Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

Not using radioactive materials and not making dangerous radiation wold be enough to stop inspectors from interfering.

Sure, it would.

But... If Rossi actually developed nuclear reactors - that is - something generating energy from nuclear reactions - this would be subject to stringent checking and testing from every possible angle. Rossi CLAIMING there was no radiation, there were no radioactive materials would not cut it.

So the question is whether when Rossi sells this new heat source everyone believes its power comes from nuclear reactions. Difficult to see how that could be avoided?

THH

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

The government wouldn't even know that Rossi had installed a p;ant to supply heat for months afterit started.

Only a large factory run by a major corporation would need 40 MW of heat. Are you seriously suggesting that a major corporation would install and operate a thing like this without informing state and local officials? Without getting a certificate? On what planet would that happen? As soon as the public found out, everyone responsible would be arrested, and the entire top management would be forced out. It would be one of the biggest scandals in corporate history.

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

If it was working successfully do you really think they would shut it down?

Yes. Emphatically. A 40 MW reactor that operates by unknown principles, that has never been safety tested, and has no regulations or license would definitely be shut down. Not only that, but the entire area would be evacuated, with hundreds of police cars and fire trucks, as a precaution.

Also, as I said, the NRC would definitely want a say in the matter. You seem to deny this is a nuclear reactor, although you have not said where the energy might be coming from. Any technically knowledgeable person would assume it must be nuclear, since there is no chemical fuel and no chemical reactions. You apparently think the NRC would roll over and play dead, but is not how Federal agencies usually act. See what I wrote previously:

Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

Obviously they would measure the radiation level and not rely on Rossi's word. Insane to think otherwise.

That's the least they would do! You cannot operate equipment without a certificate in any state, and there are no procedures in place to issue a certificate for this machine. You can't even operate an elevator without inspections and a safety certificate.

This is the 21st century, not 1600. The public will not allow the reckless operation of large-scale unknown technology in a populated area. For that matter, after one unexplained explosion, Hokkaido University banned all cold fusion research, on any scale.

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

You are not looking at the big picture.

The government wouldn't even know that Rossi had installed a p;ant to supply heat for months afterit started. If it was working successfully do you really think they would shut it down? Obviously they would measure the radiation level and not rely on Rossi's word. Insane to think otherwise.

Imagine their embarrassment that DOE had actively tried to shut down research in the area and were convinced that it was bogus science.. That hey had wasted so much money on hot fusion, solar and wind power. That the noisy AGW crowd would think that it would save the world. Etc.

Adrian, taking you at your word that you were an engineer with experience in these areas, I know that even you realize your statements above are ridiculous.

I think the key point of this whole discussion is that releasing a commercial product would require an extensive testing period using a working prototype by federal government approved agencies. We know this testing is not being done because Rossi just decided a few days ago that the SK was working, so it could not have been under extensive testing by the authorities. Rossi's supposed strategy of just releasing it to commercial customers is an absolutely absurd proposition, which can only be believed by a completely delusional or technically ignorant person. Since this strategy is obviously not really happening, nothing else can be believed that is coming from Rossi's blog and sock puppets.

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

Of course it will have been tested and the client may even want to view a test.

Gee, do you you think they may even want to view a test? May even??? Again, what planet do you come from? Here is a partial list of others who may even want to view a test. No, actually "may want" is the wrong word. They will demand to see thousand hours of tests conducted by independent agencies, and hundreds of thousands of pages of documentation. That is their job. Anyone who installs equipment that has not gone through these steps will end up in prison.

Every Federal and State safety and regulation agency in the U.S., starting with the NRC.

The ASME, which writes all of the Federal and state regulations.

Every national laboratory and military laboratory on earth.

Every major university laboratory. No one will allow the use of this device until mainstream academic scientists are sure they understand how it works, and what the theory is.

Every insurance company, presumably through U.L. No one will be able to insure one of these things until the insurance companies give them a green light. That will not happen until the academic scientists, the NRC, the ASME and the others do their jobs. These jobs are not optional. They are mandated by laws.

Every potential customer. A customer who does not do this, and which does not wait for all of the above agencies and institutions to do their jobs, would risk catastrophic lawsuits and expenses high enough to bankrupt any company, the way the Fukushima disaster bankrupted Tokyo Electric Power Company. That was the largest and was the most wealthy power company on earth. A company is not going to risk bankruptcy and to save 20% on the cost of heat. Individual employees and corporate managers are not going to destroy their careers and run the risk of prison sentences to save 20% on the cost of heat. And why should they? There is no point to it. Installing and operating one of these machines would prove nothing and accomplish nothing that you cannot do better with a 100 W laboratory device.

In any case, I am sure the 40 MW machines do not exist. I am sure the 1 MW machine did not exist. It was fake. You would see that if you read Rossi's own report, but you will not read it, so you will go on with your delusions.

Quote from PhysicsForDummies

Rossi's supposed strategy of just releasing it to commercial customers is an absolutely absurd proposition, which can only be believed by a completely delusional or technically ignorant person.

Yes. If the SK were a laboratory bench experimental device that produces a few watts, it would make sense to release it to commercial customers. They would evaluate it, and begin planning ways to commercialize it. They would begin negotiating with Rossi for commercial deals. This is similar to the way AT&T sold the first transistors to big companies, and sent samples to Los Alamos and other leading labs.

That would be a conventional approach with a newly discovered, patented device.

Building and installing kilowatt and megawatt scale devices would be a crazy strategy, violating common sense, countless regulations, and running tremendous risks with no benefit. No sane company managers would do it. Perhaps you could find some kooky person with a private company who would do this, but as soon as the authorities found out, all hell would break loose.

You guys are forgetting that Adrian knows more about everything than anyone else.

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

Corporations are not keen to ever get the government involved, I doubt they would inform the government of early trials.

So, you think they would knowingly violate dozens of state and Federal laws? And risk a catastrophic accident? They would surely be sued by people in the surrounding area once it became known they were doing this, probably for ruinous sums of money. Even if years later the machine was shown to be safe, they would face lawsuits now.

Why do you think the individual managers would be willing to take enormous personal risks, just to save the company 20% on the cost of heat? Would you do that?

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

You think you know how corporations work, but you don't.

I think you are the one who does not know how corporations work. Or how ordinary people work. No one risks personal ruin and prison sentence to save his company 20% on heat.

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

Sure, if you wanted to delay the installation by a decade.

This not up to me. It is not up to Rossi, or the customer. This is how our laws work. This is how society is run in the 21st century. The public demands a high level of assurance that new technology will be safe.

You cannot simply ignore laws and regulations. You will get into deep trouble, with the police, with regulators, and with lawsuits from the people living nearby.

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

All the client has to do is assure himself that it is reasonably safe. You think you are the only one capable of doing that? He can't lose much money as he is only paying for delivered heat.

Do you seriously think the client would defy the laws? The client would face instant ruin from lawsuits, if not a prison sentence. Do you know any licensed engineer who would casually break the law, with the certain knowledge that he will lose his license at least, and end up in prison at worst? No executive or president would casually okay a measure save 20% on heat, knowing that the company will certainly face billions of dollars in lawsuits as a result.

Do you have any notion of what would happen when the police, the people living nearby, and the mass media found out???

Do you think Boeing would fly ordinary members of the public in untested prototype airplanes? Or that Toyota, Google or Uber would start selling self-driving cars to anyone who wants to try one? Do you think the government would let them do that, or it wouldn't notice? The newspapers wouldn't hear about it?

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

You still not come up with a plausible example of how the 10 kW SK might be dangerous.

1. You are talking about 40 MW, not 10 kW. That's 4,000 times bigger.

2. You -- and Rossi -- have no idea whether a 100 W SK might be dangerous. Rossi has not exposed rats and other test species to long exposures to the thing. He couldn't have; he just finished invented it! According to him, and you.

Rossi claimed that his previous reactors often went out of control. He just finished this one, so how does he know it will not also go out of control? How many hours of testing did he do with previous devices before they went out of control? (Actually, nothing went out of control. He was lying, to bring fake demonstrations to an abrupt end, but let's pretend he was telling the truth.)

Assuming the energy is real -- which I do not believe for one second -- you and Rossi have no idea where it is coming from. The most likely source is a nuclear reaction. You deny that, and evade the issue, but you will not say where you think it is coming from, so nuclear it must be. If you think it is impossible that a 40 MW unknown nuclear reaction (or zero point energy, or what-have-you) might be dangerous, or a 10 kW one for that matter, and if you think it is perfectly okay to run such a reaction in a populated area, you are flat out crazy. I don't think you actually believe that. If Rossi were to install one of these things near your house, and you thought it was actually producing heat out of nowhere, I suppose you would object.

You have said that a 40 MW reactor is "not dangerous" but you also claim to have extensive experience with industrial scale equipment, so you cannot meant that. You would be like a Air Force pilot saying any amateur can fly an F15 figher jet: there's nothing to it; just hop aboard and start pushing buttons. The notion that a 40 MW heater of any type does not need inspections, certificates, or testing is utter lunacy. Especially coming from someone who claims to know about such large, inherently dangerous machines. Even if the thing were a new type of combustion reactor, it would lunacy to run it without tests.

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

Of course it will have been tested and the client may even want to view a test. They will certainly assure themselves it is safe. As Rossi has stated, they plan to start slowly, probably with a MW or two.

Corporations are not keen to ever get the government involved, I doubt they would inform the government of early trials.

You think you know how corporations work, but you don't.

Amazing that you know what "they" will certainly do when you don't even know who the client is.

Quote from interested observer

You guys are forgetting that Adrian knows more about everything than anyone else.

I think Adrian battles a lot of Rossi Skeptics

that think they know everything.