Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

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He would not work long hours if he were only a scam artist. There would be no need to work at all. He has done original and creative work developing things like engines that run on organic oil. He made a great deal of money doing that. Also, as I pointed out several times, some of his experiments seemed to work, including this one which we know for a fact he did not touch (there was continuous video coverage ensuring that)

You'd be surprised at how many things you have to understand and control to succeed at a complex technology scam. And that's before you even get to the part where you get the stuff needed to throw it together. Then, you have to test to make sure the sleight of hand or "mismeasurement" tricks you use will work "correctly" and won't be discovered. It's a serious business.

Where did you get the part where Rossi made money on engines that ran on organic oil? I bet this story originated from Rossi. And how do you know how much money he made at it? And that it was original and creative? And not another scam like Petroldragon?

As for ecat experiments which seemed to work, that most likely means that Rossi occasionally succeeded in his tricks and managed to fool scientists who, after all, are usually unsuspecting of technical demos and do not expect or know how to detect deception.

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There has always been the alternative theory to explain Rossi's actions, and that is "he has something, but not what he claims". 20-30% overunity, and fairly reliable maybe, which is about what many others replicating him, and those he replicated, report. That would account for many of his actions from the beginning to now.

No it wouldn't. Any overunity involving 20% of kilowatts of power out compared to power in and using the methods claimed by Rossi, would be a world-shaking discovery and would be treated that way by investors. Look how little IH had to go on when they simply gave Rossi more than ten f'n million dollars! The same reasoning applies also to Rossi's alleged replicators.

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

You can't give even on full quotation I have made that states it was proven.. You just babble in order to post another insult to Rossi

Indeed, you don't explicitly state that Rossi's nonsense is proven. You simply speak as though it was demonstrated to be factual. Here are direct quotes from your recent comments about Rossi:

-He is selling heat to reduce the risk to customers, get clients, make some money and keep the process secret until he has a large manufacturing facility up and running.

-He has a client already who wants 40 MW,

-The SK is what is being developed and produced.

-It is the SK production line that is being built.

-The QX has an output of 1 kW that would be suitable for home heating.

-Also that his large client is in a position to continue the work should he become ill.

-Several key problems have been solved with QX.

You don't seem capable of realizing that there is absolutely no corroboration for any of these statements. You just accept them as truth because your hero said them on his imbecilic blog.

But then, your thought process is clearly the absolute inverse of that of a critical thinker, as witnessed by this gem of yours:

-You have NO hint, let alone proof that a factory is not being built.

I also don’t have a hint, let alone proof that you aren’t Rossi’s secret love child. But I can make a pretty good guess.

Quote from seven_of_twenty

You'd be surprised at how many things you have to understand and control to succeed at a complex technology scam.

The Doral scam was not complex.

Quote from seven_of_twenty

Then, you have to test to make sure the sleight of hand or "mismeasurement" tricks you use will work "correctly" and won't be discovered.

Anyone would see through the Doral scam in a few minutes, just by walking into the room. It wasn't hot. Or by looking at the data or the Penon report.

Quote from seven_of_twenty

Where did you get the part where Rossi made money on engines that ran on organic oil?

Various reliable sources, but I cannot be sure. I have not looked into it.

Quote from seven_of_twenty

And how do you know how much money he made at it?

That's what I have heard but I cannot vouch for it.

Quote from seven_of_twenty

As for ecat experiments which seemed to work, that most likely means that Rossi occasionally succeeded in his tricks and managed to fool scientists who, after all, are usually unsuspecting of technical demos and do not expect or know how to detect deception.

Many of the tests were under Rossi's control, and he may well have done something to give the wrong answer. But some tests were not under his control. The test in the U.S. was conducted entirely with standard HVAC instruments owned by the researchers here, using standard methods. Rossi was in Europe the whole time. He had nothing to do with it. As far as I can tell, it worked.

In the first Levi test, I believe Levi brought all of the instruments. Rossi did not touch them, as shown on the continuous video. Even if he had touched them, there is no way to make a modern integrated-electronic instrument show the wrong value. (You could make old fashioned analog instruments with discrete components give the wrong answer.) You can make an electronic instrument give the wrong answer by setting it up wrong. For example, by putting the wrong size flowmeter in a half empty pipe. But, as long as the instruments are installed correctly, used according to the manual, and calibrated, there is no way to make them produce the wrong answer. Levi et al. decided where the instruments would go, and they picked all of the methods. The instruments and methods are described in detail in the report. I do not see any errors in it large enough to explain the excess heat. Do you? If you do not, you have no basis to say it was wrong. That does not mean it was right. It would have to replicated several times to be sure of that. But there is no reason to think it was wrong.

Saying "Rossi made it go wrong" is no explanation. There are no technical facts we can examine to confirm that. It is tantamount to saying you have no idea what made it wrong but you think Rossi might have done something and you don't know what. That's not falsifiable. It is just a gut feeling.

Perhaps the people in the U.S., and Levi, were in cahoots with Rossi. I wouldn't know about that. Assuming the reports are honest, it seems he may have had real heat. Without replications it is impossible to know.

Quote from JedRothwell

Levi et al. decided where the instruments would go, and they picked all of the methods. The instruments and methods are described in detail in the report. I do not see any errors in it large enough to explain the excess heat. Do you? If you do not, you have no basis to say it was wrong.

Whereas I see LOTS of problems with the follow-up study: the Lugano report.

Many people here have said that the IR camera was used incorrectly at Lugano. Levi et al. computed the wrong temperature from it. That would be an example of using an intergrated-electronic instrument the wrong way, not according to the manual, giving the wrong answer. I do not think that could have been a problem in the first Levi study because they confirmed the IR camera readings with a thermocouple. Why they did not do that Lugano I cannot say. It seems crazy not to have done that!

It was also crazy not to calibrate at the same power levels the cell supposedly produced. There was a lot of crazy stuff at Lugano. Enough to make a person suspect Levi was in cahoots with Rossi.

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Perhaps the people in the U.S., and Levi, were in cahoots with Rossi. I wouldn't know about that. Assuming the reports are honest, it seems he may have had real heat. Without replications it is impossible to know

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The test in the U.S. was conducted entirely with standard HVAC instruments owned by the researchers here, using standard methods. Rossi was in Europe the whole time. He had nothing to do with it. As far as I can tell, it worked.

Which US test are we talking about which was supposedly done with Rossi far away? I mean, is there a link? Who did these tests and how? Is it a test I would be familiar with from just keeping up with forums?

Alan Smith :

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I think the reason a thermocouple was not used in Lugano was that the 3-phase driver circuit for the device used there would have actually induced enough stray voltage into the thermocouple output wires to make it give a ridiculously high reading*. And that would never do.

Why was 3-phase power required or preferred? We're talking a couple of kW and most of the output was supposed to originate with the supposed reaction.

JedRothwell : I have to say it again. In any confidence scheme, it's usually the part you don't get that gets you.

As I said: “Indeed, you don't explicitly state that Rossi's nonsense is proven. You simply speak as though it was demonstrated to be factual“.

However, you as the greatest babbler* of all, are only fixated on all the meanies picking on your poor hero and continue to ignore the fact that you are spouting unsubstantiated and often impossible nonsense as though there was any reason to believe any of it.

Since you are not an LENR skeptic, you are permitted to speculate about my mental health as a form of debate. I am not permitted to reciprocate, so have a nice day.

* babbler - n. An obnoxious and foolish and loquatious talker

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I don't buy that theory. I think Rossi has been able to produce kilowatts of power at enormous COP in the past.

If Rossi could do that and he is not making money from it hand over first, there are only two possibilities:

1) he's completely insane

2) he's from another planet

Your contrived explanation about waiting for total domination of markets is absurd. Radical and highly profitable inventions come along from time to time. Almost all follow the usual patter of patenting, disclosure, seeking investments and putting together the means of production. In eight years, Rossi has done nothing approaching that sequence of events. Not even the first step. The patents he has are meaningless and worthless because they merely describe a heater and they do not reveal how one with the required skills (substitute patent patter here) could build one that worked.

Director - very creative re-write attempt. While there were mitigating factors, self-inflicted wounds and some bad breaks, Patterson failed mainly because he ran out of beads that worked and could never figure out how to make a working replacement batch.

Quote from JedRothwell

This is an oversimplification.

People who have worked with him tell me that he knows a great deal about engineering. He works long hours and he has many ideas. He would not work long hours if he were only a scam artist. There would be no need to work at all. He has done original and creative work developing things like engines that run on organic oil. He made a great deal of money doing that. Also, as I pointed out several times, some of his experiments seemed to work, including this one which we know for a fact he did not touch (there was continuous video coverage ensuring that):

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LeviGindication.pdf

There are other indications he may have had something:

1. Celani's observation of a burst of gamma rays.
2. The heater in the factory described in a patent was seen and tested by many people, who said that it worked.
3. There was an independent test of his device in the U.S. He was not present. They used conventional HVAC tools and techniques and they observed excess heat.

That is not proof by any stretch of the imagination, but it is credible evidence. It deepens the mystery. If he had something years ago, why did he put on a ridiculous, blatantly fraudulent test in Doral? There is no question he was lying in Doral. His own lawsuit testimony, his report, and the photos prove that beyond question. Yet it is possible that some of previous claims were valid. They were similar to Arata's so it would not be astounding if they worked. He would not get that much credit. Several people have replicated Arata.

No, not all of his energy. There is no doubt he worked long hours making dozens of prototypes. Someone who is only a scam artist would make a few dummy machines, claim that he works long hours, and spend all of his time chasing after money.

Also, you can make a dummy machine to scam people far smaller and cheaper than the gigantic machine installed at Doral. Most free-energy scams are the size of Rossi's 2011 table-top machines. Some people say the Doral machine was large because that makes it hard to test and confirm the heat. I disagree. It would be dead simple for any HVAC engineer to test that machine. They test space-heating furnaces and boilers of that size thousands of times a day. The Doral machine was hard to test because there was no valve at the outlet, because the wrong kind of flow meter was installed in a half-empty gravity return pipe, and for many other reasons, but there is no reason why a large system like that should be inherently difficult to test. There is also no question at all that this one was not producing 1 MW, or even 50 kW.

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Jed,

My first boss out of college told me

“Never confuse activity with accomplishment”.

After I thought about it, (at 22 years old),

it made a lot of sense.

Rossi has accomplished nothing yet, maybe that will change, but I don’t think so.

Quote from Alan Smith

I think the reason a thermocouple was not used in Lugano was that the 3-phase driver circuit for the device used there would have actually induced enough stray voltage into the thermocouple output wires to make it give a ridiculously high reading*. And that would never do.

* I have seen that happen in the past.

Alan,

I have never seen that.

Not saying it does t happen tho.

1. What was the medium being heated?

2. Was the heater connected wye or delta?

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Patterson failed mainly because he ran out of beads that worked and could never figure out how to make a working replacement batch.

Patterson probably failed because he never had anything that worked and was deluding himself and others. The Wikipedia entry notes that Patterson's company was formed around 1995 and he died in 2008. That should have left plenty of time to accomplish enough to get prototypes made and properly evaluated. According to that same Wiki, Patterson's company, CETI, provided a complete kit to Earthtech so they could replicate the work and they were unable to do so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterson_power_cell

SoT - I've interviewed 4 researchers who were directly involved. The fuel cell beads that he purchased on surplus from our US Gov't worked.

Quote from seven_of_twenty

JedRothwell: I have to say it again. In any confidence scheme, it's usually the part you don't get that gets you.

You miss the point. If you don't get that part, you cannot say it is scam. I can point to specific technical reasons showing that Doral was a scam. I cannot point to any reasons showing the first Levi report was a scam. Therefore I have no technical or scientific reasons to say it was. Neither do you, as far as I know. You can say that your gut feeling is it must be a scam. You can say that based on Rossi's history and personality it is very likely to be a scam. That's reasonable. I agree with both statements. But they cannot be debated, proved, or falsified. There is no proof. Whereas there is loads of proof that Doral was a scam.