I have no reason, given the weight of evidence from Alan and others, that Rossi has a real product to doubt.
My only resignation on the issue of Rossi, is that he decided to side with the conglomerates, and not compete with them. Theres more than one way to skin a cat.
Simply put, unless someone has direct knowledge of eCats that has not been publicly revealed, it is clear that they do not work and Rossi is and out and out fraud.
If people have direct knowledge / data that the eCats work (not Rossi says and the hyperbole we here from AA) then why do they not discuss it? Giving Rossi the occasional "thumbs up" but refusing to discuss why, does nothing but tarnish their own reputation.
Bob,
Just playing devils advocate here, but if we were looking through the prism they are, we might see things differently. And what they are seeing is looking like an LENR breakthrough. After they get the heavy equipment, and specialists in there next month, we should know more. In the meantime they are fairly certain this is something unique, so it is understandable he may think it a good time to brave the backlash, and give Rossi a thumbs up. They feel Russ's fuel blend, and no doubt Alan's dogbone style furnace tube set-up, were inspired by him, so why not? Again, just playing the advocate here.
You are right, in that this mouse thing has never been explained. It has not even been mentioned since before Doral, so I do not understand why Russ decided to rekindle that mystery now.
Read all of the ‘mouse’ comments on JoNP in one sitting.
I triple dog dare you.
Just playing devils advocate here, but if we were looking through the prism they are, we might see things differently.
This is a bit what I am talking about. Even if the Androcles does turn out to be replicable, it really does not shine any positive light on Rossi!
Other than perhaps Rossi's lies about factories, high COP, direct thrust, direct light, etc. etc. etc. may have intrigued some people to do some exploration of their own, they do not seem to be related in any manner. We really know nothing of the eCat. Mysterious powders, mouses and transmutations (that were later admitted fraudulent) and now plasma's that have not really been seen. What EXACTLY would one replicate here or give credence to one's own work as connected to Rossi? Other than perhaps it spurred interest in the field.
Perhaps giving PIantelli a big thumbs up is warranted, but NOT Rossi. Rossi simply took an idea from a field already ripe with fraudulent claims.... "free energy". He then lied and deceived and took investor's monies. People seem to forget that he took 10 grand apiece from "distributors" years ago as he was "ready for production". It never came about and yes, some will say he gave the money back. Well, not all and it is clear that all lost money considering lost interest, time and possibly other marketing expenses.
And talk about scam...$10 MILLION from Doral fiasco that he then abandoned the "eCat design" a month or two after the lawsuit started! We know of no connection between the QuarkX reactor and the old 1MW plant. It appears they are completely different with the new being a "plasma" based system, whatever that means! Really!
No, in earnest... .what is there that Rossi should be credited with? What real technical device, method or datum should Rossi be credited as being real, proven or even likely? And yet people still want to give him a thumbs up? 
Nickel? This was NOT his idea. Hydrogen? Again not his. Lithium? Been used well before Rossi. What exactly?
Just because someone is "smart" and can do math or conduct well designed experiments, does not mean that they have good judgement in all areas. I once worked with an engineer in R&D. He was quite intelligent and did some excellent work in materials science. Yet he belonged to a religious cult that believed in some of the most outlandish weirdness one can imagine. We are talking completely illogical stuff here. How do you reconcile this?
Just as I call out a scientist that refuses to call a spade a spade, yet still gives the occasional "thumbs up" to Rossi, it really does reflect on their judgement in certain areas. Again, just because one is smart, does not mean they cannot be blinded by wishful thinking. (If not blind, see or attribute results in data that are not really there)
That is why "science should" work in the long run. When actual data is published, it should withstand the critique of the skeptics. Keeping it hidden or releasing poems does nothing. That is why I admire the likes of magicsound. He is releasing data (which does not mean he is releasing IP). He does not seem to tie himself to the success or failure of the test. It is simply science. It works or it does not. Let the data tell. I for one, was never very interested in ballet. 
Bob,
While the jury is still out, I would have to agree that if the verdict comes back next month positive, then Piantelli deserves the credit. That is me and you though, but they are the ones doing the work, so they decide. If Rossi get's their thumbs up, well then, he gets a little redemption. Kind of pisses me off after Doral, and Stockholm, but that is the way it is.
And while it is commendable how Magic is conducting his OS replication project, I can assure you Russ and Alan are reaching out just as vigorously to their university colleagues, LF members, and now an agency joining in with their considerable resources to help figure this out. You just do not see all this going on, so understandable you, and others think they are cloistered in isolation working as a 3 man team.
They are sitting on a mountain of data, which needs a multi discipline approach to analyze, and make sense of. That help is on the way.
. You just do not see all this going on, so understandable you, and others think they are cloistered in isolation working as a 3 man team.
I believe a bit of a misconception is here as well. I really do not know what they are doing, nor do I think that they are necessarily in isolation.
The only "complaint" I have is that we get mixed signals. Posts that the fossil fuel age is over which is somewhat contradicted by 10 years and millions.
One seemingly claims absolute certainty while another is cautious. (Rightly so)
I did not mean to compare magicsound's open science apppoach to the Androcles "private" project method. I have no issues whatso ever with someone keeping private about their own work. What is frustrating, is what is being posted and then the sometimes snide comments when any critique is given to the clouded post!
For example, if someone wants to give Rossi the "thumbs up" on a public forum, with the VAST amounts of damning evidence against Rossi, he SHOULD expect people to question this judgment and ask why in the world he would do such a thing! Then to add a Rossi endorsement to their own work, without ANY supporting evidence IS cause for concern.
I wish the Androcles project the best, I really do. It is just that what is being presented appears to be somewhat disjointed. I guess all the visiting dignitaries are requiring NDA's to "protect" their reputations? It would be nice to receive what their general feedback was. The one visiting prof was reported to state along the lines of "interesting... needs more investigation". I thought that a positive report. Will we hear of any others?
So, not it is not "just a three man team"... it is more like "we do not really know what the 3 man team is saying".
When actual data is published, it should withstand the critique of the skeptics.
I think it has so far, and we have only released a small amount and not the best bits either. I don't regard suggestions that we know nothing about control experiments or radiation measurement as a critique, btw, it's just throwing peanuts, which it is noticeable are often thrown by people who know zilch about experimental science or condensed matter physics.
Maybe I am wrong but I worry that when someone gives Rossi any credit it may cause him to reach for his laywer.
"Mine, my precious."
I don't regard suggestions that we know nothing about control experiments or radiation measurement as a critique, btw
I agree. Sometimes interpretations of statements can be misread, same as posts about data/events can be misread/misunderstood.
For the vast majority, I believe most here hold the view that the Androcles is being subjected to some of the best experimental equipment setup and oversight recently conducted on an "LENR reactor". This is a very, very positive thing.
I think where most of the criticism from the peanut gallery is that, on occasion, a post is made that makes a rather strong assumption. It is an assumption from the peanut gallery's view because the data has not been released to support that assumption. So then, certain people ask detailed questions, which in turn, may be taken incorrectly. This field has had a very long history of bad science. From BOTH the skeptics and some researchers. Some sincere skeptics will ask skeptical questions. Sometimes that may be taken as "you do not know what your doing", but probably is not the real case. It is just a basic questions. The more that is known, the less basic questions will be asked!
Now the matter of giving Rossi credit and how it relates to judgement..... that is another story! 
I would expect a LOT of criticism on that and would support such criticism until substantiated facts are shown. To ask someone to ignore the MOUNTAINS of very damning and documented evidence against the guy is simply illogical. Most will require significant evidence to change their mind. It is like that old saying (in reverse)…. an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence!
Well, for Rossi to be credited as having any truth, real or working devices is very, very, very extraordinary! THAT will require very extraordinary evidence indeed!
So if one has "caught Rossi's mouse", either be ready for some sincere critique or be ready to provide some extraordinary evidence! Otherwise, that mouse may bit the fingers that is holding it. (Hopefully it does not have rabies)
Alan, I hope you are successful and wish you the best of luck. However, I am highly confident that when you are successful, Rossi will promptly sue you for stealing his IP. After all, you attended a demo and obviously the only reason you did was to steal his IP (and we really need a sarcasm emoticon).
Funnily enough the points of contact between what Rossi is doing and what we are doing are minimal. He would be wasting his money, and that (I know) is something he hates to do.
Despite being in general agreement with Jed, above, I am content to wait and see where this goes rather than fuss over the crumbs and blunt objects being tossed at the peanut gallery.
... there has been a professional troll hunt for Russ ever since he threw some dust into the ocean and made the salmon come back.
Not to get too off topic, but for those unfamiliar, George's iron sulfate "dust" and resulting salmon harvest in British Columbia is a fascinating story in and of itself. Definitely worth reading up on if readers have the time. And I would say that story provides context for why Russ might reasonably respond in "crusty" ways to critics at times, and also provides insight into his pursuit and creative application of scientific knowledge.
I'm glad you two have teamed up, wish you both the best, and look forward to your reports on what you've learned.
Pretty much all I was saying here, but since I am branded an “anti-LENR guy”, everyone got their panties in a bunch. Pretty typical.
IO,
You said later you were not anti-LENR, so I am am fine by that. These things do flare up on occasion, then the next day calm down. Unavoidable really, what with so many egos, and opinions on one forum. Throw in happy hour, bad hair days, and it is amazing we all get along as well as we do.
This is not a very healthy conversation, within the Rossi conversation, and gets us nowhere IMO. Best we shift all to Clearance. Hopefully there it fades away. Any objections?
Edit: No objections within the allotted 3 minutes 
so all the related posts are now in the Playground. Hopefully there, they fade away from memory.
QuoteWhile the jury is still out
ROTFWL!
If this were the case of IH vs Rossi and the jury had a collective average IQ in the double digits, they wouldn't be "out" very long. I suspect that IH, fearing some truly stupid or uneducated jurors who could not understand anything about science, opted to settle rather than risk a huge punitive damage award and then endless and costly appeals.
But all is not over legally for Mr. Rossi and his crooked buddies and silly admirers. I have it on good authority that complaints have been filed with the Provost of the University of Illinois regarding a class taught there which incorporates mention of Rossi as if he really had something. The professor has been warned and advised many times on the issue and while he edited the course description, it is still wildly incorrect as to facts about Rossi and his various claims.
Complaints have also been filed against Mr. Bass with myfloridalicense.com and myfloridalegal.com and others for " Unlicensed engineering activities, Unlicensed contractor activities, Misrepresentation and fraud, Accessory to Andrea Rossi's "E-Cat" fraud scheme, Failure to report unlicensed engineering activities and unlicensed contractor activities, etc.". Also with Florida Board of Professional Engineers (FBPE). From the complaint:
"Mr. Bass is an unlicensed electrical engineer. He accepted a position as the "Director of Engineering" for JM Products, a company that had no Certificate of Authorization from the FBPE/FEMC to practice engineering in the State of Florida and no Florida-licensed professional engineer on staff. The JM Products CEO, Mr. Henry Johnson, was a real estate attorney who knew nothing about engineering. Mr. Johnson claimed that JM Products made "Advanced Derivatives of Johnson-Matthe[y] Platinum Sponges." JM Products operated in a 6000-sq.ft. warehouse in Doral, with no licensed professional engineers, no Engineer of Record, no licensed craft personnel, no industrial hygiene or industrial safety programs, no business license from the City of Doral, no building permits for modifications made to the warehouse, no hazardous chemicals permit (IW-O) from Miami-Dade County, etc. The phony "Doctor" Rossi also claimed that JM Products was utilizing 1-MW of thermal power from a "nuclear reactor" despite the fact that this purported "reactor" had no approved engineering drawings, no approved specifications, no boiler safety inspection from the Florida Boiler Safety Section, no environmental impact statement, no discharge permits, etc. As the JM Products "Director of Engineering" and as an experienced engineer, Mr. Bass should have known that essentially all the activities in the Doral warehouse were in flagrant violation of local/city/county/state regulations. Mr. Bass took no action to report any of these violations to the appropriate authorities."
A complaint has also been sent to the trial judges from Rossi vs IH, against the attorneys for knowingly presenting evidence and claims they knew to be fraudulent on their face.
"Next up: Mr. Henry "Hank" Johnson, famous real estate attorney and engineering company owner/CEO (both JMP and Leonardo)." just so he shouldn't feel left out.
I have nothing to do with these. The folks filing them are much more talented at it than I would be and way more annoyed. They are apparently also less amused by Rossi! If nothing else, Rossi and his buddies will be very busy answering complaints and actions against their licenses if they have any.
QuoteWhen actual data is published, it should withstand the critique of the skeptics.
Depends what you mean by "skeptics." The data should be defensible against legitimate concerns and or potential errors. Casual internet critics don't matter much. It's the peers, the press and yes, mainline scientists, professors, investors and large organizations that do matter.
SOT,
If the Univ of Illinois prof is representing Lugano/Doral/Stockholm as scientifically valid, then I can understand them asking him to stop. UI has been one of LENR's best kept secrets since Miley started in LENR. They have achievement awards for LENR students, and the are free to study the science without fear of career suicide. With all their contributions to the field, and affiliation with IH, I can see why they might take exception to anything having to do with Rossi.
As to Bass (JMP's Engineer), and Johnson (JMP's President), I wish whoever is behind this the best of luck in going after them. If left unpunished for their role in the scam, others may be tempted to try. The case was settled out of court, so I do not see how Rossi's lawyers could get in trouble.
The case was settled out of court, so I do not see how Rossi's lawyers could get in trouble.
The earlier Complaint (pages 60-62) made it clear that Rossi's lawyers were referring to Rossi and Penon as a Doctor. This could be viewed as endorsing a false qualification of a PhD.
Johnson is of course in part responsible for the Doral fiasco, being President of JMP and Leonardo, and therefore ultimately responsible for making sure everything was compliant and legal.
I'm sure Woodworker could help with this but I believe it is unethical for lawyers to argue cases with information they know is blatant lies. It may be more than just unethical. I have no time to search it out. Knowingly lying to the court can't be a reason for applauds. There was no trial but there were all sorts of pretrial depositions and motions, many being sworn testimony. In order to miss all the red flags which indicated that Rossi was lying through his teeth, the lawyers would have had to be dumber than a door knob.
an Associate Professor in UIUC's Department of Nuclear, Plasma and Radiological Engineering (NPRE), is the subject of the complaints. From the complaint:
For at least the last year, Prof. Ragheb has been teaching his NPRE 402 ("Nuclear Power Engineering") students that "cold fusion" (aka "low energy nuclear reactions" or "LENR") is a real phenomenon, and that numerous "cold fusion" based power producing devices are commercially available. Perhaps the most egregious example is that Prof. Ragheb's course notes stated that a pathetic fraudster named Andrea Rossi actually built and operated a 1-Megawatt "cold fusion" reactor in Florida for a year. Clearly, this is nothing but fraud and a delusional fantasy.
That and much more was submitted to various department heads and administrative staff of UIUC and the complainants included an alumnus of that NPRE department. According to my source, the university replied it is "being looked into."
SOT,
I edited out the profs name. We know who he is, and no reason to publicly shame him. What he did is not a federal offense.
