Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    I think maybe what Alan was referring to (correct me if I'm wrong Alan) is the fact that the judge denied the motion to seal, thereby opening up the alleged misdeeds for all to see.


    Except that Rossi was the one requesting the seal, and that got denied. So I don't see how that can be interpreted as 'wrist slapping' of IH?


    So please (anyone) correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can see, there are potentially three 'incriminating' pieces of evidence against IH from this filing:


    1) Darden has an email dated 2016-02-23 sent to Uzi Sha that simply gives the addresses of: Fabiani, Rossi, Penon, JMP. (It does not provide Levi or anyone else's info).


    2) Dewey Weaver wrote an email to Bo Hoistad on 2017-02-17 with the 'incriminating' lines emphasized with underline (by Rossi's lawyers):

    Quote

    Mats also stated that the Uppsala team had no plans to revisit the Lugano report or discuss the increasingly controversial results from that test.
    ...We have also learned that the reactor was painted with an off-white high temp paint and that information is not accurately reflected in the Lugano report as well. 
    ... More information will be coming out about this in the coming months and I wanted to give you and your team a heads-up regarding any possible impact this may have on the University and / or the involved scientist.


    3) We also have the UNSWORN declaration (NOT affidavit) of Levi (contrary to IHFB's incorrect characterization of 'sworn' - though he does 'declare' in the end, this does not hold legal weight as is, I believe), that says: "It is my personal belief that Mr. [Uzi] Sha was offering to pay me in order to recant my support for the results contained in the Lugano Report." and in summary "As a result of this telephone conversation and the previous conversations... I feel harassed, threatened and coerced into doing something that I do not wish to do."


    There you have it - proof positive that "The Defendants and their agents repeatedly harassed, and attempted to bribe the Professors [Note the plural]" (as asserted in 167).


    Except that:


    There is no evidence (yet) that Darden communicated with Uzi Sha about anything, other than that he provided the contact addresses of Rossi's team - not Levi or anyone else.


    There certainly is no bribery or 'coercion' in Dewey Weaver's email to Hoistad. According to Rossi's lawyers, the really bad stuff Dewey sent to Hoistad involves characterizing Rossi's Lugano results as "increasingly controversial" and providing a heads-up that more information will be coming about the 'painted reactor'.


    The statement by Levi describes how he 'felt' and 'understood' Sha's intentions. Note that Levi does not state that Sha actually said he would give him X money, or that giving him money was specifically contingent on 'recanting' Lugano.


    And finally, this is all about Lugano, not about Raleigh, Doral, any 'GPT' etc.


    My sense is that the best Rossi can hope for is to get the Judge to look at additional emails from Darden to the Israeli lawyer Zalli Jaffe to see if there is anything incriminating in them. If there is, Rossi might score some points. If not, then I think the chances that IH is sanctioned based on this evidence is essentially zero.


    That said, I don't see why Dewey thought this was an appropriate time to send that email to Hoisted.


    And this Uzi Sha guy does seem a little creepy, so if it turns out that there is evidence that Darden 'incentivized' Sha to contact Levi, that would indicate sleaze on Darden's part. (With emphasis on the 'if'.)



    sigmoidal,


    Yes I think you have it. It's all a bit of a stretch and given what we know there is is no harassment, bribery, coercion etc. But it does seem to indicate that Levi is tied at the hip with Rossi, no?


    On the other hand, and I'm no lawyer, once the case started, it probably was a mistake for Dewey Weaver to contact potential witnesses outside of the discovery process. The possibility of what the plaintiffs are claiming is one reason why.


    I can't wait till June 26th when the trial starts.

    • Official Post

    sIG,


    Thanks for the good summation. Somehow though after reading it all, I get the impression Rossi, his lawyers, and maybe some here, feel the Lugano profs were off limits to IH. That Rossi, and Rossi alone had/has the sole right to communicate and work with them.


    However that is not the case, as IH was invested in the Lugano Hotcat, and the outcome, every bit as much as Rossi was. Both parties acknowledge the Lugano reactor was built at IH's facilities. Darden even worried that they had put it together perhaps too quickly before shipping it off to Lugano. Darden also mentioned that they wanted to have it tested there in NC, but Rossi did not want the profs having to fly back and forth.


    Being that this was a joint venture, IH had every right to contact, email, show-up on their doorstep of the profs, or whatever to discuss with them their Lugano results, methodology, clear up this or that, or even to inform them of any new developments like Dewey did. They signed onto testing in the first place, and part of their responsibility then would include answering questions as needed. Even uncomfortable ones. Of course, we know they refused from the get-go to answer any questions, choosing instead to bury their heads in the sand.


    So sorry, I have little sympathy that they felt pressured when Dewey advised them that Lugano was "increasingly controversial". It was always so, and they knew it...what cry babies.

    I am not clear as to why people think that "the professors" should have been considered potential witnesses to activities in Fl. It seems all they could offer is "hearsay" evidence. I have not hear anything that says they has any first hand information about Doral at the time of contact.


    ---unless perhaps the pinball payoff is considered.

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    I was waiting for a true IH believer to defend the indefensible.


    I'll infer that there is at least some tongue-in-cheek in your response. ;)


    So there now is at least some hope for IH detractors to find some dirt on IH, but only if specific connections to Sha come to light or some new evidence that we have not seen emerges. Weaver's email seems ill-advised to me, but hardly rises to 'bribery, intimidation, harassment, or coercion'.


    But this same filing, to me, provides some quite positive insight into Darden. As IHFB conceded, he's far more informed and involved in the research than I anticipated, and what I find to be an appropriate level of skepticism and simultaneous patience and willingness to risk a lot of money to get to the bottom of things.


    The summary that he wrote in 2014 (Document 167-02, Exhibit 1) was very impressive and informative.


    On the other hand, I think that this filing adds further evidence that Rossi is delusional. He seems to earnestly have the capacity to believe he is 'Nobel Prize-worthy' despite his many provable deceits (HydroFusion 'masterpiece', JMP is related to Johnson Mathey, JMP is 'independent' or Rossi/Leonardo, etc.). He also seems to have paranoid tendencies (shutting out Murray, instabilities noted by Darden).


    I can see why Rossi was hoping to have this under court seal.


    My hope is that they are moving on and performing new tests with systems they have designed. If they can produce rock solid results -- hopefully self sustained operation like Songsheng achieved -- with their own fuel and reactor, the results will hold ten times the significance of any previous E-Cat test. This will especially be true if they run a series of tests, figure out the key parameters that allow excess heat production, and share the know how in any report they may release -- if they are performing such testing. This could trigger an avalanche of replications by third parties around the world.

    • Official Post
    Quote from PeterMetz

    If I read Darden's status email correctly both Rossi and Fiabini were to be present for the 3rd so called 'independent' test (Lugano) the entire time with the other professors showing up on occasion. This is getting to be too much.


    Peter,


    Good point. It was not spelled out that way in the Lugano report authored by Levi either. He was very clear that this was independent in the true sense of the word. Nor did he (Levi) mention the Swedes would be dropping in from time to time. He also wrote in the report that Rossi was only there to start it up at the beginning, and came back at the end to assist draw the fuel sample, but we now know Rossi/Fabiani, were there maybe the whole time.


    One would think with the huge importance of this test, were the Hotcat to be proven real, that Levi, and those that signed the report, would have been much more careful in describing the roles of all. Especially Rossi's, considering the controversy over Rossi's participation in the first Hotcat Ferrara test, and their saying it was "independent", when it was not..

    Quote from Shane D.

    Somehow though after reading it all, I get the impression Rossi, his lawyers, and maybe some here, feel the Lugano profs were off limits to IH. That Rossi, and Rossi alone had/has the sole right to communicate and work with them.


    Yes, I completely agree.


    And this thought occurred to me regarding Uzi Sha. Apparently, from googling, he either has some significant finances or knows people with significant finances in Eastern Europe and Russia. So suppose he see's what IH is doing, and hopes that he (or his contacts) can get a piece of the action in Europe or other places that don't fall under the IH's territory or compete directly with IH. He might reasonably want to find ways to get resources to move LENR implementation forward (ultimately for profit). And if so, he might reasonably be in contact with Darden regarding IH's progress.


    When Darden gets sued, Sha might reasonably converse with Darden (perhaps even through lawyer Jaffe) about this incident, in order to not waste resources on a 'dead end' potential technology. And Sha might reasonably try to recruit Levi to do collaborate with other researchers as long as Levi is willing to distance himself from Rossi and work on more promising research.


    I admit this is speculation on my part, but I don't think it is an unreasonable scenario. And given the 'evidence' in Rossi's motion, Rossi's assertion that Darden was directly involved in getting Sha to to try to recruit Levi is also speculation. The assertions by Levi that he felt "harassed, threatened and coerced into doing something that I do not wish to do." seems pretty lame. Like, how dare Sha try to recruit me?


    What matters to me, most of all, is not what "dirt" the court case turns up on Andrea Rossi or Industrial Heat. My hope is that it reveals more about the fundamental nature of the E-Cat nickel hydrogen reaction. In my opinion, regardless if the mud balls are real, fictitious, or something in between, the fight is obscuring the truth about the reality of the technology as a whole. This is the biggest tragedy. Multiple and rigorous third party replications is what will clear away the negativity about the actual existence of a high powered effect.

    • Official Post
    Quote from THEDEBATEISUSELESS

    My hope is that they are moving on and performing new tests with systems they have designed. If they can produce rock solid results -- hopefully self sustained operation like Songsheng achieved -- with their own fuel and reactor, the results will hold ten times the significance of any previous E-Cat test


    If you are talking about IH, Dewey said on here the other day that IH was abandoning NiH. I wrote a post earlier today about that in light of the new documents, which as Sig notes, could possibly look incriminating to IH, and that maybe IH/Dewey said what he did to make IH's actions appear less incriminating.


    When the suit is over, with Rossi either in jail, or wearing a Nobel science medal, while prancing around his new billion $ mansion facing Miami Beach, IH will be actively back in the NiH game...maybe.

    Quote from THEDEBATEISUSELESS

    Multiple and rigorous third party replications is what will clear away the negativity about the actual existence of a high powered effect.


    That most likely doesn't exist. (I know, we obviously differ on this - and to be clear, I'm referring to pure NiH LENR).


    If, in fact pure NiH LENR is a dead end, it's a good thing to know that it is a dead end. And yes, it would be super-awesome if somehow it works.


    I just don's see any credible evidence that pure NiH has ever produced LENR.


    And I've seen a lot of evidence that it doesn't.


    But, like Edison, if we can rule out NiH, that helps move things to more promising materials.

    Quote from sigmoidal

    And this thought occurred to me regarding Uzi Sha. Apparently, from googling, he either has some significant finances or knows people with significant finances in Eastern Europe and Russia.

    Really ? That's interesting. I have tried to type that name on google but there were no significant results or at least no that info.

    Can you please post the link ?

    Quote from Shane D.

    If you are talking about IH, Dewey said on here the other day that IH was abandoning NiH. I wrote a post earlier today about that in light of the new documents, which as Sig notes, could possibly look incriminating to IH, and that maybe IH/Dewey said what he did to make IH's actions appear less incriminating.


    When the suit is over, with Rossi either in jail, or wearing a Nobel science medal, while prancing around his new billion $ mansion facing Miami Beach, IH will be actively back in the NiH game...maybe.


    I was talking about the Swedish replicators and/or other groups that may be gearing up for projects. My opinion, which may not be worth a grain of salt, is that the NiH technology is real and the Rossi Effect was just the Focardi/Piantelli effect scaled up a few orders of magnitude (mainly due to increasing surface area and incorporating additional methods of atomic hydrogen (or ions of atomic hydrogen) production. If this can be verified by so many third parties -- all utilizing the same set of guidelines -- that the effect becomes indisputable, it will cast a new light on the conflict between Industrial Heat and Andrea Rossi. Other than confirming that his technology as a whole was real, this may not glamorize Rossi to any significant extent. In fact, it could possibly -- this is hypothetical -- reveal a situation in which Industrial Heat intentionally tried to marginalize the significance of NiH technology and Andrea Rossi withheld the best evidence of his effect for petty reasons. My gut feeling is that replicating the high powered NiH effect is not difficult if you have gained the hands on experience and know how to properly prepare the nickel. I honestly feel that Andrea Rossi, at least in the past, didn't want other parties to realize how simple it is to reproduce the effect with focused, concentrated, and methodical effort. If Industrial Heat at some point realized this too -- regardless if they were able to gain the know how themselves -- they might have wanted to downplay the significance of NiH technology to allow some parties to catch up.


    All of this is just my wild speculation -- I'm thinking out loud. The only part I'm personally convinced of is that the basic NiH effect is real and that by increasing the surface area and applying stimulation to produce atomic hydrogen you can boost the effect. But I'll admit, since I am not God, I could be wrong there too.


    One thing I am pretty certain of is that we will learn much, much more during the trial. Making accusations at any party with the limited information we have is flat out risky and wrong. And, to be blunt, I just want to see how this technology can be put to use. I wouldn't even be typing here if there was an organization posting videos of their replications showing massive excess heat release.

    Despite what we might think, Rossi's lawyers did make a big deal out of the contacts with Dewey Weaver and Dewey got questioned about it. And this act may have prejudiced these potential witnesses. Whether it amounts to anything we shall see. I hope not.


    I am not impressed with Tom Darden's hands on involvement with the E-Cat. He is out of his element despite his eloquent evaluation of what is happening. Ditto for Dewey. There should be technically competent and knowledgeable people evaluating LENR technology including Rossi's E-Cat IP. Outside of Murray I do not see any real engineering and scientific know-how within IH. Things may have changed--I hope so. Murray probably would have shut down the whole 1MW plant test before it even started. Things never would have gotten to this point had that been done. Of course I have to say I only know what we find out here but from Darden's letter it strikes me as he (or Vaughn) was not managing things well. I'm just calling it as I see it.


    I personally think the work of Focardi and Piantelli showed strong evidence that the NiH effect was real. They performed extensive tests and experiments. By simply going from bulk nickel to micron powder the effect should be capable of being increased a hundred times or more due to a much greater percentage of the fuel absorbing hydrogen. I don't want to debate this issue, but this is my opinion. If you feel that Focardi and Piantelli provided no evidence of an effect that is your opinion. And your opinion may be much more qualified than my own -- I'm not an engineer or scientist.

    Quote from Shane D.

    Peter,


    Good point. It was not spelled out that way in the Lugano report authored by Levi either. He was very clear that this was independent in the true sense of the word. Nor did he (Levi) mention the Swedes would be dropping in from time to time. He also wrote in the report that Rossi was only there to start it up at the beginning, and came back at the end to assist draw the fuel sample, but we now know Rossi/Fabiani, were there maybe the whole time.


    One would think with the huge importance of this test, were the Hotcat to be proven real, that Levi, and those that signed the report, would have been much more careful in describing the roles of all. Especially Rossi's, considering the controversy over Rossi's participation in the first Hotcat Ferrara test, and their saying it was "independent", when it was not..


    Shane,


    Things may have happened as described in the report but according to Darden Rossi/Fiabini was supposed to be there during the entirety so there is at the very least a disconnect here.

    Ele,


    I would you to ask you a basic science question.


    How far in microns can hydrogen typically diffuse into a bulk nickel sample in a gaseous environment? I believe I've read papers -- if I am interpreting them correctly -- that a beta phase nickel hydride layer develops within the first few microns that inhibits further migration of hydrogen into the bulk of the sample.

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