Andrea Rossi's Elegant Quark vs. Rube Goldberg's Post Humous Suncell

Andrea Rossi's Quark, if tested and verified to perform as claimed, is an advanced cold fusion technology that screams of simplicity and elegance. The general consensus from those I speak to is that the Quark is simply a hollow cylinder composed of one or more heat resistant substances (perhaps both sapphire and a custom made material) containing the fuel "charge." This central tube may in some variations be fully or partially surrounded by a second cylinder (perhaps to thermalize the light and/or protect the eyes). The ends of the tube are connected to wires that provide electricity, probably in the form of specially selected waveforms. If Rossi's assertions are correct, for .5 watts of input the device can produce 20 watts of output in the form of thermal energy -- although these numbers are non-final and in flux. In some variations, a portion of the output can also be in the form of light and electricity.

The above described device is a BIG DEAL. Such performance, even with a "mere" COP of 40 and only 20 watts of output, would provide a breakthrough energy source for the world. And once further developed by teams of professional engineers -- after the initial commercialization phases are complete -- the technology would obviously advance further. Tiny form factor, ultra high temperatures, high power output, simple construction, cheap fuel: any improvement in what has been claimed already would seem a little like trying to push the anti-matter engines of the Star Ship Enterprise a little harder when they are already propelling the ship at warp nine.

Conversely, Black Light Power's Suncell does not impress me nearly to the same degree. To begin with, the device is complex with numerous sub-systems all requiring cutting edge technology. This is not even counting the as of yet untested (unless I'm wrong) high intensity solar panel apparatus required to convert the light generated by the system into electricity. On the surface, there seem to be countless critical mechanisms in the Suncell that could be very prone to failure.

Of course the Suncell might work -- just like the last half dozen or more "breakthroughs" proclaimed by Randell Mills over the past twenty years might have worked. I've watched BLP over the years and read press releases describing a wide array of systems they proclaimed were about to be IMMEDIATELY COMMERCIALIZED. Repeatedly after many PDFs being posted and much hype being spread, nothing happened, with little explanation as to why.

So when it comes to the Suncell, I see three major tasks for Black Light Power.

1) Prove that their intentions for the Suncell are any different than the various other technologies they have declared were close to commercialization in the past. Can they truly prove they are not going to drop this device like a hot potato in a few months and move on, yet again, to something else?

2) Prove that the Suncell actually produces the power output they claim for long periods of time. Can they run a Suncell for several hours or a day and use convincing calorimetry to prove the massive power output they are proclaiming?

3) Prove that the Suncell can operate continually, reliably, and consistently -- without constant failures of critical components -- for months or longer. The COP and power output figures they predict for their final products are enormously exciting. However, I find it challenging, although not impossible, to believe such a complex device can function without breakdown for even a couple months. What they need to perform is a torture test. When will the first one be scheduled?

There's a chance that BLP may prove the above three issues. I think it would be pretty exciting if they did. But even in the best case, their system would still lag the still unverified Quark.

In my thinking, both of these systems probably utilize LENR processes -- perhaps very similar ones. I find it plausible that similar conditions are present both in the molten silver streams of the Suncell and the hydrogen filled micro-structures (cavities, bubbles, voids) of the nickel or other metal particles in the E-Cat and Quark. In these tiny small cavities or bubbles, enormous pressures and temperatures could be created that rival those in the Suncell. So, in one line of thinking, a single Quark reactor could contain a million nanometer sized Suncells! This elegant setup would not require any of the complicated sub-systems required by the Suncell. Instead, the nickel or metal particles in the Quark produce their own LENR reactors.

I am eager to see what happens with both of these technologies. But I'm convinced that if they both make it onto the market, the victor is already known.

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MrSS.

When it comes to Rossi, the old adage: "fool me once shame on you, fool
me twice shame on me" applies. He first fooled me with his Ecat, even
after his many obvious lies over the years on his JONP, but with this
QuarkX thing...count me out. Not going there again with this guy.

More power to you though, as believing in a world changing invention is a
powerful thrill. I do miss that with Rossi, but I just can not make
myself do that anymore with him. Especially with this QuarkX, which is
so Steorn-like.

Thank goodness though, it just so happens BrLP came along at the right
time for me, and now I get my thrill believing in them. Beats that Rossi
guy.
BTW, did you read about the new BrLP "Advisory Board" assembled? Real
heavyweights from real companies. Serious backgrounds too. Best yet, you
can actually read their names. BTW, do you know the name of a single
member, advisory board, BODs, employee, or anyone for that matter in
Rossi's "Leonardo" corporation?

Can you drive up to his warehouse, lab, or corporate headquarters like you can with BLP in their New Jersey facility?

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I disagree with you about the E-Cat technology. I'm convinced it works. We have to separate Rossi's technology from his personality, eccentricities, and the ways he has been deceptive. Personally, I'm convinced that in a certain way he is almost a genius. And this combined with his obsessive compulsive work ethic allowed him to come up with several working, real variations of the Energy Catalyzer technology. On the other hand, his behavior and antics (some possibly justified and others absolutely not) is VERY difficult for most people to understand. He's beyond a wild card. Furthermore, I don't think he behavior patterns can be fully and accurately predicted by any model. When you think you understand him, he does something you didn't even consider. But underneath his intellect, paranoia (good or bad depending on the situation), and eccentricities (Nikola Tesla was a total weirdo but he changed the world with dozens of inventions) he has a real technology. I've communicated with too many individuals (on and off the record) who have either observed his tests, communicated with him, or performed replications for me to think the E-Cat is a hoax. Could he have exaggerated, fudged numbers, or even flat out lied about certain E-Cat tests? Sure. With the Doral test, I'd say some level of dishonesty is very probable. But if you follow everything that has transpired from the early testing with Focardi up to the current day the only reasonable conclusion, in my opinion which could be wrong, is that the tech is real.

To be honest, following exotic energy technologies is not as much of a thrill for me as it used to be. I still get excited from time to time. However, inventors and replicators often give me major headaches when they go about their testing, marketing, or public relations in ways that I consider illogical or incorrect. When they do lie and deceive, they irritate me even more. Of course I've never been an inventor of an exotic energy technology. I don't know the pressures and stresses inventors must endure trying to further develop their technology, figure out who they can trust, ward away their enemies who want to steal their technology, raise funds, secure intellectual property, and bring their technology to the market. This is a massive undertaking. And I'm sure when someone is inherently paranoid from being stalked and falsely imprisoned (like Rossi has been) this process adds even more stress. I have to try hard not to get TOO irate against inventors who may be going through more than I can imagine.

Also, I'd like to say there is no comparison between Steorn and Rossi. They are totally different. Andrea Rossi, regardless of all the drama that has taken place, is determined to push out real physic products. He is an industrialist. Maybe he has made some bad decisions (along with some good ones) but he wants his technology on the market. Steorn, on the other hand, had very real anomalies that they were able to get third parties to reproduce. But they had ZERO intention of launching a product until near the end of Steorn (remember Hepha Heat is still around). Before then, their goal was to collect a huge mass of IP and eventually convince a major company to license a chunk of it from them for a massive amount of money. So they found anomaly after anomaly, built a few test rigs to verify them, and then moved on to the next one. If they would have focused on one of a number of their technologies, they could have brought something *working* to the market. Instead, they launched the O-Phone which didn't even use "real" Orbo tech (Orbo was a magnetic technology and not electrostatic). Worse, the O-Phone must have launched with little to no quality control resulting in devices that were prone to breaking. Rossi really isn't interested in licensing out his technology unless he is required to do so to obtain the funds to continue his research.

Black Light Power is somewhat interesting and somewhat exciting, but I can't help but yawn due to their track record. At any moment, I can see them withdrawing the Suncell, going silent for several months or a year, and announcing another invention. The only reason I think the Suncell MIGHT be different is that the reaction is mostly LENR which increases the output thousands of times. The Hydrino reaction was limited to a few hundred eV at most, but fusion reactions can produce millions of eV. My guess is that what's happening in the Suncell might possibly be what's happening in the E-Cat. If this is the case, Rossi has the winning setup with the Quark -- if his claims are verified -- and BLP has a Rube Goldberg device that may take many more years to develop.

To answer your question, I don't know who works with Rossi on a day to day basis. But what's amazing to me is that he's gotten as far as he has mostly singlehandedly with a few assistants and a handful of scientists giving him theoretical advice. BLP has probably had hundreds of employees over the years and dozens of third parties working with them, but they have not accomplished as much as Andrea Rossi.

Rossi did not water down the power density. That idea is absurd!

The Quark is only producing twenty watts, but it is TINY. We're talking about something the size of a small piece of a coffee stirrer or smaller. This thin little tube is also operating at a temperature of up to 1600C producing FORTY TIMES or more the output that it takes in. The power density has not dropped at all. If anything, the higher temperature means that the power density has INCREASED because the amount of irradiated power that is emitted from any object goes up at a rate faster than linear as the temperature increases.

You make it sound like Rossi took one of his plastic two liter soda container sized "hot cats" and kept dropping the output from several kilowatts, to hundreds of watts, to twenty watts. The power output did indeed drop, but so did the size of the reactor! Compared to the soda container sized reactors, a Quark is practically NOTHING.

Literally, the Quark is no larger than a short segment of wire!

Rossi has kept his power density the same or increased it while BLP had to build a Rube Goldberg device to produce possibly the power density the E-Cat achieves in runaway. I think there may be a place for both technologies, but the Quark will be much cheaper and easier to commercialize.

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I disagree. The SunCell produces a maximum power of 5 megawatts in the same volume that a single Quark uses to produce 20 watts. The SunCell can use its 5,000K temperature to heat CO2 to produce 90% thermal efficiency whereas the quark must heats water to produce stream and uses a thermal efficiency of 40%. The amount of structural material to produce a SunCell is orders of magnitude less than what the same sized Quark reactor can manage.

Less material for structure means a lower cost to produce the product.

First of all, we don't know exactly how much power the Suncell produces -- the same is true of the Quark. But I know for a fact it doesn't produce megawatts or even kilowatts in a couple cubic centimeters of space! You are inappropriately comparing the output of a large device (the Suncell) to the output of a minuscule device (the Quark). The volume of these two devices are NOT anywhere near comparable: they are magnitudes different in size!

Secondly, the Quark can achieve temperatures of up to 1,600C. At this temperature there are many methods by which heat can be efficiently converted to electricity. There are all sorts of technologies that could be used that don't even require turbines of any kind! Once you get to this area -- much higher and there are few materials that can withstand the heat for any significant duration -- going hotter yields less and less benefits and more complications.

Thirdly, the SunCell is a very complicated device with many systems that could be prone to failing. The Quark, on the other hand, is a very simple device made up of a very few components. I think the Quark is likely to be very reliable while it might take years for the SunCell to be made reliable.

Fourth, the Quark can produce electricity directly while the SunCell cannot, at least yet.

Fifth, When it comes to structural material, I disagree that to create the same amount of output much more material would be required for the Quark. An individual Quark reactor is tiny, and I can imagine sheets of Quarks, perhaps one meter square and a few centimeters thick (about the size of a residential solar panel) producing hundreds of kilowatts of power. These E-Cat power panels would have no moving parts, no streams of molten silver, and far fewer systems than a SunCell. And if a Quark fails or needed to be replaced, you could pop out the old one and slide a new one in. Basically, they would be like a panel of fuses, each producing electricity either via a solid state conversion technology OR directly.

The SunCell may turn out to be very powerful and competitive with the Quark, but BLP has to prove that the very complex device actually produces the output they claim, won't be prone to failure, and will be capable of operating for months or years at a time. While they are trying to make the SunCell into a commercial device, I think Rossi will have already flooded the market with Quarks.

I've done some reading and found nothing indicating that temperatures higher than 1,600C are required for operation of a high efficiency CO2 turbine. You make it sound like much higher temperatures are required, but they are not.

The following document mentions temperatures of supercritical CO2 between 120C and 550C.

http://www.swri.org/4org/d18/s…stemConcepts/06-Moroz.pdf

In the following paper, a graph lists a temperature between 850C and 1200C.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/s…cle/pii/S1738573315001606

So the Quark would be capable of powering a super critical CO2 turbine.

By the time the SunCell emerges on the market, however, Andrea Rossi will probably be pushing out the Quark 2.0 which will reliably produce electricity directly. This will eliminate the need for any conversion technology.

I want to say, of course, that the claims for both the SunCell and the Quark need to be verified.

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One of the major achievements of the Department of Energy's advanced turbine program was to break through previous limitations on turbine temperatures, using a combination of innovative cooling technologies and advanced materials. The advanced turbines that emerged from the Department's research program were able to boost turbine inlet temperatures to as high as 2600 degrees F - nearly 300 degrees hotter than in previous turbines, and achieve efficiencies as high as 60 percent.

2600F is 1427C. That is lower than the maximum operating temperature of the Quark. Basically, there is no existing CO2 turbine that is not compatible with the temperatures the Quark can produce.

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The SunCell produces 1.2 Megawatts average with a 5 Megawatts maximum as tested.

My understanding is that they have not used long term calorimetry to determine the power output. They have measured to slope of temperature increases, but have not performed regular flow calorimetry or even a setup like Parkhomov's original one in which a known quantity of water is evaporated. I'm not saying these numbers are false, but they need verification. Then we need verification that these reactors can operate for long periods of time.

Even if all of BLP's claims turn out to be true, the Quark can produce a comparable output and with a much simpler setup.

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Rossi uses steam, his patent is based on heating a fluid in most cases water so his output is steam. This makes him limited to a few hundred centigrade of output temperature. So sorry.

The Quark can be used by his customers to heat any fluid, gas, or super-critical substance. The applications are not limited to his patent. Once the Quarks are being mass manufactured, they can be used to power super critical CO2 turbines. The idea that the Quark can only be used to heat liquids to a few hundred degrees centigrade is RIDICULOUS.

By the way, I watched that video you linked. If you watch it to the end, you will see Randell Mills HIMSELF state that the bursts of heat at the megawatt level never lasted for more than a minute and many only lasted seconds. He corrects the person lecturing by stating that the system may have been in operation at a lower power level for thirty minutes, but the high level spikes only lasted seconds. There is a TON more engineering that needs to be done to make the SunCell ready to produce megawatts of output for hours at a time, much less months.

If what Rossi says about the Quark can be verified, it is already close to being ready for the market. It may operate at a slightly lower maximum temperature than the SunCell, but 1,600C is more than enough for almost any energy producing application. Combined with a COP of 40, it will be capable of changing the world.

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Where did Rossi say that he will permit the sale of the Quark on a piece part basis? Rossi's control system will be tuned to run based on his patent and his years of debugging and he will not allow anybody to change his control system. In addition, the third party developers might reverse engineer something of Rossi's. The big advantage that R. Mills brings to the market is that his SunCell is an open system. Partners will be able to add value and are doing so now.

I suggest that you verify your fantasies by asking Rossi directly on his blog to substantiate all the dreams that you are dreaming.

Rossi will HAVE to permit the sale of the Quark's on a piece part basis, because the demand will be enormous and there is no way he would be able to ramp up production of a thousand different applications. Otherwise, he will miss out on 99% of his potential sales. I am certain he will figure this out very quickly.

And you are totally 100% correct that third party developers will reverse engineer Rossi's technology. I'm totally 100% certain of it. They'll not only reverse engineer it, but they will improve it. Then there will be dozens of copy cats producing simple high powered LENR devices producing heat, light, and electricity. He will never be able to fight them all legally. The only option he will have is to mass produce the Quark in the hundreds of millions of units and sell them to anyone who will buy. This will slow down the copy cats, but it won't be able to stop them.

Basically, the Quark already has many advantages over the complicated Rube Goldberg device called the SunCell and reverse engineered versions will have even more advantages. I'm not living in fantasy here, I'm living in reality. The delusion is that a very complex system with tons of components can operate producing megawatts of power for long periods of time without failures. It will take BLP years to engineer the Suncell to operate for months at a time and then it will take years to ramp up the production. The simplicity of the Quark will mean that it is less likely to fail and easy to mass produce. Billions of Quarks could have been sold before the first SunCell goes on the market.