Santilli, a more serious Rossi ?

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    @JedRothwell Money was at the bottom of it, for sure.

    ETA- the details are hazy now, but (if I remeber correctly) Defkalion were supposed to come up with bundles of cash for Rossi and for Bologna U to get access to the tech and do some testing. As a former Prof. in the Physics/Astrophysics Dept Stremmenos arranged it, and ended up with no cash for anyone, and egg on his face.

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    Didn't you know, nothing involving LENR is so straightforward as to be only about money? Here is just a taste of the Defkalion/Stremmenos story by Sterling Allan (PESWiki creator, and jailbird):…_of_Lies_and_Megalomania/

    Read below Stremmenos' letter where Sterling does a nice summary.

    Lots more developed after this, and much more before that Sterling did not have the space to mention. DGT deserves it's own separate chapter in the growing book of "LENR, and it's colorful cast of characters". To piece it all together, all one has to do is type in "Defkalion/Stremmenos" in the search box on ECW. Or you can wait for the book. :)

    You just have to love this whole saga. It has been rich in personalities, crosses international boundaries, money, greed, and best of all, there *may be* something legitimate fueling it.

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    In retrospect, Stremmenos seems like the only honest person in the lot of them.

    Perhaps it was actually a falling out over money? I wouldn't know about that.

    EDIT: I was told Xanthoulis was more of commercial than technical profile.
    I share this sad impression and I consider him as the thanksgiving turkey, but I may be wrong.
    My feeling is that there was no upfront fraudulent plant, but no technology finally.

    LENR is so denied, so proven scientifically, so disruptive, that it attract too many dreamers, some of them who facing failure cannot accept it, because of emotional and financial challenges.

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    I was told he was more of commercial than technical profile.

    I think in this instance the commercial imperative drove things increasingly. Without his background in Physics and acquaintance with Focardi, then the technical interest would not have occured -but remeber that Stremmenos was also about to or had just retired. When the salary stops - even with a pension - then commercial pressures, the chance of pulling off a financial coup can become more important. That is why so many people -who in theory are old enough to know better - are scammed out of their pension savings in the UK, where George Osborne (our beloved Finance Minister) made it easier for the crooks.

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    I misunderstood the comment, reading too fasts.
    I hope Stremmenos was not too much wounded, and I consider he was finally out of the tragedy.

    I have some modest compassion for Alexandros Xanthoulis, whose money I think was washed by his team in a desperate flee from reality.

  • Didn't you know, nothing involving LENR is so straightforward as to be only about money? Here is just a taste of the Defkalion/Stremmenos story by Sterling Allan (PESWiki creator, and jailbird):

    The fields of LENR or alternative fusion research is wide open and in most part secrete...

    Ingredients needed: A somehow plausible theory - at least 1000 pages - and you finally get followers.


    And even worse: A wrong theory may lead to astonishing positive results. Even Mills' hydrino theory might at the end be refuted, but the results of his research are a real breakthrough.

    Thus it's easy to cry scam! But on the other side the same holds for "effect proven!" - even if it worked according to an other theory.

    Thus keep in mind: We all walk over a field of mines and the worst result are mind blowers, we produce ourselves.

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    If that is true, it is simply because Defkalion could never convince any really wealthy investor that they OR ROSSI had anything that worked. When Dick Smith asked for a proper test, for example, he was turned down. Defkalion tried to get the kernel of the invention from Rossi. Rossi, like he did with IH, wanted money up front in return for nothing but promises. Defkalion (probably mostly Hadjichristos) then convinced a few silly investors including Stremmenos and Xanthoulis that they could copy what Rossi had without needing Rossi. In a sense, they were right. Rossi had nothing but deception and Defkalion copied that.

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    Defkalion did wrap themselves with at least a thin veneer of scientific credibility. Without which, I doubt they would have gained the traction they did.

    The first link is to the test protocol Michael Nelson (NASA engineer) followed in verifying an earlier version of DGT's Hyperion reactor. Nelson is no dummy, so that gave them some legitimacy. As I recall, Nelson did not do this evaluation representing NASA, but was funded by a good samaritan individual or group.

    Second is just an internal DGT report, but it is detailed. The third link is interesting though. It is Yeong Kim/John Hadjichristos', ICCF18 presentation where they show COP 3. Yes, DGT's video demo at the same conference revealed their fatal error/trick with the water flow, so their excess heat claim can be dismissed. But in this presentation they also reported "Ni even isotopic shifts" with that "observed" excess heat. No shift for the odd isotopes.

    And from LF recently, we also found out that in 2015, Prof. Kim (University of Purdue) was funded by both IH, and Cumberland Western. Lots of money involved, so IH/WC must trust Kim's skills:

    Nevalinna on Cobraf : Yeong E Kim funded by Industrial Heat and Cumberland & Western Resources

  • Going to a plasma based system is the only way to develop a competitive COP in the future LENR marketplace.

    There are three systems who have had or are going through the same development stage, and money is the lifeblood that moves this R&D effort forward. Going to the plasma stage in LENR is difficult. Defkalion failed because they ran out of money, mainly because they were more inherently honest and revealing then the other two.

    Rossi is a more savvy fundraiser. He invents his own facts to get to where he needs to go. But the Quake is a plasma based system that suffers from hard to solve material, control, and structural issues. To solve his power density problems, Rossi has diluted his quark down to 20 watts of output to keep is from melting down. It is not certain that his method for aggregating 10s of thousands of these quarks together will not result in power density related meltdowns. But putting that meltdown issue off until Rossi gets additional funding for manufacture will commit his future partners to continue additions R&D finding to solve these nasty problems.

    THe last system going through the plasma stage birthpangs is BrLP whose reactor melts down is seconds when at full power. They are the most funding savvy of the three systems developers because they have invested decades in producing a financial based scientific religion like doctrinaire and a large congregation of devoted and fanatic apostles.

    BrLP, is going the the plasma development storms, but are most likely to receive the R&D funding needed to solve all the problems ahead, that is, to keep their reactor from melting down.

  • Alan: I never said Xanthoulis was innocent. I used to read what these two jokers used to write and none of it made sense, especially if it needed translation. So I don't know who knew what and gave what. And of course, now, it couldn't matter less. Nobody is likely to try to prosecute anyone else about Defkalion. Stremmenos, in particular, was fond of flowery and completely meaningless oratory. If I suggested one gave money and the other was a hapless victim, my mistake -- that was not my intent. I do not know their precise roles. I do know Hadjichristos was Liar in Chief. That I am sure about. Whether either S or X actually believed H, I have no idea.

    Shane, Nelson was making assumptions and issuing reports way outside his areas of competence so yes, he was a dummy and yes, he was roundly and easily duped. So was Lewan (as usual). Hadjichristos was the source of the lies. Defkalion never demoe'd anything other than junk. Pretty much what Rossi did though the junk has gotten more elaborate as he has been able to spend some of the money IH gave him on making it look slightly better -- better than the rusty plumbing cobbled together by his original 90+ year old plumber who constructed the original ecats.

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    Yeong E. Kim, from Cumberland & Western Resources, Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, $2,488,596

    Kim, Yeong E; physics, from Industrial Heat LLC, $469,327, “Low-Energy Nuclear Reaction Research (LENRR).

    Little doubt DGT was bogus, but it seems odd Prof. Kim would attract $3 million from IH/CWR for his theory only. That is not even patentable, and his is only one of the many unproven theories floating around. None of which -with the exception of Mills GUTCP, has been fully, 100% backed up by experimental results.

    So why then would they give Kim so much money? I would think there must be something practical he knows, that makes him valuable to investors seeking LENR+ commercialization. Yet, his only practical experience seems to have been with DGT and their Hyperion, until later when hired as a consultant by Cyclone Engines:…wer-technologies-on-lenr/

    Like everything LENR, there must be something more we don't know about. This does not add up, unless, as Axil/Gluck have claimed, DGT had something and invested in Kim to extract that know-how.

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    So why then would they give Kim so much money?

    Because they are negligent with other people's money, just as they were in the Rossi case? Or because they have no clue whatever how to test claims involving physical sciences and technology?


    Like everything LENR, there must be something more we don't know about. This does not add up, unless, as Axil/Gluck have claimed, DGT had something and invested in Kim to extract that know-how.

    It adds up perfectly if you assume IH are acting like bozos. And Defkalion never had anything. And I doubt that Kim was in on it or profited from it. He just got flummoxed like Nelson and Lewan and many others.

  • So why then would they give Kim so much money?

    Along with Julian Seymour Schwinger, Kim was the one of the originators of the coherence theory of LENR.

    J. Schwinger, Nuclear Energy in an Atomic Lattice, in The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion. 1990.


    “This representation of the overall probability, per unit time, as the product of two independent factors, may be true enough under the circumstances of hot fusion. But in very low energy cold fusion one deals essentially with a single state, or wave function, all parts of which are coherent. It is not possible to totally isolate the effect of the electric forces from that of the nuclear forces.”

    Other notable researchers including Dr. Giuliano Preparata have also recognized the central role of coherence in LENR


    Coherent self-organization in cold fusion

    Dr Kim is the only remaining old master who can break the trail to the true path to LENR, well worth the money he was given by the wise LENR investor class.

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    I was referring to this comment of yours from that thread:

    "If IH is investing in Dr. Kim's theory, IH is actually investing in the ill fated Defkalion technology. The common wisdom is that DGT had nothing. But this latest move from IH speaks against this nonsense. IH does not permit dimwitted venial jealousies to prohibit them from looking for the diamonds in the rough. IH believes the Dr Kim has those sparkling diamonds stored in his memory banks as informed by the experiments that he observed at Defkalion. This teaches us that the jealous rantings of so many infamous characters mean nothing when it comes to the pursuit of money. Once those slanders have done their disgusting work, it is time for the smart money to pick up the pieces and turn shard reminisce of the dreams and genius of the defeated into gold. This also teaches a lesson about the FUD operations and the war to dominate that they come from directed at putting the competition out of business so that the smart money can take advantage of the never ending FUD storm."

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    I don't see much link between Dr Kim and DGT.
    DGT invited him, and he heard them told stories which he did not reject upfront at the time DGT was looking trustful.
    Dr Kim is not an experimentalist, so his opinion on experiments and business is less essential than the one of a HVAC expert, or a SEC expert.

    About why someone may fund theoretical research that cannot be patented there is a clear economic capitalist answer.
    Theory of LENR if found is a huge positive externality, not only to all LENR innovator, but to would-be LENR innovators and to all innovators, and also to many incumbent actor ready to innovate.
    It will allow many people to develop LENr reacto that works reliably, and this many device and business model that are more effecive than the current one.

    Those who have their business model endangered, if then take the train, will benefit too.

    So even a sausage manufacturer should fund LENR research if he think their is a chance to succeed, because he will be able to save on cooking costs and to sell more expensive sausage because of economic growth and poor countries getting richer and eating more sausage.

  • As pointed out by Ed Storms, Dr, Kim, like all the theorist that place coherence at the center of their theories, what they all neglect to explain is how can coherence happen in a system that produces temperatures of the LENR reaction that can get to and beyond 7000K. Science says that room temperature superconductivity is problematic let alone plasma based superconductivity.

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    Yes Alain, but $3 million is still a lot of money for a theorist who may not be right. Do you know of any others (pure theorists) that have attracted any private funding at all, much less that much?

    It seems the budget of a lab, with experiments, for few years...

    I know Dr Kim as theoretician, but it he is als a group leader too.

    • Group Leader, Purdue Nuclear and Many-Body Theory Group
    • Director, Center for Sensing Science and Technology (CSST)

    We probably miss some information.