Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

  • Quote

    IMO, good chance Rossi had/has something small he exaggerates for profit. Unfortunately, if so, he is just the kind of selfish person who will take it to his grave, if he can not make millions off of it.

    Absolute nonsense. Shane, you are endlessly gullible. If Rossi had anything, by now, someone would have picked it up, proved it, and properly evaluated it. It's been more than six f'n years since Rossi started bamboozling Lewan and even before that, he was blowing smoke up poor old ailing Focardi's ass. Rossi has no history of any accomplishment ever, except for crap he makes up and except from taking money from people under false principles. You think he just suddenly came up with the greatest invention of the millennium out of nothing except maybe a few pasta farts? Why? What real evidence do you have?

    Of course Rossi was able to fool Focardi. It's not hard to fool a tired elderly and kindly man who doesn't suspect foul play and who, like you, wants it to be real so very badly.

  • Bob,

    There is one simple reason that Cravens, Miles, Miley, and Celani don't get discussed very often: the performance of their technology, via many metrics, pales in comparison to the E-Cat. Rossi's the only researcher who has demonstrated (except for a few like Me356, Songsheng, and a few others that have replicated his systems) massive excess heat. If they had been able to produce such performance, I'm sure they would have gotten their fair share of attention. Now, you may possible (or not) be thinking, "Rossi has lied about the performance of his technology to obtain such attention." I don't think that is the case. His very early systems were capable of enormous performance as shown in demonstrations and early tests -- such as those witnessed by Focardi and the 18 hour test primarily conducted by Dr. Levi. As he moved on to reactors that could maintain stability (instead of running away to destruction) at higher temperatures, he made changes to his "recipe" and tried a variety of different designs. Cures of the Cobraf forum witnessed a significant portion of the evolution of the E-Cat from a low temperature only technology to one that could withstand higher temperatures. His statements also make me think that the tech worked.

    I think the problem has been that Rossi really does have the Holy Grail of LENR, and he is trying desperately to hold onto total control of it for himself. So that has prevented him from giving more precise directions to replicators, prevented more open third party testing, and has resulted in the technology lingering in obscurity instead of being discussed regularly in the news. Then when Doral came about he let his paranoia and desperation for control lead to a very shady looking and less than optimally conducted test (at a minimum) even though there was probably some excess heat produced. At worse, although this has not been totally proven yet, he hired an actor (Bass), truthfully had no production whatsoever (JMP being a totally fake company), and schemed on many other issues. His alleged -- we need to see all the evidence first and not just a couple emails -- nefarious conduct at Doral is what really troubles me. His conduct before may have kept the E-Cat in relative obscurity but didn't directly injure the field. Conversely, what has happened with the one year test and the resulting lawsuit has grievously injured the LENR community.

    As I've said before, the only good thing about the lawsuit is that perhaps, for once, Andrea Rossi (and IH) will have to show all their cards. For example, even if it doesn't exonerate him anywhere near completely for the ALLEGED fraudulent actions, he may be pushed into a corner where he tries to "pull a rabbit" with an amazing demo of the Quark or a third party replication that is truly high quality and irrefutable.

    I have also told lots and lots of people about Rossi. I've told friends, family members, and even pastors of churches I have attended about Rossi. In McDonalds I've told total strangers about him. So his conduct during the Doral test does indeed irritate me. I'm not happy at all. However, I try to keep my mind focused on what's most important: his technology. I'm convinced it is indeed real. His behavior, attitudes, paranoia, style, and lack of sophistication obviously obscures its reality to many people. But I've been following this saga very, very closely since the start, and underneath everything I think there is an amazing technology. Even more interestingly, I'm not convinced that one reason why he has been so unique about his behavior (trying to be diplomatic) is because his technology is not really all that complex. Basically, 90% of his know how, I'm convinced, revolves around hydrogenation of the nickel. Me356 would agree with me, I think, that the vast majority of replicators don't understand how extremely challenging it can be to hydrogenate nickel (while simutaneously creating reaction sites) with H2 alone. Me356 mentioned atomic hydrogen sources -- somewhat enigmatically -- in a couple of his posts on this forum. Now, I'm convinced that Rossi's first and primary "catalyst" in his original patent (the mysterious figure six) was palladium probably in a powdered form serving as an atomic hydrogen source. What Rossi did from the start was to try and maximize hydrogen absorption by using high surface area nickel (carbonyl), use a reverse spillover catalyst (palladium), vary the pressure to hammer in the hydrogen instead of just one constant pressure, and so forth. I think Me356 realized the simplicity of the effect (once you achieve adequate hydrogenation) and went secretive, mimicking Rossi's paranoia.

    So, simply, I'm angry, but I try not to let my frustration delude me about the reality of the technology (which has nothing to do with the Doral plant).

  • I consider the term "Planet Rossi" as very offensive, because those who use it tend to lump all of Rossi's supporters into one group. Some of us don't like Rossi's behavior while we still think his technology worked -- again, not specifically the Doral plant. To me, the use of that term only antagonizes many people and encourages them to behave inappropriately. If Dewey Weaver, Jed, and Abd had not started using that term and being quite so harsh, I think they would have been better received.

    Of course whether or not the term "Plant Rossi" was used or not, it does not excuse some of the extremely rude and hateful remarks that have been made by some of Andrea Rossi's supporters. They have been out of line just like Dewey, Jed, and Abd have been out of line sometimes -- in my opinion. And, to be honest, I've been out of line at times. I'm not going to go back and try to compare all the comments made to see which individuals were less harsh, but I do wish that we could have all made an effort to be more civil. The fact is even if someone does think Industrial Heat is pure black evil, there is a way for them to express their feelings and thoughts in a way that isn't going to spark a forum war. Also, I'd like to say that I wish more people would realize WE DON'T KNOW ENOUGH YET to really take 100% sides one way or the other. We have seen bits and pieces of evidence. I would say that we have probably only seed less than 1% of the evidence which will be revealed at the trial. After all that we'll be in a better position to form fully informed opinions. I have my own opinions, but I'm trying to be open to all new information that comes my way.

    I agree with that. I will say that it really turned into a soap opera when we learned IH and Rossi split up and the lawsuit was filed. This is a tragedy, and I'm irritated that things have gotten so bad. However, under all the accusations, negative remarks, deceptions, lies, and so forth is a very real technology, IMO. Whatever happens -- regardless if Rossi proves certain aspects of his case or, on the other hand, he loses everything -- the technology is what matters the most.

    I hate rap music too, BTW. I particularly hate Mexican rap music. I have to hear it in my neighborhood far too often. But if I knew there was a rap competition next door and the money was going to some important charity, I'd at least try to tolerate it (probably by heading to McDonalds for a few hours). We can't let our disdain of this whole messed up situation make us lose sight there is a technology involved that could change the world. My hope is that the recent out break of illnesses, family emergencies, and financial crisis' in the replicator community ends so we can replicate the high powered Ni-H technology and spread the "recipe" far and wide.


    5) Ignorance : "lack of knowledge or information" Some Rossi detractors
    see people being ignorant about Rossi. For some, there is the human
    trait that urges them to remove ignorance. Perhaps it is an innate
    desire to show ones' own knowledge. None the less, it is a reason some
    post their opinions.

    Yep. I was ignorant about how less than honest and manipulative Rossi can be at times. Now I am much more careful. But I'm making sure to differentiate the E-Cat technology as a whole from Andrea Rossi as a person. Some people are unwilling to do this. They like to point, "Look, Rossi lied about THIS so the entire E-Cat technology must be one giant fraud! He has lied about everything! And everyone around him has lied about everything!" To me that is awful, because it dismisses a very real technology -- in my opinion.

  • Quote

    Yep. I was ignorant about how less than honest and manipulative Rossi can be at times. Now I am much more careful. But I'm making sure to differentiate the E-Cat technology as a whole from Andrea Rossi as a person. Some people are unwilling to do this. They like to point, "Look, Rossi lied about THIS so the entire E-Cat technology must be one giant fraud! He has lied about everything! And everyone around him has lied about everything!"

    Much of the claimed positive evidence for Rossi's technology (as you have noted elsewhere) comes from those positive early demos. That Rossi is now proven to be both a liar and manipulative must surely decrease whatever confidence anyone might have had in their integrity. Personally I never had any confidence in them because they nearly all have known (obvious) reasons for false positives, and the others have plausible guesses for that. But were I more sanguine then a change in my view of Rossi would affect my view of those tests.

    The involvement of Levi and the Swedes does not provide extra validation. We know that they managed to overestimate COP X3 in Lugano even when they had control over everything, in Lugano, and plenty of time to discuss and cross-check! A badly documented test conducted by Levi on his own, for example, cannot therefore trusted. To hold these views you don't need to think Rossi lies about everything. Merely that he does what is needed to make his demos appear successful. You don't need to think the others around Rossi lie at all, merely to note that they are not good experimental physicists in this unusual area of "Rossi-related calorimetry". There is ample evidence of that.

  • very real technology -- in my opinion

    Thanks Mr. SS,

    I agree that harsh and defamatory language should not be used by either side. One can call it as he see's it and still be polite. :)

    I must say, I do not know if to admire or question your faith in Rossi's technology as you put it. After seeing the same evidence, I no longer see any credible evidence that counters his long, long past of explicit fraud. Could he have something? I doubt that even he is "silly" enough to not commercialize it. If he has it, he could make $89 million dollars tomorrow and a huge percentage after that . (Both IH and Hydrofusion) But he does not. Why?

    You seem to recognize Rossi's short comings, but choose to believe in his technology anyway. However, Tom Darden is the opposite. If you really look into his past history, you will find no significant short comings He has a very good reputation. He has done nothing in this drama but give Rossi plenty of opportunity to produce. (Of course if you believe "Rossi says" then your view will be different. But then how can you believe anything Rossi says?) Check on other resources about Tom Darden and not ECW!

    Why do you seem to pass on Rossi's long history and current falsehoods and yet seem to state IH is "guilty" even though their past history would not indicate that?

    I.E. Rossi is given a pass (I will believe in his technology), even though known guilty of lying, deception and detraction while IH is found guilty and not believable (they could find no excess heat, the plant did not work, there was no customer, etc. etc.) when their past record is relatively spotless.

    I have to challenge you in that you have put different weights on your judgement scales! The standard you hold Rossi too is almost non-existent yet somehow you hold IH to a very strict judgement and based upon what? Rossi says? That is counter intuitive in my reasoning!

    But hey, I can play the banjo (quite well I might add :thumbup:) some people cannot understand why in the world I would do that!:) People do not think alike.

  • Para as others have said you are doing the lords work. Can you make your legend on the graph larger? It is not readable. I have a feeling we will be depending on your work for some answers.

    Oh and today I learned TIL bob plays the banjo like a boss. Go bob!

    Edited once, last by Rigel ().

  • Since 10 years ...

    ... starting from 2007.

    Two years later in Rome (1):

    A few months ago, Dewey Weaver on L-F (2):


    I spoke with another of the US Navy researchers who were involved with the Rossi investigation years back. They reached the same conclusion as IH. Rossi's mysterious sale to the US military did not go to Navy and his test / demos did not work to the satisfaction of the most respected hard science scientist in the mix.

    Any connections?


    (2) Jed Rothwell on an Unpublished E-Cat Test Report that “Looks Like it Worked”

  • Bob,

    First of all, I decided a long time ago to only consider his actions and behavior from the time he started working on the E-Cat (around 2007 I think). As I continue on in this life, I'm realizing that if we knew everything everyone in our lives had done at some point in their past, we wouldn't want to associate with anyone, period. I don't have the time nor inclination to research significantly before that.

    To respond to another comment of yours, I think Rossi could potentially commercialize the Quark and/or other technologies. However, at some point, he'll have to give up some level of control over his technology. This is what he refuses to do. He is suffering from the same condition that Patterson and a long list of others have had. For example, for him to mass produce the Quark by the billions he'll have to partner up with someone because he does not have the funds to do so by himself. But I think if it would result in him having to give up any ownership of the technology, he'd rather let the technology die and never be used. That's why he won't do a demonstration for IH and make 89 million dollars. He views his technology as his own magnum opus and worth billions.

    I believe that the E-Cat technology works for reasons that go beyond Andrea Rossi. There have been a number of replications that have been mentioned openly and others that have only been discussed quietly and confidentially. When it comes to Tom Darden, I have no interest in him. He's rich. So what. There are lots of rich people out there. Most importantly, he hasn't came up with a revolutionary breakthrough technology that could change the world -- like the E-Cat. You see, I have no interest in working for Tom Darden, I have no interest in his money, and I have no interest in anything he is working on. As of right now, I have my personal opinions and theories about his motivations for getting involved in LENR research, but they may shift and change depending upon the outcome of the trial. Also, if high powered replications start proliferating around the world, his reaction to them could significantly impact my opinion. But the truth is there is much more about him I don't know than I do know, and I really am not too interested -- unless he were to try and interfere with the rapid proliferation of LENR technology. I'm not saying he would, but I don't know. My hope is that he would be all for the rapid employment of LENR technology to crush and destroy all other forms of energy production -- including solar and other renewable.

    When it comes to "Rossi says" I believe what Rossi says in general about the performance of the E-Cat. I believe this because of his own demos and tests, third party replications that have been made public, the work of replicators who have published openly, and some confidential test results I've heard about. I think if you can adequately hydrogenate nickel and create an adequate number of reaction sites you can create massive excess heat that is self sustaining. Now, when it comes to the nitty gritty details of every single test, I don't believe everything Rossi says. But I believe his statements about the E-Cat (again not specifically what happened in Doral) as a whole are true.

    When did I say IH is guilty? Guilty of what? Dewey may be incorrect in saying that the E-Cat technology never worked, at all, and Rossi never had anything. But in regards to the current litigation, I've said repeatedly we need more information. If the whole Doral test was a blatant fraud -- even if the reactors did produce some excess heat after many of them failed -- then I don't think Rossi deserves the 89 million. Specifically, if it is flat out proven Rossi lied about Johnson Matthey to get the plant moved to Florida, lied about James A. Bass being anything more than an actor, lied about the nature of JM Products, lied about manufacturing, and so forth then he doesn't deserve the money. I don't know how the court would rule. My opinion is not law. But even if there was some excess heat but EVERYTHING ELSE WAS A TOTAL LIE (I'm not saying everything else was because we need to see all the evidence) then Rossi should not be rewarded. If his trickery constituted fraud -- which I do not know because I'm not a lawyer -- then perhaps there should be even further consequences. But even if Doral was a total and outright scam and Rossi loses the court case, that doesn't make the E-Cat technology as a whole unreal.

    What standard do you think I hold IH too? Please be specific. I am willing to try and answer your questions, but I need you to phrase them in a more detailed manner.

  • IHFB,

    Things are a bit askew. You did not start this as a parody account from my remembering, is this correct? You were a fan of IH and that you supported the e-cat for a while. Then you are still a fan of IH and now you think now after all the evidence that the e-cat does not work. Is this correct? And you are proding Dewey to get inside information, is this correct?

    If this is correct then Dewey is just doing what Dewey has always done here. So then recognize he is an advocate for IH and the party line. He has been most honest about that.

    As your username indicates you like IH please verify Is this still correct? I ask since I will be heading down to the eclipse you can fly in and we of the "Cold Fusion Mark Twains Society" (a.k.a. pseudonyms) can take the R.V. caravan down to see him at the next conference. BTW, I am pretty sure I am real since my wife wants me to do stuff.

    /hmmm CFMTS

  • I thought early on that there was a possibility of Ni moderated LENR reactions due to CETI, Thermocore, the tritium from the Ni wires of Claytor, and so on. However after seeing videos of early Rossi demos I thought immediately that this guy was crazy. Him claiming that the small puff of steam was 1kW , the hose through the wall, the throwing people out that came with meters, and so on. Then when he jumped to 1MW heat in some manufacturing plant in Italy - I thought it all was a sham. If he really had COP 50 in FL then he could easily slap some thermoelectric generators on it and unplug it from the wall. And why jump to 1MW with all that phase change junk when a simple 1kW and water flow could be more convincing? You can easily control 1kW of heat and even have a secondary measure from cooling the flow.

    The 10's of W's by Celani's wires, the self sustaining samples of Cravens, the Nanor of Swartz are much more believable even at low powers..

    The problem with all this is that win or loose, Rossi has poisoned the field. If he wins, no one will want to support other researchers and development, and if he looses, then no investor will want to take the chance again. I have little hope that this will turn out for the good. The only bright hope is that IH hasn't totally thrown in the towel and walked away from all LENR research.

  • I think the field is about to undergo a revolution when hopefully -- if some of the replicators can sort out their family, financial, and health issues -- some of the latest know how can be incorporated into their tests to make sure that the nickel is optimally hydrogenated. The kilowatt of power per gram of fuel may well become a standard or a minimum barrier of entry into the field.

  • Please be specific.

    Mr. SS,

    IH has formally stated to the court in clear terms. They could not get the eCat to work period! Rossi worked with them for almost two years before Doral. They clearly stated that Rossi eCat technology did not work! This was before Doral.

    Remember, they had a GPT test setup in NC. Rossi is the one who refused this plan and delayed and then setup the whole Doral drama as a sale of heat. Doral was a scam from the start!

    You must not believe IH when they stated that the eCat never produced over unity in all their time with Rossi! Remember, at first many believed Lugano, but it has been proven unreliable. Even the testers will not support their conclusions. IH had every reason to make it succeed and they could not, from the beginning.

    Stating the Rossi's technology works is stating that IH is lying or that Rossi NEVER gave them anything. In either case, the eCat never worked in IH's efforts. Who are you going to believe? IH, who had everything to win if it did work, or Rossi, who has continually lied his career? While people can change, you should not wipe his past clean. What he is doing now is identical to his past shenanigans. Look at the post of 56 charges against him!

    For Rossi to have something, I believe one has to by default state IH is lying and Rossi is telling the truth.

    But again only my opinion.

  • you can't play a sad song

    Mr. Oldguy,

    It is true! Happiest instrument on earth and I have been smiling playing it for 40 years! (Darn, starting to tell my age here!)

    For those who did not know Steve Martin played, check this song out that he wrote. He is accompanied by two of my influences, Bela Fleck and Tony Trischka. Be sure to check out Fleck at about 2:07!

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  • Oldguy,

    I watched the original steam demo you refer to. That hose had zippo steam volume coming out of it. So I deferred to people that were scientists (followers of scientific method) then WOW KaPoW1

    After following OU scams for years I now find that according to Lugano scientists that Rossi had something, so I got hooked. But then the evil villain shakes tiny fist the DREADED Thomas Clarke report came out. This one report made me realize that my math was crap and I was awakened to not trust everything I read but to up my game. Well the rest plays out here, and I am not sure why others do not seem to agree with the numbers. So maybe Cravens has something but Nanor is noise. I hope that Holmlid does but to me IMHO NiH has played out without some breakthrough. I am also sorry if I ever non-intentionally insult someone with different beliefs here.

    1 reference Batman 1960's

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