Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

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IMO, good chance Rossi had/has something small he exaggerates for profit. Unfortunately, if so, he is just the kind of selfish person who will take it to his grave, if he can not make millions off of it.

Absolute nonsense. Shane, you are endlessly gullible. If Rossi had anything, by now, someone would have picked it up, proved it, and properly evaluated it. It's been more than six f'n years since Rossi started bamboozling Lewan and even before that, he was blowing smoke up poor old ailing Focardi's ass. Rossi has no history of any accomplishment ever, except for crap he makes up and except from taking money from people under false principles. You think he just suddenly came up with the greatest invention of the millennium out of nothing except maybe a few pasta farts? Why? What real evidence do you have?

Of course Rossi was able to fool Focardi. It's not hard to fool a tired elderly and kindly man who doesn't suspect foul play and who, like you, wants it to be real so very badly.

Bob,

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1) As you mention, 10 years.... Rossi HAS been clouding the issue of
LENR research for a long time. It needs to stop. Some see him as
critically harming true research and it bothers them to see it continue
unabated. Thus they become involved. Want proof? Where are the blogs
discussing Cravens or Miles or Celani or other legitimate researchers?
None to the extent that Rossi / eCat gets! Even MFMP does not get much
traffic. Some see this as a true problem, thus the attempt to rectify it
by casting a clear light on Rossi.

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There is one simple reason that Cravens, Miles, Miley, and Celani don't get discussed very often: the performance of their technology, via many metrics, pales in comparison to the E-Cat. Rossi's the only researcher who has demonstrated (except for a few like Me356, Songsheng, and a few others that have replicated his systems) massive excess heat. If they had been able to produce such performance, I'm sure they would have gotten their fair share of attention. Now, you may possible (or not) be thinking, "Rossi has lied about the performance of his technology to obtain such attention." I don't think that is the case. His very early systems were capable of enormous performance as shown in demonstrations and early tests -- such as those witnessed by Focardi and the 18 hour test primarily conducted by Dr. Levi. As he moved on to reactors that could maintain stability (instead of running away to destruction) at higher temperatures, he made changes to his "recipe" and tried a variety of different designs. Cures of the Cobraf forum witnessed a significant portion of the evolution of the E-Cat from a low temperature only technology to one that could withstand higher temperatures. His statements also make me think that the tech worked.

I think the problem has been that Rossi really does have the Holy Grail of LENR, and he is trying desperately to hold onto total control of it for himself. So that has prevented him from giving more precise directions to replicators, prevented more open third party testing, and has resulted in the technology lingering in obscurity instead of being discussed regularly in the news. Then when Doral came about he let his paranoia and desperation for control lead to a very shady looking and less than optimally conducted test (at a minimum) even though there was probably some excess heat produced. At worse, although this has not been totally proven yet, he hired an actor (Bass), truthfully had no production whatsoever (JMP being a totally fake company), and schemed on many other issues. His alleged -- we need to see all the evidence first and not just a couple emails -- nefarious conduct at Doral is what really troubles me. His conduct before may have kept the E-Cat in relative obscurity but didn't directly injure the field. Conversely, what has happened with the one year test and the resulting lawsuit has grievously injured the LENR community.

As I've said before, the only good thing about the lawsuit is that perhaps, for once, Andrea Rossi (and IH) will have to show all their cards. For example, even if it doesn't exonerate him anywhere near completely for the ALLEGED fraudulent actions, he may be pushed into a corner where he tries to "pull a rabbit" with an amazing demo of the Quark or a third party replication that is truly high quality and irrefutable.

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2) To some it has become personal! I initially believed Rossi for a
couple of years. I told many friends about the upcoming sale of clean,
cold fusion power and sunk quite a bit of time following the story. Now I
have come to the strong conclusion that he IS a complete fraud and HAD
taken me in. It kind of pisses me off!
I would like to say that I really want to help others avoid my same
mistake, but if I'm really honest, it is probably as much that I want
the "truth known" to alleviate my frustration some! (Humans are a
vengeful lot are we not? ) In any case, it is true... some want what might be called justice.

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I have also told lots and lots of people about Rossi. I've told friends, family members, and even pastors of churches I have attended about Rossi. In McDonalds I've told total strangers about him. So his conduct during the Doral test does indeed irritate me. I'm not happy at all. However, I try to keep my mind focused on what's most important: his technology. I'm convinced it is indeed real. His behavior, attitudes, paranoia, style, and lack of sophistication obviously obscures its reality to many people. But I've been following this saga very, very closely since the start, and underneath everything I think there is an amazing technology. Even more interestingly, I'm not convinced that one reason why he has been so unique about his behavior (trying to be diplomatic) is because his technology is not really all that complex. Basically, 90% of his know how, I'm convinced, revolves around hydrogenation of the nickel. Me356 would agree with me, I think, that the vast majority of replicators don't understand how extremely challenging it can be to hydrogenate nickel (while simutaneously creating reaction sites) with H2 alone. Me356 mentioned atomic hydrogen sources -- somewhat enigmatically -- in a couple of his posts on this forum. Now, I'm convinced that Rossi's first and primary "catalyst" in his original patent (the mysterious figure six) was palladium probably in a powdered form serving as an atomic hydrogen source. What Rossi did from the start was to try and maximize hydrogen absorption by using high surface area nickel (carbonyl), use a reverse spillover catalyst (palladium), vary the pressure to hammer in the hydrogen instead of just one constant pressure, and so forth. I think Me356 realized the simplicity of the effect (once you achieve adequate hydrogenation) and went secretive, mimicking Rossi's paranoia.

So, simply, I'm angry, but I try not to let my frustration delude me about the reality of the technology (which has nothing to do with the Doral plant).

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3) Some Rossi supporters, DO cast insults and defame Tom Darden, IH and
others! Some, such as Mr. Weaver, are acknowledged friends of these
people. They may take it personally when "hidden behind alias, no
repercussions possible" posters throw these insults at will without
penalty. So they might make posts to defend or rectify those falsehoods!
You have to admit, some on "Planet Rossi" can be very derogatory as
well.

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I consider the term "Planet Rossi" as very offensive, because those who use it tend to lump all of Rossi's supporters into one group. Some of us don't like Rossi's behavior while we still think his technology worked -- again, not specifically the Doral plant. To me, the use of that term only antagonizes many people and encourages them to behave inappropriately. If Dewey Weaver, Jed, and Abd had not started using that term and being quite so harsh, I think they would have been better received.

Of course whether or not the term "Plant Rossi" was used or not, it does not excuse some of the extremely rude and hateful remarks that have been made by some of Andrea Rossi's supporters. They have been out of line just like Dewey, Jed, and Abd have been out of line sometimes -- in my opinion. And, to be honest, I've been out of line at times. I'm not going to go back and try to compare all the comments made to see which individuals were less harsh, but I do wish that we could have all made an effort to be more civil. The fact is even if someone does think Industrial Heat is pure black evil, there is a way for them to express their feelings and thoughts in a way that isn't going to spark a forum war. Also, I'd like to say that I wish more people would realize WE DON'T KNOW ENOUGH YET to really take 100% sides one way or the other. We have seen bits and pieces of evidence. I would say that we have probably only seed less than 1% of the evidence which will be revealed at the trial. After all that we'll be in a better position to form fully informed opinions. I have my own opinions, but I'm trying to be open to all new information that comes my way.

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4) Finally, some people are truly interested in and follow LENR
development. The eCat drama has turned into a fiasco. Why, if you come
to a forum to discuss or read about legitimate research, and 90% of what
you read is about "The Great Wizard of Roz", would you not want to pull
the curtain back? Really. It is similar to wanting to listen to
classical music in your office and the cubical next door is blasting
obscene rap lyrics. Would you not want to shut it down as well?

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I agree with that. I will say that it really turned into a soap opera when we learned IH and Rossi split up and the lawsuit was filed. This is a tragedy, and I'm irritated that things have gotten so bad. However, under all the accusations, negative remarks, deceptions, lies, and so forth is a very real technology, IMO. Whatever happens -- regardless if Rossi proves certain aspects of his case or, on the other hand, he loses everything -- the technology is what matters the most.

I hate rap music too, BTW. I particularly hate Mexican rap music. I have to hear it in my neighborhood far too often. But if I knew there was a rap competition next door and the money was going to some important charity, I'd at least try to tolerate it (probably by heading to McDonalds for a few hours). We can't let our disdain of this whole messed up situation make us lose sight there is a technology involved that could change the world. My hope is that the recent out break of illnesses, family emergencies, and financial crisis' in the replicator community ends so we can replicate the high powered Ni-H technology and spread the "recipe" far and wide.

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5) Ignorance : "lack of knowledge or information" Some Rossi detractors
see people being ignorant about Rossi. For some, there is the human
trait that urges them to remove ignorance. Perhaps it is an innate
desire to show ones' own knowledge. None the less, it is a reason some
post their opinions.

Yep. I was ignorant about how less than honest and manipulative Rossi can be at times. Now I am much more careful. But I'm making sure to differentiate the E-Cat technology as a whole from Andrea Rossi as a person. Some people are unwilling to do this. They like to point, "Look, Rossi lied about THIS so the entire E-Cat technology must be one giant fraud! He has lied about everything! And everyone around him has lied about everything!" To me that is awful, because it dismisses a very real technology -- in my opinion.

Quote from MrSelfSustain

very real technology -- in my opinion

Thanks Mr. SS,

I agree that harsh and defamatory language should not be used by either side. One can call it as he see's it and still be polite.

I must say, I do not know if to admire or question your faith in Rossi's technology as you put it. After seeing the same evidence, I no longer see any credible evidence that counters his long, long past of explicit fraud. Could he have something? I doubt that even he is "silly" enough to not commercialize it. If he has it, he could make $89 million dollars tomorrow and a huge percentage after that . (Both IH and Hydrofusion) But he does not. Why?

You seem to recognize Rossi's short comings, but choose to believe in his technology anyway. However, Tom Darden is the opposite. If you really look into his past history, you will find no significant short comings He has a very good reputation. He has done nothing in this drama but give Rossi plenty of opportunity to produce. (Of course if you believe "Rossi says" then your view will be different. But then how can you believe anything Rossi says?) Check on other resources about Tom Darden and not ECW!

Why do you seem to pass on Rossi's long history and current falsehoods and yet seem to state IH is "guilty" even though their past history would not indicate that?

I.E. Rossi is given a pass (I will believe in his technology), even though known guilty of lying, deception and detraction while IH is found guilty and not believable (they could find no excess heat, the plant did not work, there was no customer, etc. etc.) when their past record is relatively spotless.

I have to challenge you in that you have put different weights on your judgement scales! The standard you hold Rossi too is almost non-existent yet somehow you hold IH to a very strict judgement and based upon what? Rossi says? That is counter intuitive in my reasoning!

But hey, I can play the banjo (quite well I might add ) some people cannot understand why in the world I would do that! People do not think alike.

Bob,

First of all, I decided a long time ago to only consider his actions and behavior from the time he started working on the E-Cat (around 2007 I think). As I continue on in this life, I'm realizing that if we knew everything everyone in our lives had done at some point in their past, we wouldn't want to associate with anyone, period. I don't have the time nor inclination to research significantly before that.

To respond to another comment of yours, I think Rossi could potentially commercialize the Quark and/or other technologies. However, at some point, he'll have to give up some level of control over his technology. This is what he refuses to do. He is suffering from the same condition that Patterson and a long list of others have had. For example, for him to mass produce the Quark by the billions he'll have to partner up with someone because he does not have the funds to do so by himself. But I think if it would result in him having to give up any ownership of the technology, he'd rather let the technology die and never be used. That's why he won't do a demonstration for IH and make 89 million dollars. He views his technology as his own magnum opus and worth billions.

I believe that the E-Cat technology works for reasons that go beyond Andrea Rossi. There have been a number of replications that have been mentioned openly and others that have only been discussed quietly and confidentially. When it comes to Tom Darden, I have no interest in him. He's rich. So what. There are lots of rich people out there. Most importantly, he hasn't came up with a revolutionary breakthrough technology that could change the world -- like the E-Cat. You see, I have no interest in working for Tom Darden, I have no interest in his money, and I have no interest in anything he is working on. As of right now, I have my personal opinions and theories about his motivations for getting involved in LENR research, but they may shift and change depending upon the outcome of the trial. Also, if high powered replications start proliferating around the world, his reaction to them could significantly impact my opinion. But the truth is there is much more about him I don't know than I do know, and I really am not too interested -- unless he were to try and interfere with the rapid proliferation of LENR technology. I'm not saying he would, but I don't know. My hope is that he would be all for the rapid employment of LENR technology to crush and destroy all other forms of energy production -- including solar and other renewable.

When it comes to "Rossi says" I believe what Rossi says in general about the performance of the E-Cat. I believe this because of his own demos and tests, third party replications that have been made public, the work of replicators who have published openly, and some confidential test results I've heard about. I think if you can adequately hydrogenate nickel and create an adequate number of reaction sites you can create massive excess heat that is self sustaining. Now, when it comes to the nitty gritty details of every single test, I don't believe everything Rossi says. But I believe his statements about the E-Cat (again not specifically what happened in Doral) as a whole are true.

When did I say IH is guilty? Guilty of what? Dewey may be incorrect in saying that the E-Cat technology never worked, at all, and Rossi never had anything. But in regards to the current litigation, I've said repeatedly we need more information. If the whole Doral test was a blatant fraud -- even if the reactors did produce some excess heat after many of them failed -- then I don't think Rossi deserves the 89 million. Specifically, if it is flat out proven Rossi lied about Johnson Matthey to get the plant moved to Florida, lied about James A. Bass being anything more than an actor, lied about the nature of JM Products, lied about manufacturing, and so forth then he doesn't deserve the money. I don't know how the court would rule. My opinion is not law. But even if there was some excess heat but EVERYTHING ELSE WAS A TOTAL LIE (I'm not saying everything else was because we need to see all the evidence) then Rossi should not be rewarded. If his trickery constituted fraud -- which I do not know because I'm not a lawyer -- then perhaps there should be even further consequences. But even if Doral was a total and outright scam and Rossi loses the court case, that doesn't make the E-Cat technology as a whole unreal.

What standard do you think I hold IH too? Please be specific. I am willing to try and answer your questions, but I need you to phrase them in a more detailed manner.

I think the field is about to undergo a revolution when hopefully -- if some of the replicators can sort out their family, financial, and health issues -- some of the latest know how can be incorporated into their tests to make sure that the nickel is optimally hydrogenated. The kilowatt of power per gram of fuel may well become a standard or a minimum barrier of entry into the field.

Quote from MrSelfSustain

Please be specific.

Mr. SS,

IH has formally stated to the court in clear terms. They could not get the eCat to work period! Rossi worked with them for almost two years before Doral. They clearly stated that Rossi eCat technology did not work! This was before Doral.

Remember, they had a GPT test setup in NC. Rossi is the one who refused this plan and delayed and then setup the whole Doral drama as a sale of heat. Doral was a scam from the start!

You must not believe IH when they stated that the eCat never produced over unity in all their time with Rossi! Remember, at first many believed Lugano, but it has been proven unreliable. Even the testers will not support their conclusions. IH had every reason to make it succeed and they could not, from the beginning.

Stating the Rossi's technology works is stating that IH is lying or that Rossi NEVER gave them anything. In either case, the eCat never worked in IH's efforts. Who are you going to believe? IH, who had everything to win if it did work, or Rossi, who has continually lied his career? While people can change, you should not wipe his past clean. What he is doing now is identical to his past shenanigans. Look at the post of 56 charges against him!

For Rossi to have something, I believe one has to by default state IH is lying and Rossi is telling the truth.

But again only my opinion.

Quote from oldguy

you can't play a sad song

Mr. Oldguy,

It is true! Happiest instrument on earth and I have been smiling playing it for 40 years! (Darn, starting to tell my age here!)

For those who did not know Steve Martin played, check this song out that he wrote. He is accompanied by two of my influences, Bela Fleck and Tony Trischka. Be sure to check out Fleck at about 2:07!