Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

  • Abd in his latest blog post has a good point: "gauge pressure does not accurately tell us the boiling point of water." (real quote)


    As a reminder, the following quote from the test plan implies that Penon at least initially chose a probe reporting absolute pressure.:


    "Probe for steam pressure measurement PX 309—100A5V"

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2016…nt-test-plan-fabio-penon/



    If we add Abd's insight to that, it does seem logical not to choose to measure gauge pressure if you are trying to show whether water is above its boiling point or not.


    Can we assume Penon made the best choice? At least we know he did initially, and I don't see why he would switch to a worse option afterwards.


    A conversion from gauge pressure to absolute on the fly also wouldn't make sense - imagine removing 14.69 psi or 1.01 bar from your measured value. That's just weird.



    The ERV data that we have seen so far doesn't specify gauge or absolute; it just says "steam pressure(bar)".


    Murray in exhibit 5 says "the steam pressure was reported (for the entire period) to be 0 kpaG"


    Note that the unit here is kpa and not bar as in the report. Also this seems to come from an earlier report, probably after 9 months as implied below in the same part of exhibit 5:


    "

    According to the data you have reported, the conserved mass flow rate of the system from February to November 2015 was on

    average 33,558 kg/day (1398 kg/h) and the temperature of the water and steam were on average 68.7o C and 102.8o C, respectively."



    So, the 3rd quarter report either explicitly say "0kpaG" or did it say "0 bar" as the final report does? We don't know.


    Did Murray make an assumption about the pressure being gauge? This is possible, because 0 absolute would be a such a prespoterous value.



    We know from the test protocol that

    "

    During the 350 days of operation, the ERV will visits to the plant with a frequency approximately four months"


    So Penon wasn't the one writing results down daily. Which means it is possible that whoever was writing results down (Rossi?) could have though he had to report "0 barG" when the actual value was 0 bar abs. Since someone else was doing Penon's work of writing down values, it is possible that they weren't questioning why the pressure was always at 0.



    The pressure transducer chosen by Penon reports a voltage of 0 to 5V depending on the absolute pressure value. 0V for 0 psi, 5V for 100 psi. http://www.omega.com/Pressure/pdf/PX309-100mv.pdf


    Note that maximum operating temperature is 85C. I'm not sure how the transducer would be affected by higher temperatures.



    Putting all of this together, I believe at this point that the most likely hypothesis is that the pressure transducer was not working at all and therefore reporting a value of "0V ~ 0 bar abs" the entire time. Rossi maybe thought this meant 1 atm and was satisfied. Murray didn't consider that possibility and therefore assumed 1 atm as well (or maybe the report said 0kpaG somewhere). Penon was only there once every 4 months, why would we expect him to care or pay attention to such details?


    If true, it means that the whole test is inconclusive and Rossi supposedly spent 16 hours/day in his shipping container for nothing.


    Rossi seems happy not questioning a COP of 100 when he had much lower COPs initially. Could he also be deceiving himself? The optimistic part of me wants to believe that maybe he does have a COP of 1<x<10 but somehow got led to believe that he had a COP=100 because of a poor test setup.


    Of course IH questioned a COP that was >10 times more what was expected. That's a red flag in itself.

    • Official Post

    Getting 10 or 100Mn$ for this claimed technology looks small, but in fact it should have been very smart and fair.

    Rossi, if all was like he said, was needing money to develop and industrialize his product. It seems he was not yet able to show it (that part is stange and my intuition raise another possibility) to a public.


    Alone, Rossi could not develope and exploit his technology at it's real potential.

    So, he asked to an investor to give him the cash he needed, in exchange of half the world potential of this technology...

    Once he have the cash, the investor is half trillionaire, Rossi is half trillionaire...

    None of the two parts have any rational incentive to be a traitor, as it endanger their half trillion benefit.


    "half of my kingdom for a horse..."


    the trade is good, provided E-cat is real.


    Maybe I forgot a point.

  • Let's assume that the water was only partly steamed, that the flow was not measured properly, but that the measured temperatures were approximately correct.


    It takes 125J to heat 1g of water by 30 degrees C. Thats 0.0347 wh.


    Supplied energy is around 250,000 wh/d.


    Therefore, to have a COP~1, we have to circulate 250,000/0.0347 = 7,204,610 g ~ 7,200 kg of water per day, heating it from 69.9C to 99.9C.


    What kind of error can we get if the pipe leading to the flowmeter was not full?

  • Jed,

    to you quote: "was shown in the photo here"


    Could you provide a link to the picture of the tank?

    • Official Post

    Even given your ifs, it is absolutely not in IH's favour, which is why no other VC would touch it.


    I know what a stickler you are for proof, THH, how do you know no-other VC would touch it? Have they all contacted you to say so? IH may have been first to the table and most interested, but to say 'no one else would touch it' seems like an assertion that is actually unproven and unprovable.

  • The pipe going from the Rossi reactor to the heat exchanger in the customer site is full. The heat exchanger produces back pressure, which keeps the pipe full, and also prevents the water from boiling. The water leaving the heat exchange at a lower temperature is in a gravity return pipe. That pipe is half empty. It goes into a large plastic tank, which was shown in a photo posted here. As you see in the photo, the tank is not airtight and not pressurized. Therefore, the pipe going into it has to be gravity return.



    Jed are you sure the plastic tank was used in Doral. I havn't found any pictures from Doral with the tank. Only in pictures from Italy like the one you posted in october.



    Here is the photo of a tank that I referred to, at Ecat World. This could be in Italy, but I gather they brought everything to Florida:


    468d332ad7bcceab7eff992a323920071d2e218e2eec6e836e350191cd32df36.jpg

    • Official Post

    Are you absolutely sure that the water meter on the skinny pipe in the photo above is anything to do with the circulation system? I suspect that the 2 large pipes on the left are for that. My guess is that the meter on the right is connected to the mains water supply used to fill up the system. Otherwise filling it would be cumbersome. As Rossi was a sub-tenant in Ferrara the persons responsible for paying the water-bill may have insisted he pay his share.

  • I think we can assume that some heat was produced - not sure about excess heat, but I guess it would have been too obvious if no heat was produced at all. So I am still wondering what happened to this heat.

    That it was used by the mysterious customer to cook Platinium sponge does not sound very reasonable, beside other issues Platinium sponge is an expensive material, so should we not expect armed security in and around the Doral location?

    1MW of heat is quite a lot, if really that much was produced. Even if less heat was produced it would still be hard to get rid of it, especially without someone noticing.

    So I have two theories what happened:

    1) On customer side a generator was used to convert some of the heat back to electricity, which was then used again to heat some water on Rossi side. Perhaps this could explain some of the data we have seen. Would also explain why Rossi was hiding the customer side from everyone.

    2) Cold tap water was used on the customer side to cool the steam, the water was then flushed down the drain. I think so far we have only seen bills for electricity from FLP, no indication of the amount of water that was used in Doral.

    • Official Post

    Nice ideas, but a fail I'm afraid.


    1. Let us assume a steam-powered generator (or indeed any conceivably usable kind of generator) was used to generate electricity which was then used to make more heat.


    This fails because, 'you still got a lotta heat' and it's all in the building. To lose some energy you would have to back-feed electricity into the grid.


    2. Using tap-water in a condenser would result in (a) a mega water bill and (b) a lot of hot water hitting the drains. Discharging hot water in bulk is actually against the rules, and also the manholes all around would be steaming. My covert snoop actually checked the drains at Doral (he was an EPA guy so thinks of stuff like that) and found no evidence of abnormal flow or hot water at all.

  • Quote

    it would have been too obvious if no heat was produced at all

    Too obvious for who or what? It was totally obvious that 1 MW wasn't produced - demonstrated by the fact that the building is still standing and those who visited are still alive. Were 60 kW produced? Occam's razor says no. People who doubt that probably also believe that the magician at their kids birthday really and truly COULD produce mice out of thin air if he really wanted to - but prefers to perform lame tricks with rabbits and hats because mice aren't impressive enough.

  • Peter - I am sorry that this is so difficult for you. You had an amazing career under very difficult circumstances and I will forever respect you for your accomplishments and ability to survive under an oppressive system.


    Having said that, I cannot help but wonder why you do not presently recall that Rossi led you and others around by the nose with the "ERV" report expectations during the entire 1 year test. It is looking like he decided upon the litigation route well in advance of the lawsuit date yet he still hyped the ERV expectations which everyone on Planet Rossi lapped up like a hungry dog. He led you on, misled you and did not produce this document (still apparently sacred to Planet Rossi somehow) yet you attempt to excoriate me for a diagram of the plant? What drives this kind of thought?


    For the record, St Andre' was Rossi's jewelry company that made rings from the enormous bounty of gold that he claims came from his industrial gold and silver reclamation business. He was so successful that he had tons of gold left over from that process and that led to further escapades that are very indicative of this man's career. Please try a little harder to get your head around that one if you can as It is relevant.

  • Dear Dewey,


    I regret this conflict, however if I have an opinion and I do not get reasons, solid proofs than I do not change it.

    The problem is wth the plausibility of the IH narrative and the focus on Rossi' character and bad deeds not with the technology per se. You will see my answer to Abd who has called me dysfunctional, incoherent suffering ffrom senile dementia and other niceties I am not very sensitive so I answered him nicely but the technical part is intreresting. Please answer me, in private if you wish because dialog with that technology illiterate is futile. See the case of the steam pipe.

    I was not interested in Rossi's jewelry, the Chemical institute Cluj where I workedfrom 1980 to 1991 had an say industrial activity of recovering noble metals from spent catalysts, solver from photo film so I know how this goes. But I do not think that this activity of Rossi is helping or retarding he re;ase or not of Excess heat from the ECats. Rossi seems to have tried many things, so had I. But it is a St Andrew jewelry company in the US these days.

    Prlez moi de technology.. surely I will not write a book about Rossi's titanic personalty.


    peter

  • Peter - with all due respect, you now need to ponder how much more of your time and energy you want to invest into a technology focus around a man with an almost 40 year career of failure including criminal convictions, prison time, self-proclaimed lies, massive ecological damage to a large region of Italy, repeat patterns of patents, self-publications, failed demonstrations, duped investors / funding sources including Govt agencies? If you truly care about LENR then know that a brighter day is coming - save your reputation and blog while you still can - move on.

  • @Dewey


    Perhaps you should reconsider your approach. All of your character-based arguments against Rossi have been considered and mulled over many times by the LENR community, long before you started in on them. Why don't you confirm that there was a single steam outlet pipe of type DN40, or otherwise correct that statement with this community and the court? Jed says the flow meter was improperly installed. Why doesn't IH provide some photographic evidence of that?


    If you can prove one of these, you would be well on your way of convincing those who have been critical of you and your tactics. We don't want B.S.--we want evidence. That is what will persuade us.

  • Dear Dewey,

    OK, but this was not about the 1MW plnt technology directly.

    and was true say 18 months ago. What you say is about a 4

    years partner of know you whom.

    The plant has worked for 352 days with the man above described inside and no news came about fatal problems.

    IDEA wouldn't be healthy a period of silence re this subject and refocusing on LENR basics?

    I am losing time, what can you win realistically with this dispute?

    peter