Not sure who the principals [of Florida Energy Trust] are here--I think it's in the depositions somewhere.
From memory, Rossi and USQL.
ETA: link. Florida Energy Trust is an equal manager with Fabiani of USQL.
(Finally all sorted out.)
Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]
- barty
- Closed
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Alan (Fletcher), re your idea about the Grundfos pump, you might be right, but interesting to note that your hunch appears to conflict with that of Engineer48. I believe that Engineer48 needs the Grundfos in order to pump the water (steam) back to the reservoir. (Not 100 percent sure.)
Would that water filter and clear plastic housing show rust stains if dirty water were to flow through the filter?
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April 7 2015 was supposed to have the power off (actually Rossi didn't write the temperatures down for the 6th), but FPL reports regular (typical) supply on and around that day.
Just before the test, on Feb 21-22, the warehouse used 1MWh each day based on the FPL records.
(245-16)
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Interesting comment from Andreas Moraitis: "These industrial dryers consume up to 3.5 million BTU/h (that’s about 1 MWh/h)". He links to this picture, with the additional apt comment, "Look at the impressive exhausts...":
I'm unable to vouch for Moraitis's claim. I'd guess that there's an order of magnitude more volume in the exhaust ventilation in this picture than anything contemplated so far in connection with the Doral facility.
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I found the irony in this comment from Enginer48 to be amusing: "IH seems to ignore a lot of data that is inconvenient to their story."
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Possibly what will turn out to be The Greatest Blunder of This Century can be shared by IH and Rossi.
They are both to blame. And the world will be poorer because of it at least in the short term.
Part 1 of the blunder: It began with the initiation of the JMP ruse. Once Darden sleuthed it out, he probably panicked. The cloud of suspicion had been kicked up, and for Darden, his only good option was to hire experts and believe them. He did not have the option of not believing his experts.
Part 2 of the blunder: Darden hired the wrong experts. They have been unable to understand the 1 MW plant and the JMP-side equipment. E48 in a single set of comments has cast more light on the configuration and its operation than all of IH's experts combined. In addition, IH's experts have shown a predisposition not to believe or understand LENR or the rich set of experimental evidence that proves it, and some of them have been openly hostile in their writings about it. IH hired the wrong experts. They don't know or appreciate the LENR field, and therefore were unprepared to accept that the e-Cat could work.
It doesn't matter who wins this dispute. I think IH will win based on the JMP ruse. The simple fact that it has swallowed up most critical technical analysis on this forum is evidence that it will swallow up the jury as well.
I include one important caveat to my theory. We still have not run to ground the existence or lack thereof of the heat exchanger. We see four pipes coming out of the JMP black box and running along the ceiling. We don't know what those are or where they go. If the heat exchanger never existed, all bets are off.
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I include one important caveat to my theory. We still have not run to ground the existence or lack thereof of the heat exchanger. We see four pipes coming out of the JMP black box and running along the ceiling. We don't know what those are or where they go. If the heat exchanger never existed, all bets are off.
Rossi testified (and told Wong upon which he based his analysis) that the heat exchanger was on the 2nd floor mezzanine, air cooled and powered by 2 25K CFM fans inserted into the bottom lites of the middle window. The only physical evidence Rossi provides is the 20 minutes Wong was there during his site visit 1 year after the test where he just happened to witness the repair of the window. There is no other physical evidence for the heat exchanger there, no design records, no financial records, no eyewitnesses. Nothing. There is evidence for lack of a heat exchanger as described by Rossi--numerous pictures of the intact window and analyses that it would not be possible to cool 1MW/h heat with the set up described.
Now Rossi did generate some heat and he probably sent that into an insulated container (customer black box) where it wound through some pipes and returned no doubt cooler. That heat had to go somewhere. I wouldn't be surprised if he vented out those pipes and up through the ceiling and cargo doors or some other simple mechanism to expel the heat that he did generate.
Why would Rossi lie about a heat exchanger? Maybe he didn't really generate 1MW/h of heat?
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I don't know much endothermic action you can get from a few grams of Pt sponge...
Hopefully he caught it all in that filter.
However, it looks as though the filter would be rather rusty if the filter were actually used.
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Alan (Fletcher), re your idea about the Grundfos pump, you might be right, but interesting to note that your hunch appears to conflict with that of Engineer48. I believe that Engineer48 needs the Grundfos in order to pump the water (steam) back to the reservoir. (Not 100 percent sure.)
Would that water filter and clear plastic housing show rust stains if dirty water were to flow through the filter?
I think that Engineer48 has some things right about the piping, and some things wrong.
For instance, he has some weird feedback from the Grundfos with steam flowing "backwards" in the insulated pipe.I think there's a valve just above the Grundfos, and a valve in the insulated steam line which he labels "Differential Pressure Steam Valve".
I think one or other is turned on, so normal flow is in the insulated pipe. Turn that off and the grundfos valve on to bypass through the filter, which is MUCH too clean.
E48 has always argued that there's a primary pump (never pictured), and that the array of pumps are just used to top up the Big Frankies so the fins are partly submerged (boiler) and partly above water (super-heating).
His diagram is now :Note that Smith's "Steam Riser" is red, but E48's condenser return is not connected to it.
Edit : here's E48's response to a John Page (JP) schematic :
But there's nothing to pump the bottom "Dual condensate flow".
Either Rossi OR IH could produce an accurate as-built schematic with annotated photos.
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I guess I missed the part where ~18,000 L/d water turned to steam becomes ~96000 L/d water somehow....
Is there flow supposed to be coming from somewhere else into BFs?
The serpentine needs to be filled up with water to start?
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Abd is doing sterling work on http://coldfusioncommunity.net/ with the legal stuff. I'm wondering if the mods here could reassure him about quoting (extensively) posts here when commenting on them from his alternate platform. I see no harm in his doing that, and much good, but he seems to think someone objects to this.
THH
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Turn that off and the grundfos valve on to bypass through the filter, which is MUCH too clean.
One assumption to avoid, of course, is that the filter was always clean. Presumably it could have been swapped out with a fresh filter late in the timeline. But I do think it is interesting nonetheless that the filter and the housing around it are really clean if the water lines running into the ProMinent pumps are so dirty. I would have expected there to be indelible rust stains in the clear housing of the filter even if the filter was swapped out. I suppose the housing itself could have been replaced as well if one wants to avoid all assumptions whatsoever.
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I think that Engineer48 has some things right about the piping, and some things wrong.
For instance, he has some weird feedback from the Grundfos with steam flowing "backwards" in the insulated pipe.I think there's a valve just above the Grundfos, and a valve in the insulated steam line which he labels "Differential Pressure Steam Valve".
I think one or other is turned on, so normal flow is in the insulated pipe. Turn that off and the grundfos valve on to bypass through the filter, which is MUCH too clean.
E48 has always argued that there's a primary pump (never pictured), and that the array of pumps are just used to top up the Big Frankies so the fins are partly submerged (boiler) and partly above water (super-heating).
His diagram is now :Note that Smith's "Steam Riser" is red, but E48's condenser return is not connected to it.
Edit : here's E48's response to a John Page (JP) schematic :
But there's nothing to pump the bottom "Dual condensate flow".
Either Rossi OR IH could produce an accurate as-built schematic with annotated photos.
Yes. I don't find it easy to decide what the arrangement actually is.
The issue about differing flowrates is for me central to the test integrity, because if there is as Smith suggests a path from the Grundfoss output back to the claimed steam output that accounts for the additional flow, the same path can easily account for all the flow with the e-cat pumps switched off most of the time and no significant power output: self-sustain mode.
If there is no such path then we need something weird and another pump, or (also weird, and contradicted by the output temperature) the unused ecats pumping cold water to the output.
Physical evidence will surely show this so I guess Smith's report is a marker for later evidence. I think if Rossi wants to contest it later he needs at this stage some sort of contrary evidence. For the MSJ it is mostly irrelevant. Smith's report is not sworn evidence and I'd guess that means it cannot be taken as undisputed fact at Discovery and MSJ stage - but I might be wrong.
I think E48 is half-right about the steam issue. Yes the Tigers are controlled so they remain half-full of water. That would make sense, because then what comes out is steam without water overflowing the output. No it need not be superheated steam and at the noted constant output temperature can't be that, it will be steam in equilibrium with water. Having the same fins half-submerged is not a superheater, because the fins will be cooled where submerged to a temperature close to boiling point.
The system from current evidence remains very undetermined. The key issue is:
- Is there a recirculation path bypassing the ecats as Smith suggests
- Is something weird happening, to make the additional flow, in which case we need an additional pump.
- Is the flowmeter over-reading massively.
Even with all the unanswered questions one of the above three must I think be true. The next question is whether Rossi's output pressure and temperature sensors can be trusted. The pressure readings seem extraordinarily low. The temperature reading (if real) seems only compatible with mixed steam and water at a pressure plausible for this system but higher than that read by the pressure sensor.
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THH, I'll raise your question internally, since I don't know myself.
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It doesn't matter who wins this dispute. I think IH will win based on the JMP ruse. The simple fact that it has swallowed up most critical technical analysis on this forum is evidence that it will swallow up the jury as well.
I include one important caveat to my theory. We still have not run to ground the existence or lack thereof of the heat exchanger. We see four pipes coming out of the JMP black box and running along the ceiling. We don't know what those are or where they go. If the heat exchanger never existed, all bets are off.
The external critical analysis is limited to the documents from Discovery published. That is much less than the total evidence available from Discovery - and omits the expert opinion and analysis that can be brought forward to test matters in the actual Trial. Experts and other witnesses cross-examined will give a Jury a much more complete view than we have.
If the heat exchanger can be proven never to have existed then Rossi is guilty of perjury. Other than that I can't see it alters matters much, since if it could have existed it would still not be able to dissipate 1MW, and this can easily be shown.
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Does anybody have any idea on what sort of endothermic processing exists which involves the direct exposure of various catalysts (platinum, nickel, graphene - apparently) to hot water or steam? Apparently the insulated tubes inside the JM black container contained reactors with those catalysts.
http://coldfusioncommunity.net…01/0207.17_Exhibit_17.pdf
QuoteDisplay MoreQ. This is the -- what you testified earlier, this is the platinum sponge that you put into cylinders --
A. Yes.
Q. -- correct?
A. Correct.
Page 220Q. Then you insert it into the tubing on the J.M. Products side of the Doral warehouse?
A. You are correct.
Q. Okay. And what was supposed to be -- and the combination of the heat from the steam and the pressure in the
tubes was going to alter the platinum sponge?
A. It's a pretty complex thing but in -- if you want to say it in a very restricted nutshell, yes.
http://coldfusioncommunity.net…/01/0194.08_Exhibit_8.pdf
QuoteDisplay MoreQ. All right. Without getting into the details of what other substance was involved, I am going to refer just for a
second here. I am going to refer to the -- whatever product J.M. Products was working on that involved platinum
sponge, and I understand there is a product that involved graphene and then a third product that involved --
somehow involved nickel. I want to ask for just a time period -- some time period questions. Was J.M. Products
working on -- first on a product that involved platinum sponge, then a product that involved nickel,
then a product that involved graphene? Was it one after the other or were they all going on at the same
time?
A. I have understood. Initially we worked only with platinum sponges, initially. Eventually I added theother matters and they have been treated
Page 242
together in different reactors inside the steam line. -
Interesting coincidence, may or may not be relevant:
* * *
US 20050028858 A1 - Thermoelectric module and generator
Inventors: Andrea Rossi
Description
[...][0048] Also for what it concerns the thermoelectric materials there can be changes with respect to the couple platinum-tellurium.
[0049] For example the couple platinum-nickel, further to generating electric power, showed an unexpected catalyzing effect on the exhaust of diesel combustion engines.
[0050] Indeed, Pt—Ni modules according to the invention were tested on the exhaust of diesel engines and proved themselves efficacious as catalyzers for the depurating exhaust.
Claims1. Thermoelectric module, comprising: a plurality of thermoelectric materials with opposed polarity connected by a first and a second conductive element wherein such thermoelectric materials are configured according to respective coating layers applied on at least one of the conductive elements.
[...]
7. The module according to claim 1, wherein said coating layers are respectively made of platinum and nickel thereby providing, further to a thermoelectric effect, also a catalyzer effect on the exhaust of internal combustion engines.
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We now know that all those written claims that the super secret customer wouldn't let IH or anyone else see the JMP side were fabrications of Rossi.
Could you please tell me why you feel so sure about that? I have not read all the documents yet, but I have read number 207-41, where you can find this email from Rossi to Darden:
"Today I got the solid hope that after 3-4 months of good operation they will make an official outing. As a matter of fact I was not supposed to give you their name. [...] I am sure after 3-4 month they will put another CEO if the plant will go well, and that they will disclose themselves. Now NOT. There have been no way to obtain this. It is necessary we send them by the next week the agreement signed, otherwise they will go on without our plant: as a matter of fact, they do not need us. [...] Your Customers and investors can come when you want, under NDA, and they will see a plant in operation in the factory of a Customer which is anyway real, makes a real work in a real factory, really not owned by IH directly or indirectly, and will confront themselves with the director of the plant of JMC."
So Darden was informed about the fact that JMC was a newco created to represent a Customer who wanted to be unrevealed. I think that most of the objects that were in the JMC side of the Plant belonged to this Customer, who took them back at the end of the test. So there was no spoliation made by Rossi.
We now know with near certainty how Rossi defrauded IH: by circulating hot water and making it appear that it was steam.
As IHFB has said few pages ago, the state inspector has testified that he observed a steam leak, so I would not use the words "with near certainty".....
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I don't know much endothermic action you can get from a few grams of Pt sponge...
Pt sponge is used as a catalist in many reactions (e.g. methane formation) that are strongly endothermic.
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Apparently the insulated tubes inside the JM black container contained reactors with those catalysts.
A good list of reactions can be seen from this catalogue of JM:
