left a paper, audio and video trail of lies, betrayal, fraud, etc. with which they would have confronted him. I would have paid to fly out there just to watch.
3. The trial record would be available to everyone, not just the parties. And no, it would not have been sealed (although there might be some minor proprietary information sealed).
4. Although I consider it highly unlikely, a jury might find for him, at which point Jones Day would ask the court to ignore the jury's verdict, overrule the jury and decide in favor of IH. This very, very rarely succeeds, but, if the Judge determines that AR is a lying sack of excrement, he could overrule the jury. This would be one of the very few cases I can see that happening. Additionally, even if the jury decides that they like AR and give him victory, they still get to decide the damages. They may not totally believe AR deserving of $300 million, especially as AR has yet to deliver the goods. But let us assume they award AR the whole nine yards, then IH appeals. I don't know under Florida law whether you have to post a bond, in the amount of the awar, for the appeal. That differs state by state. But let us assume that IH appeals. The standard for appeal is, grossly simplified, generally either that the judge made a mistake of law that affected the verdict or the jury was so loony tunes (another legal term) that the evidence admitted did not support their verdict. Based on the depositions and other materials publicly filed, I could see an appeals court reversing a jury verdict in favor of AR.
5. So, AR has to consider that, even if he wins at trial, it could be a long time before he sees any money, if he ever does. What if AR loses on the cross-complaint? Well, as I discussed above, Florida bankruptcy law is very favorable. But, a bankruptcy court could, and IMHO in this case would, determine that the transactions whereby AR looted the condos to finance a new expensive, hopefully attachment free primary residence, was a FRAUDULENT TRANSACTION, with the court then saying, please Mr. IH guy, take the house. My pleasure.
6. So AR balances the risk of losing his money, having all of his lies, frauds, etc. publicly exposed and generally get spanked against the $11.5 million in the bank. Slam dunk decision for AR.
If you have any questions or comments, post here or send me an email -- [email protected].
I for one am looking forward to seeing what Rossi has up his sleeve. He seldom disappoints. I suspect his friend (Giovanni?) from the old country, who helped him set up JMP, is helping him set up a *customer* scenario. Probably scheming right now to make it look legitimate. I do not think it will be nearly the scale of deceit as Doral though. But I suspect it will be more complicated than the Stockholm QX DPS, since there is a customer involved.
His arm, which I am sure is a manly man arm, well tanned and rested.
Sorry, couldn't resist being silly.
From what I've read, TD knew that the Johnson Matthey deal had not materialized. Further, he stated he didn't care if the generated heat was simply dumped. The main interest was whether the plant actually performed.
It seems that IH were enthusiastic about the 1 MW plant when woodford visited and as they got ~$49 million as a result it is not clear they lost money on the whole deal.
For someone who claims to be as financially sophisticated as you do, your last comment surprises me. If IH received any moneys from Woodford, those almost certainly would have been either capital infusions, e.g., stock or membership purchases, or loans, e.g., traditional loans or some other form of debt instrument, e.g., convertible preferred notes, where the notes were convertible into stock. In any case, the alleged $49 million would not be revenue. A company does not lose or make money as a result of a capital infusion or a loan. A company makes or loses money, generally, from operations. Any such $49 million would not show up on an Income/Expense statement (although interest thereon would), but would show up on a Balance Sheet. Just surprised.
Display MoreThe babblers think Rossi is guilty until proven innocent and also that that is impossible. It is not a logical position.
Perhaps your confusion here is that you do not understand weight of (inductive) evidence, and the importance of induction in reasoning (and particularly scientific reasoning). There is copious evidence to show Rossi a fraud, and that many of his claimed working devices do not work. Logically, within a deductive framework, it is still possible that some devices do work - though in that case Rossi has been very careless in not showing them to people who could properly validate. In fact you can never prove Rossi's devices don't sometimes work, obviously. I predict that you will always stay in a state of deductive uncertainty and therefore (for reasons that are less clear to me) support Rossi.
Most people go by induction - extrapolating from known evidence. By that measure Rossi has all the cards stacked against him, ticks every box (including past history) for a vapourware merchant. Ignoring such abundant evidence means yet get a false "I don't know" conclusion. That is bad reasoning. Taking pas evidence into account, because many different starnds point the same way, you get a very low but technically finite chance that some of Rossi's devices work. Though it would require real contortions to fit his maze of reversals and moving goal posts into a scemario where basically his stuff works.
The believers think Rossi is innocent until proven guilty, but in general lack the experience to know how long it will take to reach the market. As a result, they become disillusioned.
That is however not good reasoning, and not good inductive logic. Why suppose without evidence that somone has a world-beating invention which is still 7 years after first demo unproven, when they have shown themselves to be a liar, delivered provably non-working machines to IH masquerading as working due to a measurement error, etc, etc? I find it really difficult to follow believers on this one.
Aw, cut AR some slack and give him the benefit of the doubt (but don't give him any money -- that would be an unwise choice).
Display MoreI know, I read but it was just a defensive and late action, a counter-sue "light" mainly based on chicanery without focusing to the core of the issue:
"to demonstrate to the court that it was a fake and it doesn't work not producing the promised XH"
urging the court to perform an its own legal check on a sample of the alleged "reactor" using own qualified and independent technicians.
Under the risk to be unmasked the "inventor" would have escaped immediately, abandoning.
Courts don't do that. You are expected to make your own case, the court doesn't make your case for you. Also, the cross-complaint was sufficient for the needs.
In this kind of controversy the standard approach based only on two side experts reports means that nobody wins, a sure stalemate as happened.
US laws (like in other countries) shall have a solution to solve these cases, throwing light on the truth.
From Wiki about "expert witness, in England, Wales and the United States":
"The tribunal itself, or the judge, can in some systems call upon experts to technically evaluate a certain fact or action, in order to provide the court with a complete knowledge on the fact/action it is judging. The expertise has the legal value of an acquisition of data. The results of these experts are then compared to those by the experts of the parties."
Not in the US (with some extremely rare exceptions, e.g., determining if someone is mentally sound, or able to represent themselves in a trial). England and Wales, I don't know. But I do know that England and Wales don't have the same laws we do, or the same procedures.
Apologies for the seriatim posts, I am just catching up on the thread. Interesting, spell check seriatim and the closest it had was Maserati.
The "pathological believer" can be defined pathological because he believes to what he calls “evidences” that are not evidences at all.
He doesn’t understand differences between a “says” (or an unproved claim) and a solid scientific really independent evidence.
Woodworker, from what you described Florida is a sort of paradise for thieves, cheaters and liars and Florida justice a kind of roulette.
It's almost clear why years ago "the great inventor" has escaped in Miami and has taken refuge there, where the impunity for scoundrels and rascals substantially exists.
No matter what Rossi does it would still be easy for the customer to detect fraud. All he need do is compare his utility bills before and after Rossi installs his kit. Most manufacturers are well aware of their overheads. They would have to be really stupid not to notice increased energy costs.
But assuming a real (independent but gullible) customer, not another Rossi-controlled set-up, Rossi wouldn't be trying to cheat the customer. He'd want them to get what was promised or at least definitely over unity results, so they can credibly say that his tech is real and he can reap the investments that would follow.
He might even allow credible power measurement and proper checking of the input (from customer supply) and output (to customer's process).
How then to ensure the customer's bills are reduced? By smuggling in energy to the 'plant' to which only he has access. You can store a certain amount of chemical energy in a container of course... and 'unexpected difficulties' could mean Rossi delivers a lower output and COP than advertised (but still over unity) to make the stored fuel last longer.
Ideally (for Rossi) there'd be a second cable running off a separate supply (e.g. in plain sight under the guise of being just for the 'remote control' comms) to provide the 'excess heat'. Otherwise, watch out for regular 'maintenance' visits from Rossi in a large car or van which parks up close to the unit, all shielded from view of course to 'protect the secrets'... or some excuse which means he needs to exchange the entire shipping container after the first few weeks, and then some contrived early end to the test after a few more weeks...
He could then crow about the tech having been 'proven' by a real customer, even if it was only just over unity and for a short period.
Can think of other possible methods to smuggle in 'excess heat', and also plenty of ways to detect/prevent any attempt to do so - kinda depends on how much control Rossi has over the installation and access. He'd be very unlikely to go ahead with anything but a fake customer, IMO, unless he can control the situation sufficiently to be able to minimise risk of detection.
But the point is that even with a 'real' customer who checks their bills carefully and declares at the end that they saved money, Rossi could still have been faking the results.
Rossi does not need such complexity. He chooses followers who are totally uninterested in or incapable of measuring power.
A good story late at night in a smart restaurant (as we heard from Marci's revealing blog is Rossi's speciality) is worth a thousand measurements. As Rossi would say; that is just Fake measurement.
Woodworker, from what you described Florida is a sort of paradise for thieves, cheaters and liars and Florida justice a kind of roulette.
It's almost clear why years ago "the great inventor" has escaped in Miami and has taken refuge there, where the impunity for scoundrels and rascals substantially exists.
You should watch the documentary film ‘Cocaine Cowboys’. According to that, Miami and it’s economy was built on illicit money to a large degree.
Bob - its better than that. R begged IH to invoice JM for the "heat". TD refused to do so and, intentionally, not a dime was exchanged for anything there.
Customers will soon be lining up to buy heat from Rossi and his Technology.
