FUD generation

The original thread (FUD on E-catworld) was closed, though there was lively comment on it. My general intention is to write under the most appropriate thread. The theme here is mixed, but my basic theme is how there is FUD -- misinformation -- unaddressed on E-Catworld, when there isn't apparently, a critical mass of users adequately informed -- or following the discussions. The purpose here is not to criticise E-catworld, but rather to look at a class of content.

I was reading back and saw this thread:

https://disqus.com/home/discus…penon/#comment-2969530429

The discussion had turned to visits to the Doral plant.

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Ged LENR G • 22 days ago
And then those Chinese and Hong Kong investors visited a number of times.

Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax Ged • 20 days ago
It is apparently being assumed that because some visitors had Asian names, that they were from China or Hong Kong, but there were only two such visits, and none of these individuals visited more than once. The only visitors with an identified country of origin, of these, were the Hartanos from Hong Kong. Whether they were investors or not is also not evident in what we have, beyond Rossi having claimed that there were Chinese investors who visited. The first such visit was March 27 and the second July 7, shortly before Rossi restricted visitors, with his July 13 email. None of the Asian vistors was accompanied by Darden or Vaughn.

Ged Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax • 19 days ago
Woodford investors visited for a second time on August 21st, so visitors and Darden/Vaughn were not restricted; looks like if it applied to anyone and isn't a red herring from IH, it only applied to the Chinese visitors (their addresses are of course "unknown"). Also seems it is unknown all the times when Joe Pike was around; wonder if he is related to Daniel and Mia Pike, who, by the way, live in China https://www.weddingwire.com/we... . Also, Joe Pike lives with a Chan Poyner (Pike) http://www.naplesarea.com/5993... , who is with ARCS https://www.intelius.com/peopl... https://www.arcsfoundation.org... . By their age, could be the parents for Daniel and Mia.

The "information" about the Pikes and assumed relatives is unestablished research of a kind that is easily incorrect. Might be true, might not be true, but this was basically irrelevant. I was only saying that we don't know they were from China. Not the biggest axe being ground here. But Ged is setting up a denial of the visitor restriction, which is counterfactual. I addressed it:

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Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax Ged • 19 days ago
An exception does not disallow that something else is being practiced routinely. The visits almost entirely stopped with the Rossi declaration July 13, but Darden and Vaughn were still "welcome" to visit. So, once, in August, they both came with the two Woodford reps who had visited before (or one of them had). Maybe Rossi allowed them all in, maybe not. I suspect things had gotten tense by August, after the Murray exclusion in July. From numerous visits, down to one, until the end of the test, that's a big difference, for more than half the year.

The crucial exclusion was of Murray, the IH engineer. This was a clear violation of the Terms Sheet, and would be guaranteed to offend IH. It was their plant! So far, we do not know how IH responded to this. Rossi was still pretending, at the beginning of March, only a few weeks away from filing the lawsuit, that everything was fine with IH. Don't listen to those rumors from snakes!

"Rumors from snakes" was a reference to Rossi's public dismissal, in early March, of the Krivit story about there being a problem between Rossi and IH. Ged replied, and I either didn't see it or decided it was too much freakin' trouble. So, here, I will examine in detail.

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Ged Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax • 18 days agoI
It takes just one exception to falsify a hypothesis, or break down an absolute argument. Visitors came after, so that is that. Darden/Vaughn could have brought Murray along, or could have gotten the information and details Murray was looking for.

That is only true if a hypothesis is absolute, with no room for exceptions, and I had just pointed out that Rossi had explicitly excluded all visitors. Here it is, from document 29.19

Da: [email protected]
Data: 13/07/2015
Thanks, Andrea. ... I would like to introduce you to one of our new team members, Joe Murray. He and I have booked a flight down on Tuesday afternoon and will depart Wednesday afternoon.

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From: [email protected]
Date: Mon, Jul 13, 2015
Hi, JT! OK for the address to send from now on the patent papers. About the meeting of Tuesday, you obviously can come when you want, while Joe Murray cannot enter in the factory of JM because, as I have explained to Tom during the visit with Brian Mc Laughlin, I do not allow anybody, except for the personnel already reciprocally authorized, to approach the plant before the tests on course will have been completed.

So the context , the "rule" is actually no visitors other than "personnel reciprocally authorized," as if this was some independent determination Rossi could make. If an agreement exists, sure, but this was contradictory to the Terms Sheet Rossi and Johnson had signed. There is then an exception in the visitor list, and only one, the visit of the Woodford investors in August. This, however, was not their first visit. It was also the only visit where both Darden and Vaughn showed up. We don't know what happened there, other than that there was "a visit." And Ged is very confused about the timing of the Woodford investment.

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Instead, they bring Woodford investors and then Woodford announces they invested in IH by that subsequent October, for no small sum of money.

The Woodford investment took place the prior May. There may have been some publicity about it in October. Rossi's written exclusion did not occur until July, but it appears there was a prior exclusion, that of McLaughlin, who was accompanied by Darden and apparently not admitted, because that visit does not show up in the list.

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Which, by the way, disproved the arguments you used to make about Woodford's involvement, as now we see they did see the plant, twice, and then decided to invest--there was direct interaction. If there were tensions and troubles, why did Darden bring them by in August?

They saw the plant once, in February, and I have, to my recollection, never denied that first visit. I have, instead, explained what likely happened. They did not "decide to invest" after two visits, that/s clear. So why did they visit the second time? And why were they accompanied by both Darden and Vaughn? With an understanding of psychology, it's not much to come up with a hypothesis. August was after ICCF-19. Rossi would have had to make a huge scene if he refused them. In fact, it's possible that the purpose of the visit was to show that. As I say, we don't know what happened. What we do know is that by December, there was major dissent, IH had disavowed the GPT and Penon as ERV, in writing.

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So far, all the investor groups we have heard hearsay on did indeed come visit the plant (Rossi was right on this apparently).

I don't recall anyone denying it. We knew about the Woodford visit. We heard about the Chinese, but had no specifics.

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And we see Rossi could not stop Darden or Vaughn from visiting and bringing whomever they chose with them.

We saw the opposite. It appears that Rossi did not allow McLaughlin to enter with Darden, and Rossi did not allow Murray to visit with Vaughn. By this time, all this evidence has been available, but Ged is ignoring it, and making up his own story, which he tells as if it were irrefutable fact.

With only one exception and until the end of the "test," the last visit was July 7, and Rossi shut down visiting July 13. Get is denying the obvious.

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They could have brought Murray at any time, yet chose not to.

This is correct. They could have brought Murray with them, and defied Rossi's prohibition. They could have created a confrontation. Legally, the plant belong to JM Products, we think. (Who held the lease?) They could have requested the E-Cat back, though that could have been legally a bit tricky at that point. Basically, they could have ended up in court six months earlier, with no issue at all of "GPT." Except Rossi could still have sued, claiming they were unreasonably preventing it.

When Rossi rejected Murray, he was rejecting any possibility that IH might actually cooperate in a test. He was sealing that. And from then on, at by December, no later, IH was taking protective action.

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If Murray showed up by himself and was turned away, oh well, he should have gone with Darden and Vaughn or told them what to look for.

It is obvious that Ged has not studied the documents. Murray did not show up by himself. He didn't show up at all in July, I assume they cancelled the flights. As to "telling them what to look for," that's flat-out crazy. There is no way to do that without seeing the layout. No, I think they made up their minds by July, to let Rossi go his own way. This was definitely not a GPT, the conditions were way crazy for that, with Rossi exerting total control. (I do not know when IH suspected that Rossi was trying to set up a faux GPT, but we know it happened by December because of the mail they sent, then.)

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And if they suspected fraud as IH claims in the counter-claims, it was irresponsible if not dishonest to bring Woodford around to seek investment (and indeed, last we heard Woodford was left with the impression this was merely an IP dispute).

But they did not bring Woodford around to seek investment. You made that up. For the August visit, they already had invested. As to February, they were shown what IH was doing. They decided to invest far from Rossi, in IHHI. If I had seen what the Plant has been described as (by Planet Rossi!), and if IH simply told me the truth about what their experience had been -- as we now have from documents -- I would have not wanted to touch Rossi technology, Ged is here assuming that IH misled Woodford. That's very unlikely. Knowingly mislead people operating on that level, great way to lose everything.

Now, the point here is that Ged is willing to invent an entire story just to be right, and present it as fact. If nobody checks, what he says could appear to be fact. And this is how entire communities can become deluded, on occasion.

The case and the documents are getting complex. Corrections are invited.

And with noplace obvious to put this. I just accidentally found a recent post of mine on E-cat world was indeed "removed." It was a response in a thread that Acland has now shut down entirely: This was the comment I replied to, or one in this sequence.

https://disqus.com/home/discus…world/#comment-2981877749

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Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax Liberty Newspost 15 days ago
Removed

It is plausible that Krivit is funded by Lewis Larsen, of Widom-Larsen theory, which is mostly rejected by the knowledgeable in LENR, but Krivit attacks everything else and promotes WL theory. At one point it was visible that he had a single very large donor, so ... he shut down the nonprofit so he didn't have to make any more reports, at least that is, again, plausible. I don't have proof, just circumstantial evidence. Something made him shift, radically, and, from reporting balanced opinion about Widom-Larsen, he turned 180 degrees and began attacking people he had worked with and who had supported him and deprecating or attacking all critique.

(For a while, Krivit was pulling down about $90,000 per year, plus expenses, from the nonprofit. When a board member pointed out a problem with something he'd done, he suggested the man resign.)

This doesn't particularly explain his position on Rossi; rather that would be coming from his image of himself as "hard-hitting journalist." In other words, a scandal-monger. Rossi was a convenient target.

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That was a summary of my own "investigative journalism" -- extensively documented elsewhere -- on that "hard-hitting investigative journalist."

Krivit's About page has:

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New Energy Times Independence
New Energy Times is an independent news organization whose mission is to investigate, analyze, educate, and report on the progress of new, sustainable, and environmentally friendly energy sources and research.

In order to remain an objective source of news and analysis, New Energy Times does not conduct its own scientific research, does not invest in or maintain ownership in any of the companies or technologies it reports on, and does not try to acquire any intellectual property rights in the field.

Krivit had an nonprofit and originally had some substantial community support. But then something shifted, and it became clear that he had a single large donor. And then he shut down the nonprofit, i.e., he didn't have to report any more. There is nothing there about being paid by "companies ... it reports on." What is clear is that his support is not disclosed, and he became, rather quickly, very one-sided.

Quote from barty

THHuxley wrote:
But it is all FUD: lenr-forum is owned by IH, in bed with snakes, and this thread proves it.
Hmm...did I miss something?

Yes. He's being sarcastic, and there was a thread covering the JONP or E-cat forum "proof." Basically, the Captcha here required spelling "Industrial Heat." I haven't checked it, but I generally assume that such verifiable facts are not lies. This apparent joke was then considered proof of ownership. There can be wolves mixed up with the clueless, their natural food. The clueless here, almost entirely, are not innocent, because they are ready to believe about others what is actually hateful. With just a little more human trust, they would see right through this.

However, I'm not sure that anyone actually believes the story, because Planet Rossi can also be sarcastic, and can make jokes. Why, they are even human -- can you believe that?

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I would say because we don't delete and censor such posts like yours we are totally independent and open for each oppinion, as long as it is not harming others....

There are examples of deletion here where "harm" has been obscure to non-existent. I see no clear appeal process, only some general and vague ideas. Such process could be developed, it is not difficult and would not create an onerous burden. Ultimately, with a forum like this, there is a basic question: who owns it? There must be a legal owner, but is this person owning it for themselves -- which can be a nonprofit purpose, but "promoting my ideas" can be a nonprofit purpose -- or as a trustee for a community. What community?

These questions are mostly ignored when structures form. They can be behind much later disruption, and disempowerment. Consensus, genuine consensus, is powerful because it can be self-enforcing.

There is no doubt that lenr-forum is far more open. I would claim that it is sometimes too open, but some of this is handled by insisting on categorization.... but that insistence is mostly absent, only rarely imposed. There has never been a clearly-designed and implemented structure, that would make the Forum far more useful. To do this would probably take many more active moderators -- but moderators presented with clear and community-accepted guidelines.

Quote from barty

Oh my god...

They say that insanity is a disease you catch from your teenagers. Actually, my experience, we are already insane and teenagers make it obvious.... but that's another story.

Yes, if this was not sarcasm (on Planet Rossi), it's utterly and completely dumb. As to Rossi himself, he chooses what to keep on the blog and what to delete. It appears that he will keep anything that seems supportive of him and attacks his "enemies." At some point, he might be astonished to find the site owner of JONP receiving a subpoena for server records.

If his possible sock puppet posts actually do have some legal relevance, IH could merely ask him under oath and then if he lies, he's created a possible perjury conviction. Ah, what a tangled web we weave! And reality has a way of oozing out around the edges.

His attorneys, he claims, advised him to STFU, but it is possible that he thinks that waving a sock is some exception. He's never been particularly good at understqnding and following legal advice, even when he's bothered to obtain it. Has he followed the necessary security precautions if he wants to avoid detection? It's work. One slip, and all that protection can be useless. Experts have been known to slip up.