Skilled people at I.H. spent a year looking for it, and found nothing,
Who ? And skilled in what ?
If IH had found nothing (or have not told what they have found) this mean only that they where not able to find it or not wanting to show.
LENR effects were replicated by other groups (as you can learn from this forum).
No Jed. They never promised anything to anybody.
Oh yes they did promise, to me, McKubre and others. In writing.
No Academic will ever answer to criticism of such very low level and from anonymous source.
These were not anonymous questions. They were messages signed by us, including some important people in this field. I repeat: they did not respond.
See, your problem is, you don't know what you are talking about.
All this trouble about "the color" is completely ill formed because color in a digital photo and in a digital documents is not an objective measure.
That's what I said! That's why I asked them: "The photos are orange. What color did you see with the human eye?" This is a 7,000-year-old method of measuring temperature. It worked when iron was discovered, and it still works today. It is an objective measure.
People who understand digital cameras better than I do tell me that camera makers strive to make the colors match what the human eye sees. Otherwise the pictures seem strange. A campfire should be orange; the sun at noon or the moon at night should be white. So the reactor probably was glowing orange, meaning there was no excess heat.
This makes no sense. If the old experiment is wrong, there is nothing to replicate. The effect has never been seen, and it probably does not exist.
Skilled people at I.H. spent a year looking for it, and found nothing, so I doubt there is anything to be found. If it does not exist, it isn't important. Right?
I suppose you might say "testing to see if the Rossi effect exists is important." But apart from Rossi's notoriety, I do not see why this particular claim is especially important. If I won the lottery, I would pay people to check 10 or 20 different claims. This one does not deserve a high priority. As I said, it was already checked by I.H. Assuming it does exist, what makes it more important than other claims? Lots of cold fusion effects might exist, and have been reported from time to time. Cold fusion with Ti and Au have been replicated. So I guess that makes them more promising than Rossi's unconfirmed nanoparticle Ni claim.
It makes perfect sense. Even *if* (I'm not saying one way or the other) there was something wrong with the Lugano test, it doesn't negate the reality of the overall Rossi Effect. As Darden said in that email that was published on the docket, there are multiple fuel mixtures. There are also many different designs of reactors that have been tested over the years. Cures explained on Cobraf how they utilized different ratios of ingredients and different methods of electromagnetic stimulation. There are many reasons why a single reactor could have a hypothetical "issue" of some kind without the overall technology being non-existent. So instead of trudging up debate over an old test, I think it is much more productive for new totally independent tests to be conducted: with no fuel element received from Rossi or IH.
Also, if you think there is no effect whatsoever, then I guess you are also saying that Piantelli and Focardi (along with the other researchers that worked with them) were also deluded into thinking they were seeing a real effect with NiH when in reality there was nothing at all to see. Going back and reading the papers about their early NiH work, it sure seems (at least to a laymen and non-engineer) that simply increasing the surface area of their fuel so more than a miniscule portion could have a chance of becoming active could have boosted their output dramatically. To be honest, the general theme of what Andrea Rossi has done looks like an evolution of their work. In my mind, if he has NOTHING, then that would logically mean they had NOTHING too. I do not accept this idea.
Personally, I think NEW tests by a party outside of the current conflict between Andrea and IH would tell us much more about this effect than re-hashing Lugano forever.
Who ?
I would suggest you go visit them and find out, but I doubt they would let you in. I wouldn't let you in!
I suppose the first requirement would be that you give them your real name, your affiliation, and so on. They probably have a dim view of ignorant, anonymous trolls on the Internet who make up stuff and assert it as fact. Such as, "criticism of such very low level and from anonymous source" when we are talking about signed messages from experts. You need to stop doing that if you want people to take you seriously.
And skilled in what ?
Calorimetry.
If IH had found nothing (or have not told what they have found)
It makes no difference what they told me. I visited them and determined the answers for myself. Many people in this field have visited them.
Anyone notice the PID on Rossi's grey control box?
(And an Industrial Heat sticker on some photos).
Thanks for those pictures, worth thousands of explanatory words.
I see the three PID's. You mention 3 thermocouples in Lugano, right?
I'm assuming that Rossi would say these are used to control the heating coils of the catalyzed reactor, no? (I have a simpler explanation)
I'm interested in how you interpret these, and what specifically are you calling our attention to?
Palladium Technology -
Peter, we know too little about the technology to determine how efficient it can become. If the Pd is only a catalyst it might be possible to recycle. I would not rule out the possibility of a Palladium rich asteroid hitting earth, after all one of the bigger bottle necks for asteroid mining is chemical propulsion. The technology would obviously mature over time and even if it won't become the full solution it could be part of the solution, especially when it comes to understanding the science. It could be the key that opens the floodgate (if it was engineered and shared a bit better).
Large complicated setups -
Cold Fusion (Pd) does not have to be huge and complicated. Those that are peddling these theories - not sure where they are getting this idea. Look at the brass ball demonstration or Jet Energy's Nanor, that's table top Palladium technology. The Pd guys have sometimes preferred huge expensive research in favor of quick and dirty, there has been times when those in charge of the departments wanted to sit on the expensive equipment and look fancy.
Creating the most accessible, replicable and simplistic Pd technology rather than the most extensive would go light years further in terms of funding. Unfortunately, the Palladium scientists seems more interested in, as Jed has explained, to publish theoretical papers.
When a setup takes up an entire room to measure almost immeasurable amounts of excess energy, this is not credible, it's incredible because only a few people are smart to understand what's going on and we have to rely on them not being overly optimistic and not biased. It's very hard to reproduce. Cold Fusion started on a table top! Remember Pons and Fleischmann?
Japanese Funding -
It's interesting how one person can ask a question and get one answer and how someone else can ask the same question and get a totally different answer. My personal conclusion is thus that Japanese funding varies depending on who is asking and how he is asking.
Indian funding -
Last time i checked in on the situation the government had initiated half a dozen projects. It would be unfortunate if all funding suddenly has been cut and all those project put on ice. I thought that was just the beginning, but maybe they have been getting cold feet's. I'll see if I can follow up on it.
* Funny side note - Incidentally I was contacted by an investor from India just a few days ago who asked if I knew Cold Fusion startups suitable for investment and incubation. If there is a promising teams over there interested to go commercial I'd be happy to make an introduction.
Thanks for those pictures, worth thousands of explanatory words.
I see the three PID's. You mention 3 thermocouples in Lugano, right?
I'm assuming that Rossi would say these are used to control the heating coils of the catalyzed reactor, no? (I have a simpler explanation)
I'm interested in how you interpret these, and what specifically are you calling our attention to?
In Lugano, only one thermocouple was used.
The main idea is that if the temperature is being controlled by PID, then there is a temperature being measured and almost certainly that temperature is displayed.
It makes perfect sense. Even *if* (I'm not saying one way or the other) there was something wrong with the Lugano test, it doesn't negate the reality of the overall Rossi Effect.
There is no "reality of overall Rossi effect." It is all handwaving, speculation, error and fraud. There is a hint that it may be real, but there is way more evidence for, say, Au cold fusion than nanoparticle Ni. So if you are looking for a good prospect for commercialization, go for the gold.
There is hardly any solid evidence of Ni-H from anyone, despite years of effort. Thermocore was the best, I guess . . .
Personally, I think NEW tests by a party outside of the current conflict between Andrea and IH would tell us much more about this effect than re-hashing Lugano forever.
Rossi will never allow anyone to do a proper test. He never has, and by now it is clear that he never will. Not because a test would be difficult, or expensive. Heck, I could have done a proper test in a few days when I first heard from him. I offered to do one. He turned me down.
Okay, my test would not have been definitive, but it would have been much better than anything he has published, and wa-a-a-a-y better than the 1-year farce.
The fact that he refuses to do a test really tells you pretty much all you need to know about him. Defkalion also refused to let me or anyone else test their system. Clean Planet threatened me with a lawsuit because I looked at their MIT data. A pattern emerges! These organizations do not pass the "smell test." Okay, that is not an objective, scientific criterion, but common sense tells you they are not to be trusted, and you should not waste time on them. If you don't like palladium, go test titanium or gold instead. Why not?
In Lugano, only one thermocouple was used.
One was installed, but I do not think it was ever read from. (I mean the voltage was not read; it was not recorded on a computer or anything.)
That was another of the questions we asked, which was not answered. I think I asked about that, as well as the color. No answer.
Perhaps they read the voltage but never revealed it. Who knows.
Japanese Funding -
It's interesting how one person can ask a question and get one answer and how someone else can ask the same question and get a totally different answer. My personal conclusion is thus that Japanese funding varies depending on who is asking and how he is asking.
My conclusion is that if you want to know what a Japanese government agency is doing, you should look on the official website of that agency to find out. They are not allowed to lie to the public. Okay, they sometimes do, but in this case, the report looks real to me. Why is there even a question about this?
If you are not satisfied with that report, I suggest you contact the researchers it lists and ask them.
Indian funding -
Last time i checked in on the situation the government had initiated half a dozen projects.
If that were true, Srinivasan or someone else in India would have reported it at the ICCF conference, or some other conference. We would have heard about it. Things like public funding of experiments in cold fusion are not kept secret.
Nothing like that was described in the 2015 issue of Current Science:
http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?p=1603
Perhaps they read the voltage but never revealed it. Who knows.
Apparently some thermocouple data was noted. We will find out, maybe, soon enough.
The Swedish Professors have been made aware of the noted thermocouple data. Or so the story goes.
It takes far (far) more than $67k to even set up a lab. And we know they set up a lab.
Yes, as I mentioned, that was thanks to Mitsubishi, which donated the equipment when Iwamura retired. That's what they told me, anyway. It was not government money, if that is what you are thinking.
Granted, it is a national university, but Prof Kasagi is retired, so he is not costing them anything. Profs work until they drop, for nothing.
UPDATE: Ito is not retired.
Profs do as the please in any case. You can't hold 'em or herd 'em.
Apparently some thermocouple data was noted.
Really? That's interesting.
We will find out, maybe, soon enough.
Why will we find out?
Anyway, wouldn't the thermocouple have melted if the temperature was a high as claimed? That's the assertion here, in recent days. If so, the TC is solid proof the temperature was lower than the IR camera showed. It is an odd way to use a TC, but it works. Sort of like a pyrometric kiln indicator.
Anyway, wouldn't the thermocouple have melted if the temperature was a high as claimed? That's the assertion here, in recent days. If so, the TC is solid proof the temperature was lower than the IR camera showed. It is an odd way to use a TC, but it works. Sort of like a pyrometric kiln indicator.
That;s what I was thinking.
The calibrated resistance (heater) wire will take a little more heat, but not by much.
I meant we might find out more about the noted TC temperatures as the court case continues. It is a maybe, since a lot of things don't make it to the docket.
Also, if you think there is no effect whatsoever, then I guess you are also saying that Piantelli and Focardi (along with the other researchers that worked with them) were also deluded into thinking they were seeing a real effect with NiH when in reality there was nothing at all to see.
Well, no one has been able to replicate Piantelli, so I do not know what to make of his claim. His calorimetry seems kind of crude to me, at first glance.
But anyway, your entire point is wrong, wrong, wrong. First, if Piantelli is wrong, that's a normal scientific mistake, not a delusion. Most research results are a mistake, because no one has ever done it before -- whatever it is. As Stan Pons says, being half right in this business is a very good batting average. That's why the first airplane barely flew, and the first version of any program barely works. For details, see: Obamacare Rollout Fiasco, or Brook's dictum: "plan to throw the first one away."
Second, an attempt by Rossi to improve on Piantelli cannot reflect badly on Piantelli. Saying it reflects badly would be like saying that the people at Kamiokande could not replicate Fleischmann, so that casts doubt on Fleischmann's claim. As I noted, the people at Kamiokande made many mistakes. I described it as, "trying to tune a piano with a sledge hammer." They were not deluded. They just did not know anything about electrochemistry, any more than an electrochemist would know about the Kamiokande detector. It didn't occur to them to ask an electrochemist. Their mistakes were kind of silly, but I would never say they were deliberate, or fraudulent. Whereas Rossi's one-year test data shouts out "FRAUD!!!" It is dead obvious he made up those numbers and stuffed them into a spreadsheet.
I think Piantelli does not believe Rossi, and he would be upset at the idea that Rossi's data reflects badly on his work. I don't want to put words in his mouth but I have heard from him, and my impression is that he does not want to be associated with Rossi.
palladium v nickel.
I have seen the cost/ metal availability numbers for using Pd and assuming D +D reactions.
Are there calculations for the use of Ni for Rossi's claims of Ni to Cu transmutations are correct.
How long would the Ni last. It seems like if Ni is consumed there could be a long term problem for that technology (assuming it works as Rossi claims)
recall Rossi claimed that "about 30% of nickel was turned into copper, after 6 months of uninterrupted operation".
Also, if you think there is no effect whatsoever, then I guess you are also saying that Piantelli and Focardi (along with the other researchers that worked with them) were also deluded into thinking they were seeing a real effect with NiH when in reality there was nothing at all to see.
And from the beginning, Focardi seemed content to assume the role of the theoretician, and Rossi the experimenter with the secret patented black box. I can't seem to find it now, but there was a video with Rossi going through 'real math and physics' on a white board (it was P = IV) while Focardi watched. It seemed to me to be Rossi's chance to be on camera with a real physicist doing 'real calculations'. In any case, Focardi just watched, though seemingly impatiently.
Rossi and Focardi's 2010 paper specifically states that it does not describe the 'energy catalyzer' device, stating that it was patented (which is a different process in ITA than in US). And Focardi continued for several years to hang out in the background (he was 77 years old when they worked on that first paper, and hospitalized at 78), never questioning the experimental evidence. He was the theoretician, not the experimenter. I found it a bit odd, however, that with Rossi he seemed quite content to avoid all things experimental. I suspect Rossi, by his actions, kind of insisted on that.
In any case, I suppose you could call Focardi 'deluded' for not questioning Rossi. I don't think that's quite the right word. Overly complacent might be more the phrase I might use. He hadn't had any success that he could substantiate to that point. He was in the twilight of his career.
You need to read the account and quotes in the book "Secrets of the E-Cat." Focardi reveals that he was heavily involved in Rossi's early research. Remember, Rossi first brought him in to verify that the excess heat was real. They ended up testing many different systems together. If you look at the quotes in that book, you see how he explains the systems he tested could self sustain for hours and did indeed work. Now, at some point in his life as his health started to fail, I am guessing he didn't do as much hands on work. However, his confidence in what he witnessed was absolute.
To see why their interpretation of Court documents is so false have a look at Abd's thoughtful summary
An important notice for everybody. ABD is a member of a large think-tank with focus on opinion making. His vita is well constructed: Building up ties to important people in the field, acting like a LENR supporter, but working for...
Your view here has no supporting evidence, and is directly contradicted by Darden's e-mail.
I looks like you and IH have something in common: Absolute no knowledge how real business (by using hands and logic thinking) is made...
IH made the Lugano reactor: If they now make everybody claim .. we don't know what we used... But do you really know who is IH ??, - a company consisting of one drawer, containing legal documents only, and no employees?
Skilled people at I.H. spent a year looking for it, and found nothing, so I doubt there is anything to be found.
JED: IH has no employees!! What do mean? Skilled contractors under NDA??
Ni-Li-H LENR is an at least 6 dimensional optimization problem and if you have no dust of the physics behind the successfull process, then even if you get a COP of 6 or more you will not be able to reproduce it one day later!!! I can understand that this drives people into madness!
