Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

    • Official Post
    Quote from sigmoidal

    both delusional and a con man.


    Not saying who I was talking about (IH,Rossi, someone else, me) , yesterday I had a talk with a "serious guy" interested in this domain, and he told me he had experienced similar profiles of "liar who believes his lies"... He told me they were "the worst of all".


    It is hard for me to understand this profile.

    • I understand the liar which lie and defraud consciously by selling fake unicorn manure from a hidden donkey... it seems (at least short term&risky) rational. Maddof seems of that kind, thinking he was smart enough to escape troubles forever.
    • I understand the delusional guy who sincerely believes he have a pink invisible unicorn in his garden. The kind who get ruined but never cheat. Some crazy inventors and scientists are of that kind.
    • There is even rational delusion as described by groupthink theory of motivated reasoning by Benabou (Patterns of Denial), where people avoid facing their failure, supporting each-others delusion, punishing doubters, following the boss delusion because nobody can escape (think the employees/contractants in that affair).
    • But it seems there is a strange kind of people, who can sincerely believe in their lies, and consciously defraud... like the guy who consciously sell his donkey manure, but believes in unicorns.

    Is there scientific resources, literature about that?


    I've heard of "clivage" theory, but it is psychoanalysis...

    Benabou's "Patterns of Denial" describes case like Enron CEO who both committed clear fraud to hide their failure but since the beginning and forever believed in their superiority to "make it works"...

    Classic Planet Rossi - those boyz are having a difficult week. And no - I have no alias postings outside of nckhawk which has been idle since getting banished from ECW. I like truth - its easy to tell the same way every time.

    D.R. Depo is somebody who will not come to the US for his deposition (wonder why?). Site inspection did not happen yesterday.

    AlainCo Yes, "delusional + convincing con-man + liar" is tough for us to understand. A bit easier when you realise that our idea of overarching single consciousness is itself an illusion - we all work as many bits patched together and don't necessarily have an internal model of what these bits are or which is driving us at any given time. It makes coherence - except at a superficial level - not the default outcome. Mostly the demands of operating socially in the real world prevent obvious weirdnesses, but not always!


    It makes sense of Rossi's known behaviour.


    There would be related philosophical stuff about consciousness (Dennet etc)


    And related psychoanalytic stuff (pathological narcissim) touched on using different language by many people - maybe Kernberg is best intro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_F._Kernberg?)


    Regards,

    THH

    • Official Post

    I went through the docs a little more carefully, since our resident expert Sigmoidal is on the road. These are the highlights of what I thought significant:


    Rossi threatened with sanction:


    "Plaintiffs and Defendants shall meet and confer to determine whether documents
    requested by Defendants (specifically, testing data) has not been produced by Plaintiffs.
    Plaintiffs' counsel must remind Plaintiff Dr. Rossi that to the extent that Plaintiffs intentionally fail to provide testing data, Dr. Rossi will be sanctioned by the Court."


    Rossi and his internet aliases:

    "Such responses shall include all screen names or aliases Plaintiff Rossi uses to post information on the lnternet. To the extent Plaintiffs shall serve their supplemental interrogatory answers to Defendant, John Plaintiff Rossi does not use screen names or aliases to post information on the lnternet, he must issue a response verifying the same"


    Our Dewey again: :)

    "WITH RESPECT to determining whether communications involving Dewey Weaver,
    If needed, Defendants shall reply on or by February 24, 2017 Paul M orris, and Deep River Ventures are protected by the attorney-client privilege:
    * Defendants must provide the Court with all communications for which
    Defendants declare the privilege applies for in cam era review. The Court warns that Defendants and their counsel may be sandioned if the Court determines that ninety-five (95) percent of the documents reflect business discussions and not legal discussions.
    WITH RESPECT to Defendants production of documents:
    Defendants must produce the final agreement between Defendants and Dewey
    Weaver, Paul Morris, and Deep River Ventures."


    Deposition Schedule:

    -Fabiani to be deposed 28 Feb via video
    -IH to depose Boeing Company 28 Feb
    -JMP to be deposed 1 March
    -Domenican Republic witness set for deposition today (22 Feb)


    Doral visit by IH's expert:


    "ORDERED AND ADJUDGED that if the defendant’s expert is available after the
    conclusion of the deposition in this matter taking place today locally, the site inspection
    shall occur today after the conclusion of that local deposition. If the defendant’s expert
    is not available to inspect the site today after the conclusion of the local deposition in
    this matter, unless the parties agree otherwise, the site inspection shall occur on March 2 at 0900 EST. Note: Dewey says site visit did not take place, so that means it will be on 2 March."


    Fabiani's answers and affirmative defenses (doc 148):


    Nothing really new here, other than he is now claiming to be a foreign national not living in Florida, therefore IH has no "personal jurisdiction" over him. Also claims that "Plaintiff has failed to adequately allege jurisdictional facts that bring Fabiani under the jurisdiction of the court". Other than that, the rest looks about the same to me...he downplays his role as minor, hired by IH only to help Rossi develop the Ecat. Says IH owes him 1 months salary. Stands by Rossi as to IH never intending to pay.


    Doc 150 in whole:


    "PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that there will be a hearing before the Honorable Magistrate
    Judge John O’Sullivan at C. Clyde Atkins U.S. Courthouse, 301 North Miami Avenue, 5th Floor,
    Miami, FL 33128, on Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 3:00 p.m., on (1) Plaintiffs’ and ThirdParty
    Defendants’ J.M. Products Inc.’s objections to Defendants’ subpoenas to Bank of America,
    N.A., BankUnited, Inc., and TD Bank, N.A.; (2) Plaintiffs’ violation of the Protective Order
    entered by this Court on October 14, 2016; and (3) Plaintiff Andrea Rossi’s failure to respond to Industrial Heat and IPH International B.V’s Third Request for Production."

    Quote from oldguy

    now who is this D.R. Depo in the Dominican Republic?

    If I were a betting man, I would bet Penon. However, I would not bet much! :)


    Mr. Weaver may have given a clue when he stated the person in question would not come to the U.S. But this could be for various reasons as well, other than just "I am afraid they will throw my butt in jail!" :huh:


    Now why would Rossi not provide the test data? :/ hmmmm.... would it not prove his case? He is being warned by the court of sanctions and he is not producing the test data! This is very, very telling for sure! (I just am not sure what it is telling me though! ||)


    Also, IH has 3 times requested information from Rossi and he is not answering! He is putting his case is serious jeopardy! :whistling:

    Quote from Shane D.

    I went through the docs a little more carefully...

    There is one more document:
    151 - MEMORANDUM in Opposition re138 MOTION for Protective Order by Andrea Rossi


    Rossi fights for access to about 388 communications which the defendants treated as client-attorney privileged ones.

    Rossi refused to give test data? That says a lot. I would love to hear some Planet Rossi ideas of why that would be. The only reason I can think of is that it be bad for his case. If it was good for his case it seems that he would gladly produce the data for the court.


    Likely the same reason that Rossi quickly removed a lot of the "evidence" (parts and pieces) when the" test" was over. I have often wondered if Rossi "stole" some of IH's parts and equipment at the end of the "test". What is left at the site but the IH's shipping container and their equipment?

    • Official Post
    Quote from oldguy

    Rossi refused to give test data? That says a lot. I would love to hear some Planet Rossi ideas of why that would be. The only reason I can think of is that it be bad for his case. If it was good for his case it seems that he would gladly produce the data for the court.


    Are we to assume that this means data above and beyond that contained in the ERV reports?

    there was not much data in the "erv report". It appeared to be a daily review and not data as it was collected. For example, the tank temperature should have been taken many times in the day. If the flow meter had a transmitter then it should have sent info many times in the day. If it was manually read, then we would need to see the time the data was taken. and so on. IH has said Rossi removed a lot of that instrumentation but you would think that the original data file would have the raw data.


    Notice Rossi has not claimed the data does not exist, he just refused to supply it to IH and the court.

    Quote from sigmoidal

    My explanation is that Rossi is both delusional and a con man.


    Thanks for your opinion, but it seems to me that these two definitions are a little bit in contradiction each other.


    In any case, I don't think any of them fits well with his role in the Ecat affairs. Rossi is essentially and above all an exceptional PR man, and this ability of him was easily recognizable by the people who got in touch with him. The only thing they could have reasonably expected from him is some great PR coups, or the carrying on of an autonomous prop activity, it's very hard to believe that they could expect from him the invention of a prodigious method capable to subvert the accepted laws of the nuclear physics. So, in my view, it's much more probable that this attitude of him provides the best explanation for the whole decennial Ecat saga, up to including, maybe, this strange litigation.


    But this last specific aspect of the saga is out of my interests.

    Hi, Bob,

    Quote from Bob

    Two words - "preemptive strike". [...] I find it very logical that Rossi understood that IH had found out about the fraud and also that the 10.5 million payment was likely based on fraudulent activity as well. He assumed IH was going to sue him for recovery of that 10.5 million.


    Thank you for your explanation. It seems to me a quite weird way to prevent a suing. The best would have been a confidential trade-off. It's easier to interpret it in the frame of some PR or prop move. Anyway, I'm not really interested in this dispute, it's a private affair between two parties. And the court will decide on that.


    My main interest, as an Italian citizen, is to best understand how is it possible that several professors and researchers paid by the Italian taxpayers, whose duty is to search, affirm, and defend the scientific truth, could have supported for so long the Ecat activity, providing all its public credibility.


    I think this is the real problem for all of us, independently from where we live. How is it possible that the academics are so easily prone to support such energetic mirages? Which are the consequences of such support on the public opinion and on the choices made by the economic and political decision makers?


    In my opinion, what happened in the Ecat affair, and in particular in the first tests held in 2011, could shed some light on these important aspects.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Ascoli65

    My main interest, as an Italian citizen, is to best understand how is it possible that several professors and researchers paid by the Italian taxpayers, whose duty is to search, affirm, and defend the scientific truth, could have supported for so long the Ecat activity, providing all its public credibility.

    My main concern as an EU citizen (for a little longer anyway) is that not nearly enough academic effort and public money is spent on LENR. The record of Italian academia in this regard is pretty good, But when the military can spend billions of Euros on weapons we dare not use, a bit of pocket change spent on researching a technology that - just might- save our collective sorry arses and help to preserve the planet we live on and are planning to leave to future generations is money well spent.

    I cannot think but that Plaintiffs' attorneys are tearing their hair out at the moment. Surely they must be advising Rossi that if he cannot or will not produce documents ordered by the court to support his case, it could severely prejudice any chance he might have of winning.


    Sure, they want the fees, but they are obliged to keep the client(s) informed as to the likely results of any of the clients' actions or inactions.

    Thanks for your comment, Alan.


    Let's me start replying from the end.

    Quote from Alan Smith

    But when the military can spend billions of Euros on weapons we dare not use, a bit of pocket change spent on researching a technology that - just might- save our collective sorry arses and help to preserve the planet we live on and are planning to leave to future generations is money well spent.


    No objections on these words. I agree with you. But my sentence was more general: independently from whichever technology he is researching, an academic, or a public researcher, has the absolute and mandatory obligation to respect the basic rules of the scientific research. First, it's not allowed to deliberately publish wrong data and results. Second, when some wrong data or results are inadvertently published, or divulged, or supported in any way, the duty is to retract and correct these statements as soon as it is realized they were wrong.


    In the case of the first tests on the Ecat held in Bologna at the beginning of 2011, these rules have been not respected. The consequences are that, not only you cannot trust the results of those tests, but you cannot trust anymore what has been, and will be, said by those people.


    Quote


    The record of Italian academia in this regard is pretty good,


    Not for sure for the Italians. The outcome of the Italian academia in the CF/LENR field is an absolute disaster. It has been among the firsts in the world to follow the wave of F&P, but, after nearly 28 years of official researches carried out in the major scientific institutions, what is the result? Nothing!


    And when you ask yourself how it is possible that these researches have been funded for such a long time, despite the absence of any concrete results, you can't avoid to find a straightforward answer to your question in the way the data of the 2011 Bologna test have been manipulated.


    Quote


    My main concern as an EU citizen (for a little longer anyway) is that not nearly enough academic effort and public money is spent on LENR.


    Anyway the above problem it's not only Italian, it could affect the worldwide scientific community, and hence all the citizens of this Planet. Consider what has been denounced last month by Krivit (1) for what concerns the energy balance of the large tokamaks. The energy gain of ITER has been sold to the public opinion and to the decision makers as being greater than 10, but some information he got from insider people show that the foreseen energy gain is actually less than one.


    We know, ITER is not the Ecat, but apparently they suffer from the same illness, and the big suspect is that the pathogenic agents can be found within the same ambient, and we have no medicine to cure it.


    (1) http://news.newenergytimes.net…1/12/the-selling-of-iter/

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