Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

Quote from Dewey Weaver

The experts in this case haven't spoken yet and will have their official say.

Let's hope the expert isn't Bill Nye the science guy. Our ostensibly most informed scientists are woefully uninformed about LENR. Even our ostensible LENR scientists are mostly anti-NiH. So yeah, you have a point, there are few expert witnesses who would back Rossi's claims, and most will vehemently oppose them. That doesn't make Rossi's claims wrong.

I look forward to learning what was on the other side of the wall.
There must be some reports from the inspectors somewhere.
My guess is still nothing but a fan and radiator.

Quote from Dewey Weaver

The experts in this case haven't spoken yet and will have their official say.

@Dewey Weaver: Sorry, you sound like an expert, with your in-depth explanation of legal matters ...

PS: I don't like either side. But financing a bunch of layers is the most deepest deception I can imagine. Business can be a real enlightenment sometimes...

I prefer the science side!

Quote from Shane D.

Good news though, in that there may be some truth to the Ecat

Nevertheless, IH led you and the world to believe that there was nothing this whole time. They purposely attempted to damage the LENR+ NiH movement, and those involved with it. They haven't been square with you or anyone else. I'm not saying Rossi has either. It is a dog-eat-dog world. Let this case proceed to its conclusion. I see no reason for either side to want to settle at this point.

Quote from IH Fanboy

IH led you and the world to believe that there was nothing this whole time. They purposely attempted to damage the LENR+ NiH movement, and those involved with it

I don't think that is right at all. They did not say there was nothing. In fact they paid thinking that there was something there and acknowledged that they did. They just did not say that the Rossi units were not ready for commercialization, either in time or in COP levels, nor characterized by transferable IP as Rossi claimed.

I do not believe IH "purposely attempted to damage LENR" as you claim. After all they still are supporting some researchers in the area. It is Rossi that has damaged the field with claims of mega watts, saying he would fully transfer his IP and his claims of large values of COP then suing the people that would have supported commercialization. He could have been much more open without giving away his claimed "secrets" and he could have be much more scientific in his actions.

You have to wonder why Penon has not come forward to openly support Rossi but remains in hiding. That speaks volumes.

Doc. 113 now on the docket. Seems Fabiani resides in Russia and will not be present to attend a scheduled mediation. Somewhere I had gotten the impression that he was in Florida.

Quote from oldguy

They did not say there was nothing.

They said there was nothing in the 1-year test. Earlier tests are ambiguous, as readers here know.

I think Exhibit 5 clearly says there was nothing. Or if there was something, the instruments and methods were so bad it was impossible to detect heat with any confidence.

You can seldom absolutely rule out any possibility of excess heat. Something might be lurking in the margin of error.

You sure can rule out 1 MW with Rossi's 1-year test reactor! Could there be 10 kW of excess heat? I doubt it, but there were so many problems with the equipment and methods, based on Rossi's data alone I cannot rule that out. I believe I.H. conducted additional testing that did rule this out. I do not know the details. It would not be difficult to get better results with better instruments.

Quote from oldguy

They did not say there was nothing.

In a sense you are right, but only in a narrow sense. They didn't say there was nothing at the beginning. Indeed, they acted like there was, in both public and private, based on what we all know. It wasn't until late in the game (and probably some influence by some PR folks) that they crafted a narrative that was damaging to Rossi, and all NiH researchers and replicators. They took the wind out of the movement. And they likely knew that they would based on their pronouncements. While they probably weighted the risk in doing this, they did it anyway. And from the time of their filing, they have consistently given the impression that there is nothing. Go back and read their answer and counter-complaint. It is all there. And we all know it is there. No escaping words on paper filed in a court proceeding.

What is very clear to me is that people and organizations are willing to bend the truth when it comes to a world-changing technology if it serves their purposes. What is not clear to me is whether IH has revealed their highest COP based on their replications of Rossi's reactor. The under-oath statement by their "engineer" is very protective--evasive even. I'm relatively certain that we have a smidgen of the facts at this point.

Quote from IH Fanboy

It wasn't until late in the game (and probably some influence by some PR folks) that they crafted a narrative that was damaging to Rossi, and all NiH researchers and replicators.

No, it was early in the game. Soon after the 1-year test got started, they told me and several other people they were unhappy with the test, for some of the reasons described in Exhibit 5. They did not reveal much detail, but it was clear that Rossi was up to his old tricks. He was doing a sloppy experiment with inadequate instruments that proved nothing. They hoped he would straighten up and do it right, but alas he did not. I certainly hoped he would do the right thing. I heard nothing for months, so I thought the problems might be fixed.

You have no business disputing me, or inventing a timetable to fit you imaginary version of events. I know what I learned and when I learned it. Let me repeat, what you just said DID NOT HAPPEN. You need to stop making things up. Or, if you heard that from Rossi, you need to realize that he often lies.

Quote from IH Fanboy

that they crafted a narrative that was damaging to Rossi, and all NiH researchers and replicators.

I view it just the opposite. They hoped that Rossi had things but it was Rossi that would not produce a good system reliable system within the time promised did not transfer the IP so it could be commercialized as he promised. It was Rossi that did nothing but things for himself and did not care what his attack on IH would do to the field caring only about money.

IH only defended itself against Rossi's attacks while he was saying that IH did not have or could not get the money, that they were the delay when it was Rossi that failed to show others how to make the systems work in NC. IH supported others and found people that were willing to invest but Rossi just poisoned the well.

IH wanted the technology to succeed and supported other people in the field while Rossi cared only for himself and sued IH even before the deadline of the payment was due. There is absolutely no valid reasoning that would indicate IH did not want to commercialize and profit from truly working device.

@Jed

I'm not making it up. As late as September 27, 2015 (seven months into the year-long test), Darden was making positive public statements about Rossi. I'm not disputing that you had contact with IH during the one year test, nor that they communicated information to you. What I state above is based on the public record--both in the present proceedings, and by other public statements.

Quote from IH Fanboy

As late as September 27, 2015 (seven months into the year-long test), Darden was making positive public statements about Rossi.

I would not call those "positive public statements." More like damning with faint praise. He says they spent $10 million but they are still "not certain." That sounds like a big problem to me. If I were examining a device that produces 1 MW of heat with only 20 kW of input, I would be certain that is true after an hour. That does not take $10 million and a campaign to "crush the tests." Frankly, what he described sounds like a disaster to me. I don't mean by reading between the lines. Taken at face value, knowing what Rossi was saying on his blog when this happened, you can see this was a disaster in the making. Darden was putting a brave face on it, but the facts he revealed spoke for themselves.

Rossi himself said late in the test, "we still don't know if it is working" or if it is acceptable to the customer (I.H.). Again, that's incredible nonsense. There is no chance a legitimate test of a 1 MW reactor with 20 kW input could be anything other than definitive. That's like watching a helicopter take off and go up to 10,000 feet. No one would dispute that it is flying.

Darden's other statements are reasonable, but in retrospect, they were largely incorrect:

Quote

A group of Swedish scientists tested the technology, and they got good results. A number of other people say they are also getting positive results but these haven’t been confirmed. A Russian scientist, for example claims to have replicated Rossi’s work in Switzerland and got excess heat.

Quote from IH Fanboy

I'm not making it up. As late as September 27, 2015 (seven months into the year-long test), Darden was making positive public statements about Rossi.

In the source you just referenced , Darden says this:

Quote

But let me make one thing very clear. We don’t know for sure yet whether it [Rossi's technology] will be commercially feasible. We’ve invested more than $10 million so far in Rossi’s and other LENR technology and we’ll spend substantially more than that before we know for certain because we want to crush all the tests. (Recently, we have been joined by Woodford Investment Management in the U.K., which has made a much larger investment into our international LENR activities—so we are well funded.)

Cold fusion has such a checkered past and is so filled with hypesters and people with a gold rush, get-rich-quick mentality. We need to be calm, prudent and not exaggerate. I don’t want to say that cold fusion is real until we can absolutely prove it in ten different ways and then persuade our worst critics to join our camp.

emphasis mine.

And the date you mention actually states "Updated: Sep 27, 2015 12:00 PM EDT". We don't know when the body of this was written, but I think it is likely that the parenthetical note about Woodford may have been the update. Even what he says is reserved, and that could well have been written many months prior.

Not exactly an emphatically positive report, in my mind. But you obviously have it out for Darden, so I don't imagine this will change your opinion of Darden or other IH associates. You say 'I'm not making it up", and I believe you really believe that. But that doesn't make it so.

[Edit: didn't see Jed's response until after I posted, making this post a bit redundant]

Reasonable minds can different on what is a positive public statement or not, but I consider these to be almost glowing statements about Rossi from Darden, taken from the interview linked to above.

Q: So you’re optimistic?

A:
Yes, In fact, Rossi was awarded an important U.S. patent recently,
which is part of what we licensed, covering the use of nickel, platinum
or palladium powders, as well as other components, in his heat-producing
device. This is one of very few LENR-related patents to date.
...

Q:
So you licensed the technology of Andrea Rossi, an Italian scientist
and entrepreneur who’s been having some success with cold fusion.

A:
That’s right. Rossi's was one of the first investments we made. We’ve
been seeing the creation of isotopes and energy releases at relatively
low temperatures—1,000 degrees centigrade, which could be a sign that
fusion has occurred. We have sponsored tests and more research for
Rossi’s work.
...

So, when I state that IH crafted a different narrative late in the game, that was hostile toward Rossi and Leonardo, it has backing by the public record.

Interesting that Fulvio moved to Russia after the counter-suit was filed... Including moving USQL (United States Quantum Leap) there...

Guess he doesn't want to be around when repercussions hit.