Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    their own conjecture that certain equipment could create a slight vacuum

    IHFB,

    conjecture that could...

    I can conjecture that I can travel back in time if I go fast enough! There "could possibly" be a real customer in the Doral facility if one believes hard enough!


    Look at the total evidence. There was NO customer and there was NO production! Even the utility bills now show there was little power left over from what Rossi himself reported the 1mw plant used. There was no process "pulling a slight vacuum". JMP did not have any employees, no money. The accountant was Johnson's relative. There was no parent company. Why do people still "dream" that there was a customer?


    Because they want the eCat to be real so bad, they will invent anything to give hope that it is! :(


    I hear you state that you want Rossi and IH both to come clean, but I do not see you posting hard questions to Rossi supporters. I do not see you raising hard questions about the multitude of Rossi falsehoods and misdirections, yet you hammer Mr. Weaver and Mr. Rothwell on non-sequitors. It appears that you are more interested in "proving Rothwell wrong" more so than "proving Rossi right". Ask yourself, has this become some personal vendetta?


    I for one, shake my head when I read "there COULD be ...... " from planet Rossi. Except for the known evidence all points pretty clearly to "there is not".

    Quote

    I for one, shake my head when I read "there COULD be ...... " from planet Rossi.

    Well he's right. There really could be "a slight vacuum" and if the steam is (or would be) condensed immediately when exiting the pipe, there could even be more than a slight vacuum. But even if it would be a fully blown vacuum like in "space vacuum" it would still amount to a pressure difference of just 100 kPa (which isn't enough - not even slightly).

    Edited once, last by Jami ().

    Quote from Bob

    I I do not see you raising hard questions about the multitude of Rossi falsehoods and misdirections. . .


    That is because most here don't fawn over Rossi like they do over IH, Jed, and Dewey. You say that I hammer them with non-sequiturs. But look at what they do: they taunt with names such as Planet Rossi, liar, hater, or the like. I wonder who has lost confidence in their own arguments?


    Listen, I recognize Rossi is capable of misdirection. The evidence bears that out. I've taken him to task many times on this forum, notwithstanding your comment to the contrary. But so does IH. In some ways IH's misdirection (and that of its surrogates) is more nefarious, because it is more subtle, and missed by many. Whenever I see inconsistencies in their positions, I call them out. Some call it a polemic. I call it straight up. You may not like it. And others who already made up their minds on the Rossi/IH affair may not like it either, because it might make them re-analyze their position, but so be it. I certainly have just as much a right to make my points as you or any other here. And since I'm not the one hurling insults, I would argue that I am even more justified.

    Here is a thought I just had. I don't know if it is inappropriate or not. Maybe it's out of line. I'm tired, sleepy, and I'm just going to let it out.


    If Andrea Rossi is a total fraudster and never had anything that worked -- what Dewey Weaver claims in a specific post not that long ago -- and LENR Forums is infested with "Planet Rossites" that are brain dead and "true believers" why does the IH crowd even bother to post here with such vigor? I mean, according to Dewey's tone, I get the feeling the lawsuit is almost a trivial thing because they have the evidence ten times over to nail Andrea Rossi and take him down, sunset him, end his career, put him out of business, and so forth. Going by what Dewey claims -- the absolute worst case scenario for the E-Cat tech as a whole and the mess at Doral -- everyone involved wtih Rossi's test at the Doral plant is going to be legally smeared. Literally, my impression from reading his posts is that they are confident their evidence is beyond massive and Rossi has none worth showing: his case is a total joke with no merit whatsoever that will be crystal clear in no time flat.


    Furthermore, whatever happens on this forums shouldn't really matter to IH. They've got Darden's massive personal fortune, his connections that are worth additional billions of dollars, their own high tech laboratory, professional qualified staff, and hook ups with the most powerful organizations in the world. A few totally duped sycophants blathering away on an obscure forum somewhere can't have the smallest impact on their plans. For goodness sakes, they've got tons of IP now, are probably working to aquire more as we speak, and have the money to out spend GOD HIMSELF on LENR research -- or at least after Darden made a few phone calls to arrange the cash flow. The small number of visitors and meager traffic LENR Forums obtains would be meaningless to the massive waves of traffic they could obtain.


    The misguided and ill informed discussions on this forum shouldn't matter, thinking about the situation from the above perspective. Regardless of anything we say or think on here, with no extraordinary effort Industrial Heat can just destroy Rossi at the trial, take everything he has, have the court seize his business assets so his condos and apartments can all be liquidated, and put him out on the street or pursue the case further and have him breaking heavy stones with a sledgehammer. Then they can laugh us down as we grovel in sorrow for ever thinking Rossi produced a single milli-watt of heat while bringing their super-sophisticated Miley tech to the marketplace in a manner that protects all their other investments -- optimizing the foundation for their trillion dollar energy empire. LENR Forums will dwindle in traffic, Barty would eventually shut it down, and the millions of people interested in the GOD EMPEROR of LENR, Tom Darden, can go to Industrial Heat's bright and shiney new website that's being flashed fifteen times a day on Fox News and CNN.


    I just don't get the importance of coming to this forum unless it is just to get us ready for eventually having our noses collectively rubbed in the smelly fecal matter and the E-Cat's litter box. If that happens, we were wrong. If Rossi's technology is proven to have never produced a single watt of excess heat (maybe IH has some juicy emails from Focardi and Rossi describing how much fun they were having deceiving everyone while they stuffed jet fuel in the early E-Cats) then we were stupid morons to have believed him. Maybe IH will convince the court to actually exhume Focardi's body from the grave so he can be deposed as well? Perhaps they can re-sunset Focardi and all of Andrea Rossi's previous associates who participated in the early days of his scam but have already departed from this Earth. But for now, until or unless the worst case scenario that has been presented to us is proven to be completely true, I'd rather have a little less hostility and negativity until the trial presents us with our own shortcomings as human beings, exposing our inadequacy as even calling ourselves homo sapiens.


    Until I see all the evidence in an organized format and not just a few pieces scattered about, I'm not considering Doral as a "total 100% scam" or the E-Cat technology as a lengthy 10 year long total hoax, at least not yet. If I was stupid to hold out for this long, then I already have a pet feline (literally the four legged kind) with a litter box I can dunk my head into repeatedly. I don't see pure uprightness from any side in this legal conflict. All I see is a lot of badmouthing and accusations (from both sides) with pieces of evidence that don't tell the whole story and much more evidence being withheld -- even if it is due to legal formalities. While, at the same time, the results of Songsheng, Parkhomov, other Russian teams, and Me356 tell me that the effect is real. The 18 hour test in Bologna tells me the effect is real. The demonstrations I've read about that took place before the JONP ever went up tell me the effect is real. The off the record replications I've heard about tell me the effect is real. Maybe all of this will be meaningless and Rossi's alleged "evil" will warp reality, erasing the reality of the technology resulting in the past ten years being one long delusion for several of us. But for now, until we know one way or the other, I'm not supporting the hostility and name calling -- even though I'm not totally innocent of it myself.


    Although I've been caught up in this thread and the debates about Doral just like many others on this forum, I realize that if we had spent a fraction of the time focusing on replication we could have achieved something that could make the court case more or less meaningless in the big picture of the LENR revolution. With a guaranteed to work formula producing 1000 watts per gram, the technology would take a life of its own. Instead of two companies fighting in court, there would be hundreds or thousands utilizing the technology around the world.


    Now would be a good time for Me356 to drop by.

    People seem to “cherry pick” the info from the final report (assuming it was Penon’s). Either the pressure of 0 bar absolute is correct, or the pressure reading is wrong. If the pressure gauge is wrong then nothing is can be calculated. If you assume Penon did measure 0 bars absolute of pressure then I would like to someone explain how much velocity the steam at 0 bar of pressure would have to be to account for the assumed flow. If it really was 0 bars of steam in the tube then it seems it would have required a phenomenal rate of flow. And why didn’t it come to 1 bar on down days when it should have gone to atmospheric.


    Even if you grant that it might be just below the gauge reading level of about 0,1 bars, then the steam at 0,1 bar only has a density of 0,01kg/m^3 That means a terrific volume of steam had to be moved (velocity dependent on pipe diam.) It seems impossible. The data screams that it is wrong.


    It seems more likely that the gauge or wiring was totally incorrect. That leaves us with not knowing at all the pressure. That is, it could be anything. As it has been pointed out, a pressure over 1 atm. would raise the bp of the water. It would only take a pressure of 1,2 bars to raise the bp to 104,8C. That puts a big question mark on the power out levels.

    I would say that we just do not know what the pressure was since it cannot be what was claimed in the report and thus all the output figures are in question.

    Then there are the questions of flow rates and what the temperature of the input water was (not at some unknown position in an external holding tank).

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    I get really worked up by comments like that from IHFB ...


    I'm sorry if you get worked up by my comments. Certainly not my intention.


    Quote

    I find this type of argument particularly despicable because it is wholly polemic . . .

    IHFB made a big deal of cherry-picked (by Rossi in an Answer) court evidence saying that one test (or set of tests on given system) showed COP = 1.3.



    Well, it was a stark contradiction, was it not? And to say that a COP of 1.3 is immeasurable is not true. Many within the LENR community are credibly measuring COPs of 1.1 - 1.3 (and more). SRI recently publicly announced that they are credibly measuring COPs of 1.45 using an NiH device. These are measurable values. Now, Dameron hemmed and hawed a little during his deposition when talking about the COP. Some interpreted that to mean he was uncertain about the 1.3 value, and that it was probably less. Another interpretation is that he was being evasive. His language appears evasive to me, and I think IH have probably measured COPs that are more, although probably with their "own" improved IH-cat (for which Dewey always side-steps questions about).


    And what does the very first numbered paragraph in IH's 4th amended answer state?

    "Defendants deny that the energy catalyzer (“E-Cat”) technology “generates a low energy nuclear reaction resulting in an exothermic release of energy” along the lines claimed by Plaintiffs – which is that a reactor using the E-Cat technology produces more than 50 times the energy it consumes. . . . Indeed, using the E-Cat technology Plaintiffs directly provided them, Industrial Heat and IPH have been unable to produce any measurable excess energy."

    Let's unpack this statement. First off, they adamantly deny that the E-Cat produces more than 50 times the energy it consumes. Okay then, what about 49? And how can they even make such a hard and fast statement without knowing what is on the other side of the wall? They probably are basing their conclusion from the 0.0 pressure value, which has been thoroughly discussed here, and is really IH's best and last hope. But that conclusion requires a speculative assumption (unless IH knows the kind of equipment on the receiving end). Now, if IH does know what was hooked up on the other end, then perhaps they should state that (but they don't). Jed claims that you need a perfect vacuum. It has been pointed out elsewhere, however, that even with a small 2 or 3 inch pipe, only a few psi of vacuum would be necessary to move 1 MW of steam, and that some industrial heat exchangers operate in just such a manner.


    So, now on to the weasel words. In 1954, Dwight D. Eisenhower took the French to task for using "weasel words" when promising independence. IH uses them throughout their court filings. I've bolded a couple of them above. They refer to technology "directly provided" by Plaintiffs (Rossi), or "using the E-Cat technology," and the like. What they are not telling you, and the probable reason that they are using such weasel words, is because they have probably developed their own improved IH-cat by tweaking a few things. Which provides a motive not to pay Rossi, because they probably now consider it "theirs" anyway. I can not think of any other reason that they so carefully use these weasel words, and why Dewey so carefully side-steps my questions about IH's improved NiH systems.

    Quote

    It has been pointed out elsewhere, however, that even with a small 2 or 3 inch pipe, only a few psi of vacuum would be necessary to move 1 MW of steam, and that some industrial heat exchangers operate in just such a manner.

    That is why it is pointless to discuss stuff like that with people like you. We're talking about facts here - not opinions. You just lack the ability or willingness to learn them. It is lazy and careless to write trumpanian nonsense starting with "it has been pointed out elsewhere" - as if you couldn't be bothered to pick up a calculator yourself.

    IHF - there you go again representing things in a strange way.


    There is nothing in Darden's recent interview or in Dewey's posts (that I find) that indicate "improved NI H systems" being a part of their "other efforts". The interview only references that IH is supporting LENR research, They could be based on things other than Ni, say Pd or Ti for example. Perhaps the half dozen or so researchers they are supporting is NiH, perhaps not.


    You seem to be still in the mode of IH's only focus is somehow reliant on Rossi alone or modifications based on that. There are Ni systems that were in play long before Rossi and there is work on things other than Ni H.

    @oldguy


    Well, it is known that IH are investors in Brillouin. So there is at least one other. And Dewey has mentioned in the past that IH has its own facilities and engineers. I think it is reasonable to suspect that IH are working on improved NiH systems, and probably improved IH-cat devices. Is it speculative? Yes. Probable? Yes.

    @IHFB,

    I think Dewey is on here for is own reasons. Not to confirm what IH may or not be doing. Unless it fits the narrative.


    I try to see it from his point of view, he believes the E-cat does not work and more than that Rossi is a fraud. The question that I would like him to answer is if he personally (not IH) but if Dewey is surprised that Rossi sued to enforce the contract. After all it does seem possible that Rossi could have taken the money and retired.


    Quote

    Well, [Dameron saying COP=1.3 had been measured, and IH saying no measurable excess energy] was a stark contradiction, was it not?


    As I explained in detail in the post you are replying to, this is not a stark contradiction. Unfortunately you have deleted the meat of my post from your quote, so the casual reader might not realise that. Note the contrast, I do readers the courtesy of quoting your entire post. This is one habit of yours that I find deceptive.


    Quote

    And to say that a COP of 1.3 is immeasurable is not true. Many within the LENR community are credibly measuring COPs of 1.1 - 1.3 (and more). SRI recently publicly announced that they are credibly measuring COPs of 1.45 using an NiH device.

    this is a non sequitur, which I find deceptive (but maybe you do not understand the point). I never said a COP of 1.3 is immeasurable. Merely that it would not imply excess heat without knowing the errors in the calorimetry. This is not idle speculation. TC estimated (and this was broad brush, no guarantee errors are not larger) the errors in Lugano-type calorimetry - even after the bad Levi theoretical error is corrected - to be +/- 30% or so. We have no context to this quote hence cannot know what the statement about COP=1.3 means. I'd be willing to bet it was an answer to something like "What is the highest COP you have ever measured in a Rossi device". In that context COP is an experimental result. linking this to real excess heat (and hence IH's overall statement) requires one to know what are the errors in that experiment, how credible was it, etc, etc.


    Quote

    First off, they adamantly deny that the E-Cat produces more than 50 times the energy it consumes. Okay then, what about 49? And how can they even make such a hard and fast statement without knowing what is on the other side of the wall?


    Surely you can see that they are taking a benchmark large figure - clearly lower than the ERV claim, and clearly larger than what is possible given their knowledge of the setup. IH have indicated the arguments they might use to substantiate this in Court - all they need to do at this stage. Given just a tiny bit more information about the setup we could deduce this ourselves. (They may also have chosen 50 because it is a limiting value given in Rossi's documents - I vaguely remember it might be that). How do you expect them to make the point that the ERV claims are clearly wrong in the legally safest way?



    Quote

    They refer to technology "directly provided" by Plaintiffs (Rossi), or "using the E-Cat technology," and the like. What they are not telling you, and the probable reason that they are using such weasel words, is because they have probably developed their own improved IH-cat by tweaking a few things.


    There is a non-speculative reason for those words (see the long quote above for more context). They need to make the point that IP has not been transferred. The most extreme and obvious form of this is that the devices directly provided by Rossi don't work.


    Your reason is entirely speculative, and probable to you because you believe that Rossi's technology works. Not only is there no evidence of that, there is plenty evidence (no positive credible amateur replication after large crowd-sourced effort, IH unwilling to announce positive results when if they did so they would receive funding which makes $100M look like peanuts) that it is improbable.


    Quote

    I can not think of any other reason that they so carefully use these weasel words, and why Dewey so carefully side-steps my questions about IH's improved NiH systems.


    I've answered the weasel word matter. Dewey's caution is necessary (if he knows anything positive), and obvious. Suppose he had information of some positive results from IH-funded experiments. It would be highly unwise to say anything about this until the results had been very carefully checked and validated. LENR reserchers above all know the perils of premature public announcements. And IH have personally (with Rossi and Lugano) had a taste of how two experiments claiming commercial levels of energy generation backed by 6 apparently independent academics can turn out wrong. How cautious would that make you?


    If OTOH Dewey does not know anything positive there is no way he is going to make negative comments and trash all those hard-working researchers funded by IH. In reality I doubt he can know. As IH have recently said, some of their initial interesting opportunities have turned out obviously unproductive, but about half remain and are highly interesting. That is the type of good, positive, but not false statement that you would expect them to make.


    Dewey might want to comment, but I expect has been firmly told he is not allowed to say anything about IH's current investments other than paraphrasing the PRs, for obvious reasons.


    Quote

    EDIT: here is Dewey on the recent results, confirming that he has to be cautious (and BTW there are legal reasons about this as well as PR ones)


    Bob - Thank you for understanding that I am unable to comment on details but I did like Tom's quotes from the interview. I can confirm that we are encouraged by the progress we are seeing.

    • Official Post
    Quote from oldguy

    People seem to “cherry pick” the info from the final report


    OG,


    And most likely what they are cherry picking is falsified data too! Or at best, so unreliable -considering Rossi's history of lying, Penon's hiding out in Italy, and Fabiani's decision to leave Miami for Russia and now only available via skype, as to be totally meaningless. Yet here we sit with everyone weighing in on it. :)


    If LF, with it's high IQ participants, are this confused over a simple "final report", one can only imagine what the average juror will think when this goes to trial. IH may have their hands full, as they have to prove the 1MW did not work, and in order to do that they will necessarily have to introduce a level of complexity the average juror will struggle to comprehend, While all Rossi has to say is..."here is the data, Penon is a nuclear engineer, it works, so where is my $89 million".

    Quote from MrSelfSustain

    as a lengthy 10 year long total hoax,

    Mr. SS,


    I understand your point to some extent. Why, if it is all fake, does anyone "bother"? After all for instance, I do not believe in BigFoot, so do I go to "BigFoot" forums and try to convince them of the "fallacy"? No I do not. Why do I on this site then? So what is the difference?


    A few here, in my opinion..


    1) As you mention, 10 years.... Rossi HAS been clouding the issue of LENR research for a long time. It needs to stop. Some see him as critically harming true research and it bothers them to see it continue unabated. Thus they become involved. Want proof? Where are the blogs discussing Cravens or Miles or Celani or other legitimate researchers? None to the extent that Rossi / eCat gets! Even MFMP does not get much traffic. Some see this as a true problem, thus the attempt to rectify it by casting a clear light on Rossi.


    2) To some it has become personal! I initially believed Rossi for a couple of years. I told many friends about the upcoming sale of clean, cold fusion power and sunk quite a bit of time following the story. Now I have come to the strong conclusion that he IS a complete fraud and HAD taken me in. It kind of pisses me off! :rolleyes: I would like to say that I really want to help others avoid my same mistake, but if I'm really honest, it is probably as much that I want the "truth known" to alleviate my frustration some! (Humans are a vengeful lot are we not? ;)) In any case, it is true... some want what might be called justice.


    3) Some Rossi supporters, DO cast insults and defame Tom Darden, IH and others! Some, such as Mr. Weaver, are acknowledged friends of these people. They may take it personally when "hidden behind alias, no repercussions possible" posters throw these insults at will without penalty. So they might make posts to defend or rectify those falsehoods! You have to admit, some on "Planet Rossi" can be very derogatory as well.


    4) Finally, some people are truly interested in and follow LENR development. The eCat drama has turned into a fiasco. Why, if you come to a forum to discuss or read about legitimate research, and 90% of what you read is about "The Great Wizard of Roz", would you not want to pull the curtain back? Really. It is similar to wanting to listen to classical music in your office and the cubical next door is blasting obscene rap lyrics. Would you not want to shut it down as well?


    5) Ignorance : "lack of knowledge or information" Some Rossi detractors see people being ignorant about Rossi. For some, there is the human trait that urges them to remove ignorance. Perhaps it is an innate desire to show ones' own knowledge. None the less, it is a reason some post their opinions.


    I do not expect to see those that believe in spite of the facts to stop posting positive "what ifs" .... I do not expect those that do not believe to stop dismantling them. I for one wish the trial were tomorrow so it could be over with!X/

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    @Dewey,


    So IH is not an investor in Brillouin? IH does not have its own facilities and engineers? These are all things you have confirmed in the past.

    You seem to think that things cannot change. Perhaps facilities and engineers come and go as does the support for various researchers. Darden has already said that IH had supported a dozen (I take that as a "ballpark" figure) but has narrowed it down to half that. Perhaps IH invested in Brillouin at one time but not right now but perhaps again in the future. You seem to be trying to pick a fight based on your own forced reading of things.

    • Official Post

    Well said Bob. I did the same thing too when I got the Rossi bug. Went around telling everyone. Gosh, no telling what they think of me now, so yes, it does make it personal when you finally realize you were just another useful idiot for the guy. Oh man, how embarrassing.


    There still are a few things about him that intrigue me though. His early history working elbow to elbow with Focardi for one. Hard to fool someone that wrote the book on NiH LENR. Focardi did not let just anyone into his confidence, so Rossi must have had something that really impressed him. Another are the many accounts of how engineered his 1MW is/was. "Engineer" made a number of posts about that before he disappeared. AS also pointed out something recently about an RF generator I believe. Why did Rossi bother with all that, when he could have done the scam without all the extra work?


    IMO, good chance Rossi had/has something small he exaggerates for profit. Unfortunately, if so, he is just the kind of selfish person who will take it to his grave, if he can not make millions off of it.

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