Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

  • Not using radioactive materials and not making dangerous radiation wold be enough to stop inspectors from interfering.


    Sure, it would.


    But... If Rossi actually developed nuclear reactors - that is - something generating energy from nuclear reactions - this would be subject to stringent checking and testing from every possible angle. Rossi CLAIMING there was no radiation, there were no radioactive materials would not cut it.


    So the question is whether when Rossi sells this new heat source everyone believes its power comes from nuclear reactions. Difficult to see how that could be avoided?


    THH

  • But... If Rossi actually developed nuclear reactors - that is - something generating energy from nuclear reactions - this would be subject to stringent checking and testing from every possible angle.

    You are not looking at the big picture.


    The government wouldn't even know that Rossi had installed a p;ant to supply heat for months afterit started. If it was working successfully do you really think they would shut it down? Obviously they would measure the radiation level and not rely on Rossi's word. Insane to think otherwise.


    Imagine their embarrassment that DOE had actively tried to shut down research in the area and were convinced that it was bogus science.. That hey had wasted so much money on hot fusion, solar and wind power. That the noisy AGW crowd would think that it would save the world. Etc.

  • The government wouldn't even know that Rossi had installed a p;ant to supply heat for months afterit started.

    Only a large factory run by a major corporation would need 40 MW of heat. Are you seriously suggesting that a major corporation would install and operate a thing like this without informing state and local officials? Without getting a certificate? On what planet would that happen? As soon as the public found out, everyone responsible would be arrested, and the entire top management would be forced out. It would be one of the biggest scandals in corporate history.


    If it was working successfully do you really think they would shut it down?

    Yes. Emphatically. A 40 MW reactor that operates by unknown principles, that has never been safety tested, and has no regulations or license would definitely be shut down. Not only that, but the entire area would be evacuated, with hundreds of police cars and fire trucks, as a precaution.


    Also, as I said, the NRC would definitely want a say in the matter. You seem to deny this is a nuclear reactor, although you have not said where the energy might be coming from. Any technically knowledgeable person would assume it must be nuclear, since there is no chemical fuel and no chemical reactions. You apparently think the NRC would roll over and play dead, but is not how Federal agencies usually act. See what I wrote previously:


    Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion


    Obviously they would measure the radiation level and not rely on Rossi's word. Insane to think otherwise.

    That's the least they would do! You cannot operate equipment without a certificate in any state, and there are no procedures in place to issue a certificate for this machine. You can't even operate an elevator without inspections and a safety certificate.


    This is the 21st century, not 1600. The public will not allow the reckless operation of large-scale unknown technology in a populated area. For that matter, after one unexplained explosion, Hokkaido University banned all cold fusion research, on any scale.

  • Yes. Emphatically. A 40 MW reactor that operates by unknown principles, that has never been safety tested,

    Of course it will have been tested and the client may even want to view a test. They will certainly assure themselves it is safe. As Rossi has stated, they plan to start slowly, probably with a MW or two.

    Corporations are not keen to ever get the government involved, I doubt they would inform the government of early trials.

    You think you know how corporations work, but you don't.

  • You are not looking at the big picture.


    The government wouldn't even know that Rossi had installed a p;ant to supply heat for months afterit started. If it was working successfully do you really think they would shut it down? Obviously they would measure the radiation level and not rely on Rossi's word. Insane to think otherwise.


    Imagine their embarrassment that DOE had actively tried to shut down research in the area and were convinced that it was bogus science.. That hey had wasted so much money on hot fusion, solar and wind power. That the noisy AGW crowd would think that it would save the world. Etc.

    Adrian, taking you at your word that you were an engineer with experience in these areas, I know that even you realize your statements above are ridiculous.

    I think the key point of this whole discussion is that releasing a commercial product would require an extensive testing period using a working prototype by federal government approved agencies. We know this testing is not being done because Rossi just decided a few days ago that the SK was working, so it could not have been under extensive testing by the authorities. Rossi's supposed strategy of just releasing it to commercial customers is an absolutely absurd proposition, which can only be believed by a completely delusional or technically ignorant person. Since this strategy is obviously not really happening, nothing else can be believed that is coming from Rossi's blog and sock puppets.

  • Of course it will have been tested and the client may even want to view a test.

    Gee, do you you think they may even want to view a test? May even??? Again, what planet do you come from? Here is a partial list of others who may even want to view a test. No, actually "may want" is the wrong word. They will demand to see thousand hours of tests conducted by independent agencies, and hundreds of thousands of pages of documentation. That is their job. Anyone who installs equipment that has not gone through these steps will end up in prison.


    Every Federal and State safety and regulation agency in the U.S., starting with the NRC.


    The ASME, which writes all of the Federal and state regulations.


    Every national laboratory and military laboratory on earth.


    Every major university laboratory. No one will allow the use of this device until mainstream academic scientists are sure they understand how it works, and what the theory is.


    Every insurance company, presumably through U.L. No one will be able to insure one of these things until the insurance companies give them a green light. That will not happen until the academic scientists, the NRC, the ASME and the others do their jobs. These jobs are not optional. They are mandated by laws.


    Every potential customer. A customer who does not do this, and which does not wait for all of the above agencies and institutions to do their jobs, would risk catastrophic lawsuits and expenses high enough to bankrupt any company, the way the Fukushima disaster bankrupted Tokyo Electric Power Company. That was the largest and was the most wealthy power company on earth. A company is not going to risk bankruptcy and to save 20% on the cost of heat. Individual employees and corporate managers are not going to destroy their careers and run the risk of prison sentences to save 20% on the cost of heat. And why should they? There is no point to it. Installing and operating one of these machines would prove nothing and accomplish nothing that you cannot do better with a 100 W laboratory device.


    In any case, I am sure the 40 MW machines do not exist. I am sure the 1 MW machine did not exist. It was fake. You would see that if you read Rossi's own report, but you will not read it, so you will go on with your delusions.

  • Rossi's supposed strategy of just releasing it to commercial customers is an absolutely absurd proposition, which can only be believed by a completely delusional or technically ignorant person.

    Yes. If the SK were a laboratory bench experimental device that produces a few watts, it would make sense to release it to commercial customers. They would evaluate it, and begin planning ways to commercialize it. They would begin negotiating with Rossi for commercial deals. This is similar to the way AT&T sold the first transistors to big companies, and sent samples to Los Alamos and other leading labs.


    That would be a conventional approach with a newly discovered, patented device.


    Building and installing kilowatt and megawatt scale devices would be a crazy strategy, violating common sense, countless regulations, and running tremendous risks with no benefit. No sane company managers would do it. Perhaps you could find some kooky person with a private company who would do this, but as soon as the authorities found out, all hell would break loose.

  • Corporations are not keen to ever get the government involved, I doubt they would inform the government of early trials.

    So, you think they would knowingly violate dozens of state and Federal laws? And risk a catastrophic accident? They would surely be sued by people in the surrounding area once it became known they were doing this, probably for ruinous sums of money. Even if years later the machine was shown to be safe, they would face lawsuits now.


    Why do you think the individual managers would be willing to take enormous personal risks, just to save the company 20% on the cost of heat? Would you do that?


    You think you know how corporations work, but you don't.

    I think you are the one who does not know how corporations work. Or how ordinary people work. No one risks personal ruin and prison sentence to save his company 20% on heat.

  • Every Federal and State safety and regulation agency in the U.S., starting with the NRC.

    Sure, if you wanted to delay the installation by a decade.


    All the client has to do is assure himself that it is reasonably safe. You think you are the only one capable of doing that? He can't lose much money as he is only paying for delivered heat.


    You still not come up with a plausible example of how the 10 kW SK might be dangerous. If one small SK exploded it would spray non toxic elements around and quit working. You still think it doesn't work, so why are you getting so excited about it?

  • Sure, if you wanted to delay the installation by a decade.

    This not up to me. It is not up to Rossi, or the customer. This is how our laws work. This is how society is run in the 21st century. The public demands a high level of assurance that new technology will be safe.


    You cannot simply ignore laws and regulations. You will get into deep trouble, with the police, with regulators, and with lawsuits from the people living nearby.


    All the client has to do is assure himself that it is reasonably safe. You think you are the only one capable of doing that? He can't lose much money as he is only paying for delivered heat.

    Do you seriously think the client would defy the laws? The client would face instant ruin from lawsuits, if not a prison sentence. Do you know any licensed engineer who would casually break the law, with the certain knowledge that he will lose his license at least, and end up in prison at worst? No executive or president would casually okay a measure save 20% on heat, knowing that the company will certainly face billions of dollars in lawsuits as a result.


    Do you have any notion of what would happen when the police, the people living nearby, and the mass media found out???


    Do you think Boeing would fly ordinary members of the public in untested prototype airplanes? Or that Toyota, Google or Uber would start selling self-driving cars to anyone who wants to try one? Do you think the government would let them do that, or it wouldn't notice? The newspapers wouldn't hear about it?


    You still not come up with a plausible example of how the 10 kW SK might be dangerous.

    1. You are talking about 40 MW, not 10 kW. That's 4,000 times bigger.


    2. You -- and Rossi -- have no idea whether a 100 W SK might be dangerous. Rossi has not exposed rats and other test species to long exposures to the thing. He couldn't have; he just finished invented it! According to him, and you.


    Rossi claimed that his previous reactors often went out of control. He just finished this one, so how does he know it will not also go out of control? How many hours of testing did he do with previous devices before they went out of control? (Actually, nothing went out of control. He was lying, to bring fake demonstrations to an abrupt end, but let's pretend he was telling the truth.)


    Assuming the energy is real -- which I do not believe for one second -- you and Rossi have no idea where it is coming from. The most likely source is a nuclear reaction. You deny that, and evade the issue, but you will not say where you think it is coming from, so nuclear it must be. If you think it is impossible that a 40 MW unknown nuclear reaction (or zero point energy, or what-have-you) might be dangerous, or a 10 kW one for that matter, and if you think it is perfectly okay to run such a reaction in a populated area, you are flat out crazy. I don't think you actually believe that. If Rossi were to install one of these things near your house, and you thought it was actually producing heat out of nowhere, I suppose you would object.


    You have said that a 40 MW reactor is "not dangerous" but you also claim to have extensive experience with industrial scale equipment, so you cannot meant that. You would be like a Air Force pilot saying any amateur can fly an F15 figher jet: there's nothing to it; just hop aboard and start pushing buttons. The notion that a 40 MW heater of any type does not need inspections, certificates, or testing is utter lunacy. Especially coming from someone who claims to know about such large, inherently dangerous machines. Even if the thing were a new type of combustion reactor, it would lunacy to run it without tests.

  • Of course it will have been tested and the client may even want to view a test. They will certainly assure themselves it is safe. As Rossi has stated, they plan to start slowly, probably with a MW or two.

    Corporations are not keen to ever get the government involved, I doubt they would inform the government of early trials.

    You think you know how corporations work, but you don't.

    Amazing that you know what "they" will certainly do when you don't even know who the client is.

  • So, you think they would knowingly violate dozens of state and Federal laws?

    Just what law wold they b breaking? There is no law preventing a company from running a trial. There are no regu;ations on LENR yet.

    I think you are the one who does not know how corporations work.


    I have been in the upperdchelon of several major coeporations for many years. Have you? You sound like you are making things up.

    This not up to me. It is not up to Rossi, or the customer. This is how our laws work.

    Laws are made retroactivelt ro solve a problem. The basic desgn and safety is developed by the manufacturer, not the government, with something new.

    Do you seriously think the client would defy the laws? The client would face instant ruin from lawsuits, if not a prison sentence.

    Repeated question. See my previous reply

    Do you have any notion of what would happen when the police, the people living nearby, and the mass media found out???

    Yiu assume the public would care? If it is safe and does not producing radiation why would they care? It is not nezar a home. Ah it's Nuclear -Gasp. Apparently come bacteria and even chickens can transmute elements. zDo you suppose they follow regulaions?

    Do you think Boeing would fly ordinary members of the public in untested prototype airplanes?

    Of course not. TJEY test them, not the government. They knpw far more about it than he government does. They send them a report of their tests. But you thinl pnly the governmentcan be trusted!

    1. You are talking about 40 MW, not 10 kW. That's 4,000 times bigger.

    I knew youcouldn't find an example of potential danger. What difference does it make if one is safe. I have a;ready expained why I think it is. I wouls add each SK is surrounded by a heat exchanger too.

    Don't know what happened to the quote


    Assuming the energy is real -- which I do not believe for one second -- you and Rossi have no idea where it is coming from. The most likely source is a nuclear reaction


    Rossi says he has anidea how it works, why say he hasn't. So you thinkit is nuclear? Do you really think it is the same as fission and fudion? As I said earlier, there is nopoint in debating this with you if you can't see the difference between LENR and regular fission and fusion.


    Your sooooooooap box rants go on forfor too long. let's

    s wait and see whar happens.

  • Adrian,


    Nothing will come from your battles with the individuals who think Rossi never produced anything that works, every version of the E-Cat was a fraud, and in some cases are pushing agendas to support their alliances with various other parties.


    What I'd suggest is potentially more helpful is to try and assist, in whatever way you can, individuals who are performing Rossi-like replications.

  • Adrian,

    Of course not. TJEY test them, not the government. They knpw far more about it than he government does. They send them a report of their tests. But you thinl pnly the governmentcan be trusted!


    Adrian,


    I do know about this, and can say you are wrong. Maybe right in a small way. The FAA is heavily involved in the testing phases of all new aircraft. They actually have field offices at the maintenance hangars of all the major airlines, and assembly buildings of Boeing/Airbus. They oversee everything, and I mean everything.


    To be honest, the FAA personnel are not as experienced as those they oversee, and many could not make it in the "big leagues". The real expertise then, is with the manufacturers, and each airlines piloting, engineering and AP/AE staff. So they do rely heavily on them. Nonetheless, they are there on many of the check flights, every final check, and on the ground looking over the shoulders of the engineers.

  • do know about this, and can say you are wrong. Maybe right in a small way. The FAA is heavily involved in the testing phases of all new aircraft.

    Shane, my knowledge of the aircraft industry is now dated. The FAA never used to have the facilities for major tests like loading a new wing to breaking point. Are you saying that has now changed? A yes or no would be good to keep this off topic short.


    Wiki says "the FAA approves, technical data produced by this company." It doesn't say they do the tests themselves. I know they FAA has to approve the design but what I said was that they didn't do the testing, the manufacturer did.


    Boeing is turning into an assembly plant with many large parts of the aircraft made overseas. I wonder if the FAA has inspectors in China overseeing construction.


    Reading that the FAA is hiring new air traffic controllers based on their address rather then qualifications, in order to get diversity,does not not inspire much confidence.


  • Adrian,


    You are right. I mean't the FAA oversees every aspect of the aviation industry. Here and there, they do a little testing/study of their own, on things like crash dynamics, or bomb blast effects on airplane structures. Basically, they look over everyone's shoulders. For instance, pilots at any time can have an FAA check airman come aboard at the last second, and go along on the ride. They sit in the jumpseat, and literally look over your shoulder the whole flight. I have had as many as 12 of those "check flights" in a year. If you screw up, you can lose your license and forced to go back through training. Same goes for the maintenance crews. FAA can appear at a moments notice, and follow them around checking everything they do. At the main hangars they have field offices, and literally walk out their door and start inspecting.


    Very astute of you to mention the oversees "outsourced" maintenance, as it is a source of friction few know about. I won't talk about Boeing/Airbus, and the manufacturing, but the major airlines -due their stronger unions, did much, or most maintenance heavy checks (Check C/D) in house. These are basically tear downs of the whole frame. Very expensive, but much less so overseas. When I was flying, Central America was where most of those facilities were located. The smaller carriers, or non-union outsourced most, or all of their C/Ds there.


    One of the reasons outsourced maintenance is cheaper, is because of less oversight. Yes, the FAA is authorized to fly down there anytime they want and pester them, but they seldom do. It's a lot easier sitting in an air conditioned office in the AA Tulsa super maintenance hangar, being a PITA to the AA staff, than flying down there, staying in a crappy hotel, and trying to understand non-English speaking A&P's. In addition, many of the inspectors will tell you privately, they are not very welcome down there at times. So they take the path of least resistance.


    Airlines, and their unions, are always actively encouraging the FAA to be as aggressive with the overseas facilities, as they are with them. Doing so they felt, would help level the playing field, and bring more jobs back home.

  • Apparently when you wield the hammer of cold fusion, all of the world's problems are nothing but a series of nails.

    Yup. That's technology for you. It causes many of humanity's worst problems such as pollution, global warming and overpopulation, but is is also the only way to fix those problems. Medical technology caused overpopulation, but now it has given us effective contraceptives and 100% certain means of identifying the father. Those two together can end population growth, if we have the will to use them.


    Cold fusion can solve a broad range of problems, as I described in my book:


    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf


    Not all problems, of course. It won't cure cancer, * illiteracy or income disparities. It might make the latter even worse. But energy is the most essential part of any technology. All machines use energy, by definition. So a better source of energy can have a bigger impact than any other breakthrough, and cold fusion will be by far the best source of energy (assuming it can be made practical). That is why experts said it will be the most important discovery since fire if it works. They were right.



    * On the other hand, it will reduce some forms of cancer caused by air pollution.

  • Well, I am not at all convinced by some of the specific realizations of CF technology in your book (such as steam-powered cars), but there is no doubt that any virtually unlimited and highly efficient new energy source would turn the world on its end (no allusions to a flat earth intended.) Whether cold fusion is that world-changing technology is the 64 tera-dollar question. I realize the answer is clear in your mind and in those of many others that you are chomping at the bit to enumerate but that does not mean that the answer is clear. And whatever I have to say about it - and, for that matter, what most people here have to say about it - has no consequence whatsoever.

  • You are right.

    Thanks Shane. Sounds about as I expected.


    But my main point was s nothing to do with aircraft. It was Jed insisting that the government had to do the tests and that is not true.


    Today Rossi reports that his partner, who is mainly industrial. witnessed the test of the SK and was pleased with the results.

    He says they have manufacturing expertise and will help install the manufacturing equipment as well as finance it.


    I wonder if the babblers felt the walls close in at all.

  • Adrian,


    YW. Still though, the main point Jed, and most others are making, is that the government is heavily involved. Even if they do not do the testing, they, or their designee, have to sign off on it. That would apply to what Rossi plans to put on the market. So I have to agree with the consensus here that a legitimate customer, and real product are not in the cards.


    That said, I have little doubt Rossi is prepping for something. Not sure what it is, or how it will turn out. Whether it will end the speculation, or be another big disappointment, but looking forward to when the show begins.

  • And whatever I have to say about it - and, for that matter, what most people here have to say about it - has no consequence whatsoever.

    That is incorrect. As you see in the book, I talked to many experts such as Adm. Griffin, Fleischmann, and many distinguished non-experts such as Clarke. I listened carefully and I ran the manuscript past them to be sure I described their points of view correctly. I consulted with most of the people who knew about cold fusion at that time.


    Here are some of the people I am less inclined to listen to, or not inclined to listen to at all:


    People who have not thought about this.


    People who have read nothing about cold fusion, or for that matter, conventional energy.


    People who have no idea what power density and temperature means, or when these things were understood in the 19th century.


    People who cannot understand some basic facts about technology and economics, such as the fact that automobiles, refrigerators and even house wiring must be gradually replaced over time. Or the fact that automobile engines are 130 times cheaper than large electric power generators per kilowatt of capacity. * Or the reasons why electric power companies in Hawaii are in dire shape. These have a direct bearing on the likely situation that will occur with cold fusion, as I show in various papers and books. Perhaps those experts I consulted with are wrong, and I am wrong, but if you have not even read these arguments, or considered them carefully, you are not in a position to dismiss them.




    * See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusionb.pdf


  • What is important to me is that a potential partner performs a test themselves on a unit built themselves from scratch and openly shares the results. Until that happens, even if Rossi did manage to sell heat to a customer and generate income, there will still be massive debate as to what it represents. Just because he may begin selling heat to a customer won't provide proof it is of nuclear origin. There will be people that say he is generating the heat by some other means other than LENR to promote his technology. Even if the customer came forward and claimed that they observed the unit and it seemed like there was only limited input and a huge amount of anomalous output, I tremendously doubt there will be the transparency required to PROVE the plant operates as claimed. Now, after a period of time, if the customer (hopefully a full scale industrial customer and not a JM Products clone) seems extremely happy, is continually paying Rossi's invoices, and everything looks plausible, some of us who think the technology is real may accept that the situation is legitimate. However, there is virtually no chance Rossi will provide detailed measurements of the input and output -- taking no shortcuts -- and allow a third party (who is not a close associate of his that would appear suspicious even if there is zero wrong doing) to read the gauges and meters themselves.


    Simply put, even if such a plant is built, setup, and produces power for a customer for an extended period of time, it may not do much to prove to the world that LENR is a reality. Obviously, it would stir up more interest in LENR. But, again, without hard data collected by properly calibrated and property utilized instruments and checked by a very qualified third party, it means very little to most people.


    What we need is for a team of truly "open source" replicators to try and build a quark like device themselves. I don't think it should be too awfully difficult.