Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

Quote from JedRothwell

Well, if the heat were real, the company would need a heat exchanger. That is, an industrial scale ventilation system, big enough for a very large kitchens in something like a hotel or commercial bakery, with 33 of the largest stoves and ovens you can buy (100,000 btu models - 30 kW each). That calls for massive hoods inside and 4 ventilation units on the roof, each about 10 feet tall. You couldn't miss 'em!

You can't make heat disappear. Conservation of energy . . . There are no endothermic processes that could absorb that much heat, except melting tons of ice, and no one saw truckloads of ice delivered every day, so that didn't happen.

Rossi did briefly claim there was a magic endotheric process, before going on to make up the invisible heat exchanger story.

Jed,

That is classic Rossi,

He invents some steaming raft of turd story,

Waits for engineers to shoot it full of holes,

Then his posse of believers comes to his rescue with multiple possibilities of virtually impossible combinations of ridiculousness that it absolutely boggles the mind.

Rossi himself NEVER once explains, defends, suggests or indicates what really happened, he just lets the BS expand on itself until the faithful settle on the least foolish and start to really believe it.

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I have to say that I almost agree with AA here. All of us I am sure agree that it is perfectly okay to attempt to borrow money from a bank and, to document your credit worthiness, forge a bunch of paperwork showing you have millions in assets (which don’t exist). Except I should point out that such behavior is one of the federal felonies for which Paul Manafort is currently on trial. And it is clearly okay according to AA to try to persuade someone to give you hundreds of millions of dollars for a revolutionary invention and, as proof that your revolutionary invention works, create a fake company as a customer, arrange for fake officers and forge invoices to show sales from you to the fake company.

I and several others have been surprised that Rossi has not been prosecuted for the fraud and also all the activity he engaged in or pretended to engage in which should have been licensed, "permit-ted" or otherwise done with approval from a state agency. Someone actually tried to interest the AG's office and several regulatory agencies but got little response. They are apparently frying bigger fish and their barbecue grille is full. The priority of fleecing investors with high tech claims for relatively modest amounts is low. Still, they did accept the complaint, IIRC, so maybe some day ...

WW: You claim to have read the Doral documents. I have my doubts. IIRC, the agreement that originally governed the relationship between Rossi and IH required Rossi to prove that his widget worked, with the proof to include the widget working for a year. I don’t recall that there was any requirement for a customer at all (anyone please correct me if I am wrong here). Rather it was Rossi who decided that he needed to move to Doral and to have a customer. Why, the customer requirement, and choice of customer, was driven by Rossi – he absolutely needed a fake customer.

Correct. But the plot thickens.

Rossi desperately wanted to do this one year test - and get his $100M from IH. IH offered to do this test (or any test) on their premises so that they could check it and ensure no trickery but Rossi would not do that. He, it seems, wanted to do a test on premises that he controlled under his terms. So he wrote to IH pointing out that having a genuine big company customer for real power from his system would be a wonderful PR opportunity, and saying he had found a company willing to do this, but IH needed to agree quickly or they would not do it. No talk of the contractual test at this point.

IH agreed to this proposal, which then morphed into the contractual long term test but with various Rossi alterations to the test setup, and IH unable to inspect all the the test setup due to"company confidentiality" reasons. Rossi claimed to IH that this company was Johnson Matthey, whereas in fact it was a Rossi-controlled shell company doing nothing except issuing [EDIT requests for] invoices to IH for power, and pretending to be JM. So you can see that Rossi as often was speaking truth: his shell company was very concerned to preserve confidentiality for many reasons, not least of which was to preserve the fiction that it was actually some independent of Rossi company making real use of the heat.

Rossi might in fact have though he was doing IH a favour with this bogus test, which would indeed be good PR if managed as Rossi would have done. But IH were uninterested in good PR unless and until they had satisfied themselves they had working LENR to sell, and that never happened because Rossi's reactors only worked in the bogus test setup given to them by Rossi. The problem for IH was that they actually believed this bogus setup (which had been used and validated by 5 Swedish academics and Levi) for a long long time. The "accidental control" described by Darden in his deposition showed clearly that the testing method was wrong (and Thomas Clarke and others here, e.g. Paradigmnoia, had given the reason, in fact, tragically, long before this). So IH were initially deceived by Rossi and his impressive set of academic validations which, however, turned out provably wrong.

IH motivation throughout this period is pretty clear. IF they could get Rossi's stuff to work, they were prepared to pay Rossi whatever was needed to keep him on board. If it turned out to be a hoax they wanted to pay nothing. They thought there was no way Rossi could get a positive from the long term test if his stuff did not work, and in any case, if it did not work, they would be in a position to intervene and sort things out.

Rossi out-witted them. He managed to run a long-term test that could be turned into the contractual test, but under conditions where IH had little control over it, and all the validation was done by those friendly to Rossi (Penon, Fabioni) on a setup that only Rossi understood.

From my POV that was IH's very big mistake, and they certainly paid for it. They could in fact have insisted on more thorough inspections and test setup validation early on. With that on record, Rossi's legal action would have been much more difficult. Why did they not do this? They had spent $10M on the hope that Rossi's stuff did in fact work. They had it in their hands. While that remained even a 10% possibility they could not alienate Rossi, however much they distrusted him. The contract they had signed made their interests, trying to make stuff work, and Rossi's interests, totally unaligned. IH were foolish in thinking that if Rossi's stuff did not work he could not possibly try to claim the $100M.

Bottom line; all those involved with Rossi have accepted doing things on Rossi's terms, trusting him, or half-trusting him. That has proved disastrous for them all.

Quote from THHuxleynew

Rossi claimed to IH that this company was Johnson Matthey, whereas in fact it was a Rossi-controlled shell company doing nothing except issuing invoices to IH for power, and pretending to be JM.

Slight correction: The shell company issued requests for invoices. That is, letters saying "please bill me for heat." Rossi wanted to pay I.H. for heat, I presume because that would be legal evidence the heat was real. I.H. did not invoice the shell company. By the time this happened, I think they realized Rossi was trying to scam them.

Quote from THHuxleynew

The problem for IH was that they actually believed this bogus setup (which had been used and validated by 5 Swedish academics and Levi) for a long long time. The "accidental control" described by Darden in his deposition showed clearly that the testing method was wrong . . .

The believed the early experiments, but I do not think they believed the Doral test. They complained about it to me and others while it was happening.

Quote from THHuxleynew

Bottom line; all those involved with Rossi have accepted doing things on Rossi's terms, trusting him, or half-trusting him. That has proved disastrous for them all.

I think that is a good summary.

I also think I.H. underestimated Rossi's chutzpah. I was astounded when Rossi filed suit after the test, and I think I.H. was also surprised. I figured he would take the $11 million and run. I have heard it ended up costing them a lot of money to fight the lawsuit. I hope it cost Rossi all of his ill-gotten gains, but I wouldn't know.

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From my POV that was IH's very big mistake, and they certainly paid for it. They could in fact have insisted on more thorough inspections and test setup validation early on.

IH's big mistake was to pay Rossi up front and to commit to a bizarre and faulty contract. They never vetted Rossi and his claims properly to start with. before giving him money- $11.5 million (!). In view of all the red flags on the internet and just from common sense and established science, they should have done all their vetting and especially very assured testing before committing to anything. Of course, Rossi would never agree to it but IH would have saved years and millions of dollars. Many millions. The Rossi-IH story is classical and typical of high tech scams and particularly energy production scams. Anyone who believed Rossi and his promoters and testers after November 2011 was extremely gullible. That includes Darden and the Swedish professors and others who failed to be bothered by the fact that none of Rossi's tests were performed without his participation and none were properly calibrated and examined for sleight of hand type of methods of altering the apparent energy output.

Had it not been for the empty reactor incident, Darden might still be unsure about Rossi's conning and fraud. IMHO of course.

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

If you had read the other side of the story, rather than just relying on IH and this thread for your info

You are wrong. Woodworker is relying on sworn testimony from Rossi himself, and documents and letters signed by him. Not I.H. Documents such as the request for invoices described above. Rossi did not dispute that he issued these, even though they were direct evidence of fraud. You said you read the lawsuit documents, but that cannot be true, because you do not even realize that what Woodworker said came directly from Rossi himself.

I do not think you read the Penon report either. If you did read it, you did not understand it. You also do not understand that the heat exchanger did not show up in photos, and that the mezzanine could not have supported it. If you had reviewed the lawsuit docket you would have seen abundant proof of this. (Of course you would deny this proof even if you did see it, because Rossi tells you it isn't so, and you automatically believe whatever he says. The point is, you would not mistakenly ascribe it to I.H. when it came from Rossi.)

Quote from seven_of_twenty

Had it not been for the empty reactor incident, Darden might still be unsure about Rossi's conning and fraud. IMHO of course.

Nope. The nonsense you see in the Penon report convinced everyone at I.H. that Rossi was a liar long before the Doral test came to an end. I mean, for example, every day showing exactly the same flow, even days when the people at I.H. knew the reactor was turned off. Plus they knew perfectly well that 1 MW of heat in the building would cook everyone in it, and they could see it was cold and people were wearing sweaters.

They tested it extensively in their own facility. They knew it wasn't working. The Doral test was a last-ditch effort. I recall they said something to that effect in the lawsuit documents. I do not think it cost I.H. much, if anything. I think they figured, why not give Rossi one last chance.

Regrettably, and despite the fact that I admire I.H. in some ways given their present efforts, I must agree with the rest of your message.

I think I recall the flow meter was taken out before IH could examine it and it was the wrong one for the specifications. We are talking just hours after the so called "test" (i.e. sale of heat to fake customer) without "chain of "custody" to verify what was shipped was actually what was used in the system. Things like that sure puts up a lot of red flags to question trustworthiness and transparency.

The thing that got me was the day after day of zero pressure. Obviously a improper meter or they did not know the difference between gauge and absolute meters .... and if it was showing 0 ALL the time then it was off since it never showed changes in the atmospheric pressure due to weather variations. ... and if really 0 gauge then it would NOT have allowed for steam flow...... unless there was a hidden and un monitored pump on the other side of the wall - which raises all kinds of faking methods that would be questionable. (how did a hidden pump keep the pressure 0 to all those digits day after day even with power loss days.

Quote from JedRothwell

Nope. The nonsense you see in the Penon report convinced everyone at I.H. that Rossi was a liar long before the Doral test came to an end. I mean, for example, every day showing exactly the same flow, even days when the people at I.H. knew the reactor was turned off. Plus they knew perfectly well that 1 MW of heat in the building would cook everyone in it, and they could see it was cold and people were wearing sweaters.

They tested it extensively in their own facility. They knew it wasn't working. The Doral test was a last-ditch effort. I recall they said something to that effect in the lawsuit documents. I do not think it cost I.H. much, if anything. I think they figured, why not give Rossi one last chance.

1. August 2, 2018 at 10:15 AM

   Dr Andrea Rossi:

   1- what happened to the 1 MW plant of the 1 year test made for IH, after the settlement?

   2- why did you abandon its technology?

   3- do you think that your Ecats will be industrialized before the hot fusion plants like the ITER?

   4- are you going to make more public tests of the Ecat?

   Regards,

   CC

2. Andrea Rossi August 2, 2018 at 12:54 PM

   CC:

   1- we disassembled it in all its components to study all the problems for the evolution of the technology, from which the QX and the SK series have been born

   2- because it was not mature to be given to a Client for use, it needed our team on it 24/7, which makes no sense for a plant to be given to a Client. Enormous problem emerged, as well as solutions that allowed the new generation to be born.

   3- yes

   4- No. We are focused exclusively on the industrialization. The prototypes tests phase is over.

   Warm Regards,

   A.R.

AR not consistent- Remember he originally said he used the parts for other devices.

He also prevented IH access to the device at "the end of the so call Test" and took it apart before all the plumbing could be examined. And all that before the court case settled. It seem to be backwards to me. If you wanted to convince IH that it worked and if it truly did work, then he would want IH to examine it. But no, he quickly dismantled it so it could not be available as evidence. Seems strange since it was AR that needed to prove it worked. Sure seemed to me that he was trying to hide things instead of showing it together and continuing to work. And why would a real customer getting free energy (IH never billed them) just fold the same day?

And I never understood why JMP needed a heating tape under the insulation for a pipe giving them steam. Sure doesn't look "honest" and above board if you really wanted to show something worked.

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

What did the sealed flow meter show at the end of the run. I don't recall.

There was no sealed flow meter.

Quote from oldguy

I think I recall the flow meter was taken out before IH could examine it and it was the wrong one for the specifications.

Rossi tried to take it out, but the people from I.H. stopped him, and took possession of it. They already knew it was the wrong one for the specifications. Rossi never hid that fact. You can see it in the Penon report. Not only was it the wrong kind, it was mounted in a half empty gravity return pipe, so the numbers from it were meaningless. I am sure they were not exactly the same every day. It shows the same flow rate even on days when the machine was turned off.

"2- because it was not mature to be given to a Client for use, it needed our team on it 24/7, which makes no sense for a plant to be given to a Client. Enormous problem emerged, as well as solutions that allowed the new generation to be born."

Rossi finally admits with his statement, that he never sold any 1 MW plant to a customer....he seems to not be able anymore to handle all his BS claims or simply is getting old and suffers from amnesia...

(Rossi (?) on his own blog): No. We are focused exclusively on the industrialization. The prototypes tests phase is over.

Just to add my bit to the "Rossi self-inconsistent" list.

A prototype is something technically identical to the production item but maybe costing more to produce etc. It is absolutely needed, even with mature technology, for reliability and user tests before tooling for production. (and after that a production prototype would normally be needed for more tests).

The last and best demo of the e-Quack (QX) was not even a prototype in this sense. It included an oversized (same as output power) PSU that required manual intervention in the middle of the test. Taking Rossi at his word, both problems would need to be addressed before success in making a prototype, let alone a production prototype. Of course if that has happened an identical test with the real PSU and power measurement on input side would be oh so much more convincing and get Rossi his Nobel prize (or at least be well on the way to doing that).

That was a few months ago. The SK is even less mature, and not known.

Rossi, here, is stating that a prototype in technology 5 years old, with fully working, units already produced X 100, and capable of a successful 1 year test (the Doral plant) is not adequate for production.

Whereas a prototype not yet fully working (PSU + manual intervention) a few months ago is now technically identical to that needed for production.

AA: if you'd watched Rossi for a while this conundrum would be quite familiar to you, and as an engineer you will understand the issue. Go figure.

Rossi presents these little difficulties because he just does not care that technically his claims are all over the place. Some here have speculated that, deliberately or not, this strategy works to his advantage. the people who stay interested in his work and support him are those whose belief in RossiSays is greater than their technical knowledge in the analysis of tests. This is a self-selecting fliter for both supporters and investors that prevents Rossi interacting with people who will reject him before contributing to the Miami condos (investor) or becoming faithful internet followers (supporter).

That sounds harsh (to a Rossi fan), but it is undeniable that Rossi-controlled apartments have done well throughout the development so far of the e-cat. Clearly Rossi's claim that he has mortgaged his house to fund e-cats (which for purpose of this post we are treating as true, like all other Rossi claims) has not prevented his accumulating other capital independent of the e-cat business.

(RossiSays on blog): we disassembled it in all its components to study all the problems for the evolution of the technology, from which the QX and the SK series have been born

And another straw in the wind.

Viewing the QX/SK as an "evolution" of the e-cat technology is quite bizaare. There is to my knowledge absolutely no commonality except the flakiness of testing which stays constant.

E-cat (Doral): solid phase catalyst, Resistive coil heater

QX: vapour/plasma phase catalyst. Electric arc heater. Plasma at 20,000K.

Perhaps, AA, as an engineer, you would like to comment on this rather surprising evolution?

In terms of industrialisation you would think that a solid catalyst device with resistive heating was a good deal more understood and easier to make reliable than a vapour-plasma phase device with arc heating. It took 50 years development to get fluorescent tubes reliable.