Why the heck you say Rossi has no products? You have seen tens of ECats you have seen the plant. In photos; some of you, IH faithful do not believe it exists.
Peter - working in the industry I call a product something that someone is manufacturing and I or anybody else (a person or an institution) can BUY. So in my opinion the installation in Doral (or other places earlier) is not a product - at best it was a prototype that based on its data never produced that what it was designed for...
Jed
You say it is beyond your comprehension why people do not just look at the data and reach the same conclusion as yourself.
What is obvious to you is not obvious to a layman like myself.
While I understand the statistical point of a lack of variance in the data I do not understand the context in which the data was gathered.
I could take your word for it, but Jed says or Rossi says is all the same to me because I cannot judge, although it sure smells fishy.
As I have said before, a rigorous replication by a reputable science lab of the Ecat or a sale of working products would convince me of the reality. But I doubt that will happen. On the other hand evidence in court may well provide conclusive evidence of Rossi as a fraud, we shall see.
What I do not understand is the story of Rossi as a clever fraudster who fools smart people like science professors and rich investors like Darden and yet when it comes to the one year test and $89 million is at stake, surely the home run for Rossi (if he is a con man) then he did not even bother trying, just lazy and obvious fake data (according to you). He could have just copied data from somewhere else or been creative, or had it computer generated, it makes no sense.
....for Rossi (if he is a con man) then he did not even bother trying, just lazy and obvious fake data (according to you). He could have just copied data from somewhere else or been creative, or had it computer generated, it makes no sense.
But that is the 'mistake' that all of us (me included at one time) have made regarding Rossi's intriguing claims: we assume that he is honest and not delusional. Because most of the people we encounter on a day-to-day basis are honest and not delusional. This is especially true in the scientific research community, which self-selects for earnest, critically thinking and curious people.
I'm not sure it's really even a 'mistake' to make that assumption about researchers, because it is a reasonable assumption. But there is a weakness to that assumption and Rossi seems to be particularly experienced in exploiting that weakness. He's done it for decades with pretty good results (for him).
The 'makes no sense' part comes from assuming that he's not delusional. But he clearly is delusional. He actually believes he's a Nobel Prize-worthy inventor. He is extremely proud of receiving a U.S. Patent (see his JONP website), but the patent is merely for a heat transfer process (not for energy production of any type - LENR or otherwise). He even called his patent "the ultimate peer-review". But anyone who actually publishes research knows that this is not reality.
When you are delusional, your intentionally deceptive behavior becomes reasonable. Not infrequently, delusional people can come to believe their own intentional deceptions. Rossi himself characterized one of his deceptions as a 'masterpiece'.
I could go on and get more specific, but it's already all been said before, and I get weary of it.
In summary, I think that the reason that Rossi's behaviors don't make any sense to us is because we are not (generally) intentionally deceptive and delusional.
It is not easy to try to jump into Rossi's head and explain his actions, because of his unique blend of deception, delusion and grandiose thinking.
The simple truth is that I haven't been saying Rossi produced one megawatt of steam consistently day in and day out.
That's what the data shows. Do you think it is true or not? If what the data shows is not true at all, why do you believe anything Rossi says? You know he is a liar for other reasons.
Moreover, I've repeated more than once that we don't know how accurate the data from the plant was -
Of course we know! That's absurd. Look at the data. You can see how "accurate" it is. It is a complete fantasy.
And, the last thing I'll say: even if somehow a decent quantity of excess heat was produced that doesn't necessarily mean that Rossi deserves to win a red cent.
If he had a decent quantity of excess heat, I.H. would have paid him $89 million. They would have seen it in the testing in North Carolina and he never would have gone to Florida.
He had no heat. His own data proves it. Deal with it. Face reality.
based on a glaring lack of empirical support for AR's claims, his demonstrated and admitted lies, his use of sock puppets on his blog to shape opinion, resorting to a lawsuit to get money rather than selling a trillion dollar product to the rest of the world, among other things.
Maybe that is true. But sounds remarkably similar to some other folks, but in reverse.
While I understand the statistical point of a lack of variance in the data I do not understand the context in which the data was gathered.
It was gathered from a large industrial boiler with many individual heaters. (See the photos.) The machine may have been equipped with a thermostat on the main outlet, but on large industrial equipment of this nature, especially with multiple heaters, no thermostat keeps the temperature to within 0.1 deg C. The ambient temperature from Florida weather and from the building heating and cooling will have an effect on the temperature of the fluid even with a thermostat in the boiler. Ambient temperatures vary by more than 0.1 deg C. You can confirm this with a thermometer in your house or office. Record the temperature at a given hour, or the high temperature if it has a high/low feature.
To put it another way, because the ambient temperature varies from day to day, if the machine was controlled with a thermostat, then the input power could not have been so consistent. And if it was not thermostatically controlled, then the output heat could not have been so consistent.
yet when it comes to the one year test and $89 million is at stake, surely the home run for Rossi (if he is a con man) then he did not even bother trying, just lazy and obvious fake data (according to you). He could have just copied data from somewhere else or been creative, or had it computer generated, it makes no sense.
You are right. It makes no sense. But that is what the data shows. I do not know what he hoped to accomplish. Perhaps he was planning to use the legal system as a way to extort $89 million from I.H. with bogus data. Perhaps he is hoping he can bamboozle a jury. I hope he fails to do that.
It is not just according to me that the data is obviously fake. Murray thought so too, as you see in Exhibit 5. Many people here agree.
When multiple third parties eventually confirm the Rossi Effect and share a guaranteed to work formula that others can use to reproduce their results, Rossi may very well deserve a Nobel Prize. Focardi and Piantelli may have figured out the basic effect, but I think Rossi took it to the next level, making it practical. For this to happen, widespread replications across the world must take place to cement the reality of the technology in the minds of even the most ardent cynics. Either that, or Andrea Rossi needs to put a product on the market that anyone with adequate funds can purchase without having to wait. Of course confirmation of the Rossi Effect may come without his involvement if individuals like Me356 would openly share what they have learned.
I don't think Andrea Rossi is delusional. In my opinion, he has inventors disease which is almost impossible to avoid catching if you have an amazing world changing technology or you have convinced yourself to believe that. If you desire to keep full and total control of your technology, like Patterson did with his technology, the disease can become more severe to the point that it inhibits the technology from ever emerging and being used in a practical way. Part of the reason why inventors disease is so difficult to shake off is not every last one of the symptoms are internal -- if you have a real technology or proclaim you do there are indeed many other parties who will want a piece of the action or everything you have. Some folks will claim they invented the technology to begin with and you really have no right to anything; others will try to work deals with you to pry loose your IP; some folks may even try to steal the technology via various nefarious means. The issue becomes figuring out who are the bad guys from the GOOD GUYS who truthfully and sincerely want to help you push the technology to commercialization. Overall, I think there is usually more GOOD GUYS than BAD GUYS, but there are also many folks with motivations somewhere in between. For an inventor who is stressed out due to finances, loads of work and little help, struggling to find equipment, and has a dozen people screaming different messages at him, it can all become overwhelming. It could potentially even lead them into telling falsehoods or lying about various issues for what they might internally consider the "greater good" of advancing their technology.
Yet again, too many voices telling them different things,constant and continual stress, anxiety, worry, financial issues, and lack of sleep/rest can make people behave inappropriately. It doesn't make them flat out evil or a totally delusional nutcase -- it only exposes their weakness as human beings.
Of course there are exceptions, and I think there are a tiny minority of truly raunchy flat out evil people in the world. I don't think Rossi is one of them. But the court case could prove me wrong.
But sounds remarkably similar to some other folks, but in reverse.
Who does it sound like? Who else had done anything like this?
Einstein had a patent on a refrigerator but that is not what he got the Nobel for. It wasn't even for relativity since that was still being debated at the time.
Maybe that is true. But sounds remarkably similar to some other folks, but in reverse.
You seem obsessed with promoting the 'moral equivalence' meme, which I find absurd.
Sock puppets? Masterpieces? Giving orders and instructing the 'Director of Engineering' for the independent 'customer'? Instructing the independent customer's president (who, though 'independent' is also the president of your own company - Leonardo) to name the company "Advanced Derivatives of Johnson Mathey"? Fake invoices? Fake Journal (JONP)? Fake engineering degree? Fake data? Fake calorimetry? Fake robotic factories? Fake military customer? Fake satisfied customers (3 or 13, I can't keep all these fake stories straight)?
IH is doing the same thing, only in reverse?
It's hard for me to believe that even you really believe that.
Well spoken! Peter Glück and other blind Rossi followers seem to be fine along with Rossi just claiming to have the holy grail, no need to manufacture or sell a product to whoever may order one. Rossi-says Is good enough forever...now at least for a decade.
More like other IH followers seem to be fine along with Dewey just claiming all sorts of rubbish. Dewey-says is good enough, now and forever.
QuoteI do hope that others who have a serious interest getting this technology to market will succeed soon.
I wouldn't count on IH delivering commercially viable LENR solutions.
When multiple third parties eventually confirm the Rossi Effect and share a guaranteed to work formula that others can use to reproduce their results, Rossi may very well deserve a Nobel Prize.
When pigs fly, Elmer Fudd will receive the Nobel Prize.
Sorry, but it needs to be said.
The hypothesis that fuel processing makes any difference is not supported by any empirical data.
I say this with all sincerity because I do hold respect toward you and others who have actually got their hands dirty with some real experimentation. How closely have you followed Me356's suggestions? Do you think it would be worthwhile for someone in the open source LENR community to do so?
When multiple third parties eventually confirm the Rossi Effect and share a guaranteed to work formula that others can use to reproduce their results,
If, not when. Experts working with Rossi tried for more than a year. They got nothing. It is extremely unlikely there is any excess heat, so there is nothing to confirm.
I don't think Andrea Rossi is delusional.
He is not delusional. He is a thief and an extortionist. He stole $11 million and he is trying to use the legal system to try to extort $267 million more.
This has nothing to do with energy, or cold fusion, or technology. It is a scam. He did not even bother to make the fake data look realistic. He just threw some ridiculous numbers into a spreadsheet. He must have known I.H. would not fall for that. He did not even bother trying to answer Murray's letter. He is hoping that a jury will fall for it, I suppose because he figures that ordinary people know nothing about technology or temperatures, and they will sympathize with his bogus sob story and award him the money.
The fact that people like you and Gluck fall for his scam makes me worry that a jury might also be deceived.
Rossi will extort the money even though that destroys I.H. and eliminates any possibility of more funding for cold fusion. He doesn't give a damn about cold fusion. He resembles the MIT plasma fusion scientists, or Gary Taubes. Taubes cynically told Ed Storms "I don't give a shit about science or truth; I'm in this for the money." Taubes trashed the reputation of a grad student and helped destroy cold fusion just to sell a few more books. At least he was honest!
it may have destroyed the field of cold fusion. That remains to be seen.
Please, stop with the nonsense. There is more activity and funding in the LENR space than ever before. 90+ active entities in just the US and Europe alone, not to mention the huge revival underway in Japan, India, Russia, and China.
More like other IH followers seem to be fine along with Dewey just claiming all sorts of rubbish.
Dewey and his claims have nothing to do with this! THE DATA FROM ROSSI proves he is a fraud. You can leave everything else out of the picture, and still be 100% sure that Rossi is lying and the 1-year test was a farce.
Dewey and I.H. might be the devil incarnate, but Rossi's data still shows that he is lying.
Stop pointing at Dewey or this or that, or pretend moral equivalence. Stop evading the issues. Face facts!
Please, stop with the nonsense. There is more activity and funding in the LENR space than ever before.
No, there is not. I have been in this field for more than 20 years. There was much more in the early 1990s. I know every major researcher in this field. I have read, copy edited or translated hundreds of papers. There is practically no activity. There is only modest funding from I.H. and from the anonymous person funding Texas Tech. (probably Bill Gates). If it were not for these two, there would be zero funding and zero research.
90+ active entities in just the US and Europe alone, not to mention the huge revival underway in Japan, India, Russia, and China.
That is nonsense. I do not know where you got those numbers, but they are wrong. There are not even 10 "active entities" in the whole world -- if by "entity" you mean professionals with real names doing actual work at universities or corporations. Phantom people with fake names such as "Me356" who come here and claim they replicated Rossi without providing any details are not "active entities."
There is no "revival" in Japan. I know (or knew) every Japanese researcher. Most died of old age years ago. I speak Japanese and I translate their papers into English. I have been to meetings in Japan where the papers were delivered in Japanese. There are two small groups in universities, and one or two people in corporations working on cold fusion. They are elderly, and they accomplish little these days.
@Jed,
I'm afraid you might be living in the past.
I'm afraid you might be living in the past.
I know all about the Anthropocene Institute, and their claims, and that tree in their presentation, listing Mitsubishi and others. I know more about those institutions and the people working in them than Dr. Frank Ling does. I have actually worked with those people. Most of the researchers in those labs stopped working years ago because they are retired or dead. You can't do science when you are dead.
Take Mitsubishi, for example. When Iwamura retired, Mitsubishi generously donated his equipment to the university. I appreciate that. The equipment was probably worth more than a million dollars originally. On the other hand, it is old and obsolete, and it is probably not worth much now, so it was a tax write-off. Anyway, there are no researchers left at Mitsubishi, and the university project is barely funded and stagnating. I do not know how well their transmutation project is going. They described their replication of Mizuno at MIT, at the ICCF conference, and in the Nikkei (which I translated). In my opinion, based on their MIT presentation, this replication proves nothing. It is full of holes. (When I pointed out some of the holes to them, their lawyer sent me a nasty letter, which did not endear me to them.)
Of course there are exceptions, and I think there are a tiny minority of truly raunchy flat out evil people in the world.
I suggest you study 20th century history. See, for example: the Nanking massacre, the Holocaust, the Soviet Union Gulag system, the Cultural Revolution in China, or Jim Crow laws in the U.S. These were appalling crimes committed by tens of millions of people. Those people were all flat out evil -- as evil as Genghis Khan's hoards. People everywhere have it in their nature to be ruthless barbarians when circumstances promote it.
Human nature is malleable. We are not immutably bound to commit terrible crimes, but just about everyone will commit them in war or in a dictatorship, or when the opportunity to make a lot of money comes along. Take Paul Manafort. He got millions of dollars in stolen money. He got it legally, with no danger to himself, by doing political favors for kleptocrat dictators in Russia and Ukraine. If those dictators offered you millions to do something similar, you would probably do it.
