Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

  • Note: this post is regarding the LEGAL aspects of Rossi vs. Darden. It has no relevance to the ROSSI EFFECT or PSYCHOSOCIAL issues.


    I believe it is a critically important defect in Rossi's suit against IH that there is no signed GPT agreement and no written evidence that there was any written agreement in Darden or Vaughn's emails.


    The reason for this is that we now know (from the exhibit that Rossi just posted, 226-03, with an excerpt of Darden's deposition) that Darden is stating that he told Rossi multiple times before the move of the 1MW Plant to Doral, that all options for Performance on Rossi's $89 Million GPT had expired.


    For Rossi to prevail, he has the burden of proof to show that in fact there was a remaining $89 Million GPT Performance option. And Rossi's testimony is insufficient. It is insufficient even ignoring the clear evidence of his demonstrated purposeful deception, because this would just be a 'he said, she said' argument which can not prevail with a contract of this magnitude. Any Judge (and that includes a Judge giving instructions to a jury) will state that for a contract of this magnitude, hearsay is not sufficient evidence of an agreement. Add to this Rossi's character burden and it is just not realistic to believe that Rossi has a possibility to prevail without stronger written evidence of an actual signed GPT or at least some evidence that Darden or Vaughn explicitly (in an email or somewhere) stated to Rossi that Doral was an official GPT.


    There are dozens of other reasons that Rossi could fail to win if there were a written agreement (legal standing of Leonardo NH vs. Leonardo FL, evidence that the Doral plant didn't meet performance, etc.). But this lack of a written GPT seems like a critical fatal flaw, in my opinion.

  • 214-23 IH 18-month Business Plan and Confidential Memo to investors, July 2014


    Quote

    Page 8 (docket) Business Plan


    If Rossi is on track to earn his $89M success fee, then IH may seek up to an additional $150M as early as Q3.


    Quote

    Page 33 (docket) Memo


    Rossi returns to work on 1MW ... Rossi has reached a tentative agreement with Johnson Matthey ....


    Note : page 33 doesn't mention that this is the GPT (or any kind of test).


    Quote

    Page 35 (docket) License agreement


    Includes "Installment III" and $89M payment for 350 days out of 400, COP 6 or greater.


    Rossi has not operated the 1MW plant since it left Ferrara in 2013, and only recently has he begun to focus on preparing the 1MW plant for operation. The 1MW unit will not be ready to operate until Sept 2013 or later, according to Rossi.


    You'd think that if the GPT $89M was no longer required, that they'd tell their investors?


    Edit : of course, later in the document they qualify all of this, saying that the technology transfer might not be complete, might not work etc etc ... but this is (IMHO) just standard investor covering-their-rear-ends stuff.

  • Quote

    You'd think that if the GPT $89M was no longer required, that they'd tell their investors?

    Quote

    Edit : of course, later in the document they qualify all of this, saying that the technology transfer might not be complete, might not work etc etc ... but this is (IMHO) just standard investor covering-their-rear-ends stuff.


    Indeed. it looks as though they have not been quite as airheaded as some have claimed, and are well aware that even though, after Lugano, things look good with Rossi they cannot count chickens till they have stuff working themselves. In this situation, faced with a ridiculous contract, they seem to have done the best they can. Let rossi do a test and intend to pay him the $89M but only if the IP transfer is complete. As Darden, under sworn testimony, says he told Rossi.


    You may prefer to take Rossi's sworn testimony over Darden's - but I doubt many will...


    Regards, THH

  • Indeed. it looks as though they have not been quite as airheaded as some have claimed, and are well aware that even though, after Lugano, things look good with Rossi they cannot count chickens till they have stuff working themselves. In this situation, faced with a ridiculous contract, they seem to have done the best they can. Let rossi do a test and intend to pay him the $89M but only if the IP transfer is complete. As Darden, under sworn testimony, says he told Rossi.


    You may prefer to take Rossi's sworn testimony over Darden's - but I doubt many will...


    Regards, THH


    It seems like some commentators really like to point out that "As Darden, under sworn testimony, says he told Rossi". I somehow get the feeling that there is a bias here since Rossi also says stuff under oath. Why don't you point that out instead? At certain places it is almost possible to get the idea that it is taken for granted that Rossi lies (Jed even accuses Rossi to lie flat out) on oath, but Darden don't, when in reality it is much more probable the other way around.


    Reading through the testimonies it is obvious that IH has a carefully chosen (by JD) script to follow to build their narrative (blame Lugano, blame their own stupidity when needed, beeing knowledgeable when needed, etc.), while Rossi more or less tell stuff like it is.


    When reading you really do have to take into account that Darden et al are lawyer/money type of people used to build narratives for investors where they make it look like they are telling something at the same time keeping their backs clean and hedging their betss and never get into specifics (GPT etc). This is only normal procedure for these kind of people who are not accustomed to doing any real work ...


    Mats Lewan quote from ECW is telling the same thing as well.


  • Well, it obviously didn't work with Dewey, so may not with Rossi. My point was, it needed to be said, and AFAIK nobody did it. It is suggested that IH's people were soft on Rossi's lies because they were afraid he would run away. Now it seems that even before Doral that was what they wanted. I'm puzzled, but suspect that there were too many people around this project who couldn't organise a tree-frog in the rain forest.


    IH was of course perfectly happy with all the unknowns. They had Rossi in a nice NDA leash, working for a year in a container believing it was the GPT, they hade a nice marketing site in Florida to bring Woodford and Chinese investers, they had a customer (JMP/Bass) who helped them raise the Woodford money. And Rossi helped them too (naively thinking it could be beneficial to him... )They loved all the delays because knowing they could wriggle themselves out of the $89M, they had Rossi working more or less for free. Remember, Darden is a money/lawyer/VC man. That is what he do...

  • Reading through the testimonies it is obvious that IH has a carefully chosen (by JD) script to follow to build their narrative (blame Lugano, blame their own stupidity when needed, being knowledgeable when needed, etc.), while Rossi more or less tell stuff like it is.

    I don't get the sense that Rossi is telling stuff like it is. But I also got the impression that there is a script IH is following to paint a particular narrative. Another element of the script you didn't mention: "if there was even a 1% chance of this working, we were willing to <insert any harebrained, nonsensical, self-contradictory, self-defeating thing we did>."


    Two things I haven't found in the depositions. Perhaps someone here can point them out?


    1. A statement from Rossi about what was going on between the time that the ECAT was delivered to Raleigh and the time it was shipped to Florida. He has said on his blog that they dragged their feet with the the test; they say they wanted the test to happen in their workshop in Raleigh. I wanted to hear a first-hand account about that period but didn't stumble upon it (I haven't searched far and wide for it.)


    2. A statement from Rossi about why he made changes to the 1MW set-up when it arrived from Raleigh. For example, what is his explanation for why he removed the steam trap and condenser?

  • Wow the night of a thousand cuts! It's like seeing a ninja in a Turkey Koop the night before Thanksgiving.


    Well it's like a witch hunt or maybe pack of hounds in a fox hunt some times here too. I've always detested mob justice. History has shown it's always ugly and usually wrong.


    Division needs a crisis of some kind to be created and to build up to wars and conflicts and usually serves one small group of peoples interest but it takes effort to sustain as people are naturally more diverse more intelligent and more interesting. division can't be sustained for ever and time is the true arbitrator what is said here and now means very little. In time real science will reveal it self for what it is or not and what we reflect on when it does will inform us better about what is really happening these days.


    In time the purpose of the division and what it is hiding will be clear as day to everyone who cares to look. As I say usually it's ugly.


    Personally I respect someone who seeks true justice in a court much more than some one who seeks division and hate in a forum to make his so called "justice".

  • Looking at the known facts,

    first it was 1 year test. JD referred to the test in his communication.

    It followed the proceedings Penon had proposed.

    IH was happy enough with the setup to use it for marketing purposes.

    IH paid Penon, IH paid West an Fabiani.

    IH charged JMC for the heat.

    Why should the judge not declare estoppel?

  • Quote

    It seems like some commentators really like to point out that "As Darden, under sworn testimony, says he told Rossi". I somehow get the feeling that there is a bias here since Rossi also says stuff under oath. Why don't you point that out instead?


    Sifferkoll in my post immediately above yours I say:


    Quote

    You may prefer to take Rossi's sworn testimony over Darden's - but I doubt many will...


    Given that as Sigmoidal points out, one or other of these gentlemen will have perjured himself under oath, you can probably work out on past record which I think is most likely to have done so. It is also easier for Rossi to claim mistake - that he misunderstood - or that he did not remember. Whereas for Darden's statement not to be true it would be a direct fabrication.

  • Why should the judge not declare estoppel?

    Because of the Term Sheet and the emails that Rossi sent to IH regarding the (fraudulently represented) 'customer'.


    In Rossi's emails, Rossi proposes a 'sale of power' from the 1 MW unit (which IH bought and owns) as a rental agreement. Rossi's proposal includes a description of the roles that Penon and Fabiani will play.


    This has been IH's story from the beginning of the case, and the evidence from their side continues to be consistent with this story.


    The Judge would not likely apply estoppel given the signed Term Sheet, the context of that agreement from Rossi's emails, and the lack of any signed GPT.


    Rossi claims that the story is that IH never intended on paying. But Vaughn's communications with investors and timeline and Darden's testimony show that they very much had planned to pay the full amount, and were anticipating the need for additional capital in order to move the business forward. This contradicts Rossi's story.


    And of course, all of this depended on an E-Cat producing power, which according to IH, never happened. And Rossi himself seems to have 'moved on' from 1MW E-Cats to even better things, like the Quark X, even though the demonstration of real excess power by the 1 MW E-Cat (right now, today) would be his best, fastest ticket to winning the case and receiving 89 Million TIMES 3 for triple damages = $267 Million, plus court fees plus enormous revenue from sales world-wide (excluding IH's territory which they purchased) AND a real shot at the Nobel Prize.


    Always the inventor, that Rossi! More and more people are getting a sense of the nature and quality of what Rossi invents ;-)

  • Sifferkoll in my post immediately above yours I say:



    Given that as Sigmoidal points out, one or other of these gentlemen will have perjured himself under oath, you can probably work out on past record which I think is most likely to have done so. It is also easier for Rossi to claim mistake - that he misunderstood - or that he did not remember. Whereas for Darden's statement not to be true it would be a direct fabrication.


    Right, of course anyone can have an opinion, but comparing an entrepreneur/inventor with a slippery banker/VC/lawyer kind of guy. Most would go for the first one. Dont you think. I agree that Rossi has been constantly terrorized on his past achievements, which are nowhere near as bad as a lot of people (incl you) are trying to make out. Hi did step on mafia toas for sure, and went bankrupt with some tax issues as a result. But thats about it.

  • Right, of course anyone can have an opinion, but comparing an entrepreneur/inventor with a slippery banker/VC/lawyer kind of guy. Most would go for the first one. Dont you think. I agree that Rossi has been constantly terrorized on his past achievements, which are nowhere near as bad as a lot of people (incl you) are trying to make out. Hi did step on mafia toas for sure, and went bankrupt with some tax issues as a result. But thats about it.


    Sifferkoll, it's hard to take you seriously. Rossi was 'constantly terrorized' on his 'past achievements'?


    Which achievements did you have in mind? The pollution of a certain area in Italy with a waste to oil scheme that never worked and cost the Italian taxpayers money? The failed thermoelectric devices paid for by the US taxpayer, all for not? Maybe you're talking about the E-Cat sold to the military? Rossi's robotic factories? How about his PhD, that's certainly an academic achievement. There's the 11 E-Cats he claims he made on JONP. Later there are the three E-Cats he claims he made (I know, it's hard to keep all this straight). Rossi claims he has submitted his devices to 'certification labs', so even if he hasn't yet received certification, at least he should get credit for that effort (please let us know which certification labs he submitted to, as I haven't been able to identify that yet). Maybe your are talking about the 'Journal' he founded, JONP itself?


    With all these 'achievements' it's hard to know where to begin discussing which of them he was 'constantly terrorized' about, and in what manner he was 'terrorized'. For all his efforts, Rossi has merely obtained several million dollars of Florida real estate. How does he endure such terror?


    Care to clarify?


  • I suppose you wish I spend time on that again. But since you so clearly stated YOUR narrative, you probably already know the other side of the the story, don't you? BTW, when talking about pollution you conveniently forget the mafia connection ... etc etc

  • Long time reader first time poster. I`ve read all the documents, listened to all the aurguments, and have come to the conclusion that the whole lawsuit is nothing more than an augument over who ownes the IP. Ownership of the IP could be worth billions even if the E-CAT is found to be not what Rossi has said it is. I myself believe that rossi has something just not the COP he claims and IH knows this. IH has paid Rossi 11.5 million dollars for the IP and believe it is theirs to do what they want and down the road if a HYDROGEN/ NICKLE system is developed to commercial success, the owners of the system will have to go through the IP holder to maufacture said device. Remember Rossi holds the only H/NI pattern in the United States. The E-CAT, in the eyes of IH, never produced the claimed COP OF 4-6 AND therefore does not have to pay the remaining portion of the contract because basic claims were never met. Rossi on the other hand has now developed the QX which if as he claims, uses the same fuel. This would fall under the IP that belongs to IH, Thus making the QX, the property of IH. rossi knew as early as October of 2013 that he had failed to fufill his obligation to IH and that the 89 mil was now off the table. The problem with this is, IH never put it in writing and that is what Rossi is basing his lawsuit on to keep his IP and out of IH hands. Its all about greed and to be honest, know one is innocent in this drama, IMHO

  • The E-CAT, in the eyes of IH, never produced the claimed COP OF 4-6 AND therefore does not have to pay the remaining portion of the contract because basic claims were never met.

    That is not what they say. They say it never produced any excess heat. None at all. Therefore they do not have have to pay the remaining portion. They also say that anytime Rossi makes it produce any measurable, significant excess heat, they will pay him. Maybe not $89 million, but they will pay something.


    Perhaps they are lying but they did not say what you claim. They said something else.


    I agree the Lugano test did not produce excess heat, and neither did the 1-year test. I have no information on the tests at I.H. but I trust them way more than I trust Rossi. For that matter, Rossi has not uploaded any data showing that earlier tests at I.H. actually worked. His data from the 1-year test is proof that it was fraud. He destroyed his own case.

  • Jed I was just posting MY opinion on why the lawsuit was filed in the first place. I MYSELF believe that it is the IP ownership that is at the heart of the lawsuit, not if the E-CAT worked. I also don`t believe it worked but I also believe that there is a Rossi Effect but a cop more towards 1.5-1.9, not the infinity and beyond that He claims

  • Sifferkoll, it's hard to take you seriously.


    I beg to differ... I actually do believe you take me seriously. One example; after me spending several months offline it took you about an hour or so to present the HF issue, quotes and everything. Isn't that strange for a newcomer (as you call yourself)? You've obviously done your homework and have a clear work description here since your shift started on Jan28th by making biased interpretations on the IH filings of that exact date... Makes you go hmmm... Coincidence? Hardly

  • I suppose you wish I spend time on that again. But since you so clearly stated YOUR narrative, you probably already know the other side of the the story, don't you? BTW, when talking about pollution you conveniently forget the mafia connection ... etc etc


    Sorry, I was asking you a question in response to your comment. You claimed that Rossi has been 'terrorized' for his 'achievements'. I'm asking how you think he was 'terrorized' and for what 'achievements'. That's not 'my side', it's 'your side'.


    Again, care to clarify?

  • It's important to 'watch the pea' in Rossi's shell game.

    Is not Rossi who is making a shell game here.


    They say it never produced any excess heat.

    Actually this is your partial interpretation of the documents.

    There is already sufficient evidence that IH had working reactors. This should be sufficient for the IP transfer !

    On my opinion is IH that would like to make the pea disappear and keep the money, without paying.

  • Jed I was just posting MY opinion on why the lawsuit was filed in the first place. I MYSELF believe that it is the IP ownership that is at the heart of the lawsuit, not if the E-CAT worked. I also don`t believe it worked but I also believe that there is a Rossi Effect but a cop more towards 1.5-1.9, not the infinity and beyond that He claims


    The point is that a reliable device with a few kW COP = 1.5 could be transformed using known industrial techniques into a device with COP = infinity. IH will have tech guys that tell them this. And therefore is they were getting this they would be sitting as you say on a gold mine and would be willing to pay $89M. We know there were set up to do this because of their private letters to investors, now not so private.


    The obsession over COP in many places is not helpful. Where you are testing is there some new physics anomaly than you need the measurement to be above all possible noise and error. COP tells you nothing about that because high COP at low power levels, or for short times, will not be so. Where you are making an industrially useful energy production device you need relaibility, stability, and (for engineering convenience) COP of at least 1.3 or so. Given the input to these claimed LENR devices is nearly always heat (if you need electric or magnetic fields they can be added up to much larger amounts than possible in Rossi's reactors at a very low power budget with the correct coils and circuits) transforming COP is just a matter of the correct adaptive cooling and good insulation. The payback is so very large that a lot of effort can be put into this process.


    So, your suggestion that IH are deliberately not paying when they have working devices does not make sense.

  • I think IH will be involved for the longer term, and they want to make sure that AR no longer poses any threat to them.

    But IH have no more the rights to use that technology. For sure they want it for free and they would like to destroy Rossi but I'm also quite sure that there are other more honest industries that will buy The ECAT technology.

  • Sifferkoll, I am a professional. I'm a professional researcher (in a different field). In my day job, I make observations, develop experimental proposals with specific aims, submit them for funding, get funding, execute the agreed upon plan to accomplish the specific aims, analyze the data, write up the results and submit them to peer reviewed journals. I also review other submissions from my peers. All of my income comes from grant-funded research. Since you have been away, you may have missed that I have explicitly stated that I have no financial relationship with anyone in the energy production field of any kind, and specifically not with IH, Rossi or anyone else.


    I've seen other's comment about your connection to Hydro Fusion on various blogs. I have been following the Rossi saga for 9 years. Before I started the work I do now, I worked as an electrical engineer.


    I have spent time contributing to this discussion, and I try to base the discussion on information, as I don't find 'food fights' particularly informative. Having informative discussions takes a lot of work.


    I find your unfounded allegation that I'm being paid for this work insulting. I'll let the moderators decide if your insinuation is consistent with the goals of this blog.

  • sigmoidal , just give the word and sifferkoll is gone for good. Feel free to message me at any time. (For those who may be wondering about the harshness of this, sifferkoll has a history here.)


    If this puts you in an awkward position, I'm also keeping close tabs on things and will take action myself if things cross over a (hard-to-predict) line.

  • Inventor of what?


    I struggle to find anything of value that he has ever invented? Of course I maybe incorrect here, so please advise me of any/all inventions that have provided value to someone.


    Well, I was leaving the answer to 'inventor of what' as an 'exercise to the reader'.


    From this most recent saga, we know that Rossi invented a 'customer', he invented a connection of the 'customer' to Johnson Mathey, he invented a shipping container device on the 'customer' side for 'cooking platinum sponge'...


    In previous years Rossi claims to have invented a thermoelectric device with 10X the efficiency of any known thermoelectric device and sold this 'invention' to the US military. Unfortunately, his 'factory' burned down, though, and rather than redevelop this amazing technology or make good on his contract, he decided to move on.


    I could go on, but as I say, I had left that as an exercise for the reader.

  • Sorry, I was asking you a question in response to your comment. You claimed that Rossi has been 'terrorized' for his 'achievements'. I'm asking how you think he was 'terrorized' and for what 'achievements'. That's not 'my side', it's 'your side'.


    Again, care to clarify?


    I do not think it is necessary. Since I know you've done your homework. But yes, I do believe there has been a semi-coordinated (it could be worse) effort to discredit Rossi and LENR general (which has been going on since F&P). Mainly because he has properties that are not "controllable" and had too much success.


    I'm not sure about IH's position in this story; they could be part of it or maybe they are only semi-intelligent VC investors with poor due diligence and/or people skills. Or... There is something scary about them vacuuming the market for all LENR IP and recruiting the whole community in one entity on NDA.


    I do believe BIG interests are watching and probably acting to keep the disruptive effects on the geopolitical situation etc. I do believe they would prefer a controlled 10y roll out plan. I am pretty confident that Apco and JD are clues here, since they are used to this business more than most...

  • 228-02 : Filed by IH -- Declaration by Uzi Shaya (the israeli connection) ... that he never threatened Levi, but offered him work

    This is simply ridiculous ! Why they needed to contact IH (even with a hidden mean) to contact Levi ? Levi contact are public.

    And also.... Israel is full of brilliant minds (the real Silicon Valley is there) why IH had to suggest Levi after they spent more then two years sayin that Levi is incompetent !

    If Levi is so competent, so unique and so brilliant then the Lugano test is valid.


    The only reasonable motivation for IH to send this Uzi to contact Levi is that they ware attempting to obtain some declaration against Lugano, eventually bribing him.

  • Quote

    I find your unfounded allegation that I'm being paid for this work
    insulting. I'll let the moderators decide if your insinuation is
    consistent with the goals of this blog.


    I didn't think they were that unfounded since I backed them up with indications; ie the jan28th entry timeline.

  • sigmoidal , just give the word and sifferkoll is gone for good. Feel free to message me at any time. (For those who may be wondering about the harshness of this, sifferkoll has a history here.)


    If this puts you in an awkward position, I'm also keeping close tabs on things and will take action myself if things cross over a (hard-to-predict) line.


    Maybe you could enlighten me on what "history" I'm being accused of having, more than the wrong bias?