BTW IHFB, my post was a copy/paste. Not my words. Care to comment?
Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]
- barty
- Closed
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I'm trying hard to assume that you're not trolling. It is difficult to remain generous.
The only other view that even remotely shows those two left panes as having a reflection is the cloud/steam shot.
I'll include P.'s photo again here:
No reflection. Unlikely to be open windows.
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Alan previously posted this quote from Rossi, which comes from the JONP:
QuoteDisplay MoreAndrea Rossi
Oystein Lande:
1. the container itself was not insulated, because this would have been useless, since all the hot bodies inside the container were thermally insulated
2. The doors were open during the operation and there was a ventilation system that sent the warm air through the exhaust windows of the roof of the factory
Besides: you correctly write that if the 1% of the heat produced was lost through the insulation, 10 thermal kW were emitted.
As you well know, just to give an example that explains which amount of energy we are talking of and as any household knows, 10 kW of power are barely enough to maintain during a mild winter a temperature of 25 °C in a two rooms apartment with close windows.
A 2 rooms apartment has a volume of about 200 cubic meters.
We were in a factory with windows in the roof always open; by the way, as you know, warm air goes naturally toward the top being lighter than air colder than it; the volume of the factory is 6 000 cubic meters which means about 30 times the volume of a two rooms apartment.
Now: if 10 kW of power are able to hold a 2 rooms apartment of 200 cubic meters at 22°C with closed windows, how much are able the same to heat a factory of 6 000 cubic meters with open windows on the roof and a ventilation system to exhaust it ? Obviously the temperature was warmer inside the reactors container, in fact I told you that there were about 40 °C, but, due to the fact that the doors of the container were open and that also inside the container there was a ventilation system, the internal temperature of the reactors container never is gone above the 40 °C.
Warm Regards,
A.R.In this post, I expressed serious reservations about the apparent inconsistency between Rossi's statement about the ventilation in the quote, and his deposition testimony.
In light of the clear absence of the two left window panes in the window in question, I went back and reviewed my serious reservations about the ventilation. I would now like to retract those.
In the quote from the JONP, Rossi was referring only to the heat lost through the insulation, and what would happen with that heat, which would be exhausted through the roof ventilation system.
This takes nothing away from the possible heat exchanger in the mezzanine, and the discussion had nothing to do with how most of the heat from the plant was being exhausted from the building.
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@Eric
Not trolling. I think this is a salient issue that needs to be explored in close detail because of Smith's attempt to misdirect away from the two missing panes.
I didn't say that there weren't any other shots that did not show reflection. To the contrary, showing a view of the window that doesn't show a reflection does not bolster your position. It bolsters mine.
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@Eric
Not trolling. I think this is a salient issue that needs to be explored in close detail because of Smith's attempt to misdirect away from the two missing panes.
I didn't say that there weren't any other shots that did not show reflection. To the contrary, showing a view of the window that doesn't show a reflection does not bolster your position. It bolsters mine.
Regarding your last two quoted sentences, how so?
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Regarding your last two quoted sentences, how so?
The only way to effectively refute my position is to show views in which a reflection is present in the left two panes of the window. Showing views in which no reflection is present does not further your objectives. The best shot we have is from the Smith report, and it clearly shows two reflective panes on the right, and no panes on the left of that window. The only shot that you have that might show a reflection in the left two panes is the cloud/steam one. I provided another possible candidate for you above, but as I pointed out, it looks more like equipment behind the screen.
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Smith says the external photos were by Murray, who was looking for evidence.
Totally missing :
Any photos by Rossi of the "heat exchanger", or even identifying WHICH window was used.
Any photos by Rossi indicating how the steam got from the black box to the mezzanine. There's no indication of any place a pipe could exit from the "serpentine", never mind the black box.
Wong calculates (off by 10x?) 50,000 m^3 /hr, through a 3.8 m^2 window. That's 13km/hr or 8 mph.
Beaufort scale : 8-12 mph : Gentle Breeze -- Leaves and small twigs moveThat probably eliminates the window hidden by a tree in Smith/Murray's external picture.
Would Murray really miss the open window? News of the "heat exchanger" was only sprung on him just before his deposition, so maybe he wan't looking suspiciously at the front.10x : 80 mph : 55-63 mph : Trees are broken or uprooted : Very hard to miss
Missing:
IH infra-red reports, alluded to by Jed.
Strange :
Why is Rossi's phone number on the wall in the mezzanine?
Even at this stage, are we only seeing the tip of the iceberg?
Edit : Wong on the windows : 284-2 pacer p 9
QuoteDisplay MoreQ. A-2. So you're saying out of A-2 --
8 A. The two bottom holes were occupied by the
9 two fans.
10 Q. And let's clarify a little bit.
11 You called them "holes." Those
12 are frames.
13 A. Frames.
14 Q. This is frames. These are window panes,
15 correct?
16 A. It's not panes. When I was there, it was
17 empty. There were two workmen by the site here.
18 Q. Okay. There was no glass in these?
19 A. No.
20 Q. There was no glass in any of these four?
21 A. No.
22 Q. I'm sorry. Exhibit A-2 shows four squares
23 for a window, and you're saying there was no glass
24 in any of the four squares? Okay.
25 A. Yes.Wong's visit was Feb 10, 2017.
Edit: Wong's picture of the window (with ALL panes missing) is the one with a palm tree just to its right (looking out).
Of course, that WOULD be the one hidden by the tree in Smith/Murray's picture (palm tree to the left of the bushy tree, looking in)! -
Smith says the external photos were by Murray, who was looking for evidence.
Totally missing :
Any photos by Rossi of the "heat exchanger", or even identifying WHICH window was used.
Any photos by Rossi indicating how the steam got from the black box to the mezzanine. There's no indication of any place a pipe could exit from the "serpentine", never mind the black box.
Yes, these mysteries remain. But at the rate that the crowd (including prominently yourself) are solving them, it won't be long before we all have a better understanding of the remaining unexplained issues.
QuoteDisplay MoreWong calculates (off by 10x?) 50,000 m^3 /hr, through a 3.8 m^2 window. That's 13km/hr or 8 mph.
Beaufort scale : 8-12 mph : Gentle Breeze -- Leaves and small twigs moveThat probably eliminates the window hidden by a tree in Smith/Murray's external picture.
Would Murray really miss the open window? News of the "heat exchanger" was only sprung on him just before his deposition, so maybe he wan't looking suspiciously at the front.10x : 80 mph : 55-63 mph : Trees are broken or uprooted : Very hard to miss
How did you surmise from Wong's deposition that the window behind the tree was used? Wong mentions that two bottom "holes" were the ones occupied by fans, but based on the Smith photograph, it is more likely that the two left sections of the window were used for venting, and that Wong misspoke or didn't really know--he seems kind of confused about the whole discussion about "holes" in the outside wall.
QuoteMissing:
IH infra-red reports, alluded to by Jed.
Dewey claimed someone from IH took some infrared I believe of the roof, but then he mentioned later that they were not able to get it into evidence (no additional explanation as to why, or whether we will see it later during trial).
QuoteStrange :
Why is Rossi's phone number on the wall in the mezzanine?
Beats me. Although I suppose Rossi would want Bass or whoever else went up there to contact him quickly with any problems.
QuoteEven at this stage, are we only seeing the tip of the iceberg?
Quite likely, yes.
QuoteDisplay MoreEdit : Wong on the windows : 284-2 pacer p 9
Wong's visit was Feb 10, 2017.
Edit: Wong's picture of the window (with ALL panes missing) is the one with a palm tree just to its right (looking out).
Of course, that WOULD be the one hidden by the tree in Smith/Murray's picture (palm tree to the left of the bushy tree, looking in)!I'm not understanding how you came to the conclusion that it is the one on the right. Rossi was shown the picture of the two men standing next to the window during his deposition, and that is where Rossi testified that the window used for venting was the middle one.
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The only way to effectively refute my position is to show views in which a reflection is present in the left two panes of the window. Showing views in which no reflection is present does not further your objectives. The best shot we have is from the Smith report, and it clearly shows two reflective panes on the right, and no panes on the left of that window. The only shot that you have that might show a reflection in the left two panes is the cloud/steam one. I provided another possible candidate for you above, but as I pointed out, it looks more like equipment behind the screen.
No, the best shot we have is from the April 2015 Google Streetview pic that Paradigmnoia found that was taken from the far side of the street, apparently later in the day. It clearly shows that there is glass in all panes of that middle window (the one that Wong and Rossi testified was the place where the hot air from the heat exchanger was vented):
Here is the pic that Eric posted via Para, followed by a cropped pic where you can clearly see the reflection in the windows (best to zoom in on your screen). The dark shapes are trees, and the lighter colored part is presumably the sky being reflected. You will notice three dark sort of rectangular shapes on top of the lower left pane under the white border. That is the reflection of leaves from a tree branch, presumably from the leafy green tree in the foreground that has the wires running through it. (I posted this on ECW and somebody said it was odd that there were only reflections in that window. But if you go to the google streetview link and take click down the street (to the right) to 7857, you will see that the same window at that address also has a reflection. I'd say Rossi's goose is cooked.)
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Anyways.... I already posted the Street View of the panorama of the trees across the street, the same trees that are visible through the Wong window picture (with the glass truck), where you can turn around 180 degrees and look right at the reflecting window, ....with the palm tree in the circle of landscape rocks between parking spaces, .....JM on the front door, and also the birds eye aerial view showing all the same features, with the sight line to the palm tree..., the middle window, above-the-entrance 6 pane window (with orange garbage bag on the inside, Wong photo of windows and worker) with lines and markups...
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Don't make me dig out the reflection of the so-called 'vent' window, reflected on the windshield of a red car parked the left JMP front parking spot, captured in an air photo.
Too bad the most recent air photos are from Feb 11, 2016. Two days earlier and they would have been fun for 10 more pages of posts.
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You see leaves in that? Talk about seeing what you want to see! But I admit, this is the best (and actually the only) view that shows what might appear to be a reflection in the two left panes. I've gone up and down that street from both lanes, and there is no other shot that shows anything like a reflection in the left two panes. The second best one I posted up above (probably a couple of pages back by now), although the second best one looks more like equipment behind the screen.
Here is the second best one (i.e., best for IH hopefuls):
Rossi vs. Darden developments - Part 2
(See last picture in that post.)
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Display More
I'm trying hard to assume that you're not trolling. It is difficult to remain generous.
I'll include P.'s photo again here:
No reflection. Unlikely to be open windows.
Before anyone gets too crazy about that non-reflecting window I posted, it is from a different unit in the same building, which was almost certainly not missing glass panes, since they reflect in other angles as well, as one moves down the street view. It is the second unit from the other end of the same complex.
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You see leaves in that? Talk about seeing what you want to see!
No, actually I did not want to see leaves in that. At first I had convinced myself that I could see the outline there of something behind the window, presumably the outlines of the alleged heat exchanger. But I was on my phone Later I looked at it on my computer screen and zoomed in, and it became clear and obvious what it really is: the reflection of the clouds framed by the shadow of trees, leaves and branches. In any case, even if you don't buy that those rectangular shapes are tree leaves, you can also see the shadowy reflection of a palm tree that runs up the entire left side of the window, reflected in both of the panes that appear to be missing in Smith's photo taken later in November.
And it doesn't matter if this is the only picture that clearly shows a reflection on all four panes. That doesn't discount the evidence. One picture is worth a thousand words, or in this case, a thousand forum posts. At this moment, this piece of evidence looks devastating to Rossi's case. It is something that any person sitting on a jury can see as unambiguously demolishing Rossi's claims and credibility. I don't see how it can be explained away, but of course I suppose it's always possible.
Here is a reflection of the similar window one door down at 7857. It's not Rossi's property, but it shows you that a similarly positioned window (middle window, second floor) at a similar angle to the google streetview camera were showing reflections:
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Here is a reflection of the similar window one door down at 7857. It's not Rossi's property, but it shows you that a similarly positioned window (middle window, second floor) at a similar angle to the google streetview camera were showing reflections:
I'm glad you posted that one from one door down, because it demonstrates how different all of the other windows that do have reflections look. The one (and only) photo that shows something like a reflection in the two left panes of the window at issue is special. And will have a special place in this saga for many years to come I am sure of it.
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Wong window or wight window?
This is exhibit A-2 :
This is Wong's deposition : 284-2 pacer p 9
Q. A-2. So you're saying out of A-2 --
8 A. The two bottom holes were occupied by the9 two fans.
10 Q. And let's clarify a little bit.
11 You called them "holes." Those
12 are frames.
13 A. Frames.
14 Q. This is frames. These are window panes,15 correct?
16 A. It's not panes. When I was there, it was
17 empty. There were two workmen by the site here.
18 Q. Okay. There was no glass in these?19 A. No.
20 Q. There was no glass in any of these four?
21 A. l
22 Q. I'm sorry. Exhibit A-2 shows four squares
23 for a window, and you're saying there was no glass
24 in any of the four squares? Okay.
25 A. Yes.
Here's a gmap ... I think I've changed my mind, because the A-2 "window" (red) looks directly onto the "Island" (blue), and with the palm tree to the right.
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The one (and only) photo that shows something like a reflection in the two left panes of the window at issue is special.
Could you please clarify what you think is special about it?
Also, if I follow the implications of what you're saying, it means that the google street view image of Rossi's window was edited/altered after it was taken to show a reflection, when in fact there should have been none in the left two panes. Is that your position? I won't call you crazy for suggesting such a thing, since I don't think we can rule it out 100%. As Bob Greenyer has said, "We cannot underestimate the forces aligned against" LENR. Nevertheless this strikes me as a rather far-fetched proposition, one that I myself am not comfortable accepting at the moment. But perhaps I'm putting words in your mouth.
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