Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

I am slowly feeding in the the COP (to ultimately derive L water daily) from the 236-43 data.

Sooooo hilarious.... July 1 has double the water/COP, for example.....

Quote from THHuxleynew

Anyone know why ele has not yet replied to my question about the heat exchanger calculations he/she seemed interested in? You get the impression from his/her posts that he/she is technically competent, but careful avoidance of real tech questions is for me a warning sign.

It is a warning sign possibly indicating that the arguments are only designed to fool those who can be easily fooled. It is an approach eerily similar to others who came and went here in the past (with more interesting profile pics). As it is, ele attracts little attention.

Quote from THHuxleynew

Could you define mocking parade?

I accept that Darden works for both Cherokee and IH, and that Cherokee have invested in IH. As have Woodward.

Would you like to answer my point about external research companies? Without such restrictions, how could IH validate LENR technology? It is far from what you interpret, and sort of necessary for anyone except Rossi who does not validate technology.

When you boil it down Rossi's invention of a few shell entities, including JMP, doesn't hold a candle to IH and Darden and their own many levels of flim flam. Yet when Rossi does it a single time with the so called "customer" he is branded a fake and a charlatan. In my view he was simply imitating his partner.

Quote from JedRothwell

They did perform both long-term and short term tests, on several devices, with Rossi's help. None of them worked.

They don't get to claim they worked and then decide they didn't after all, as soon as Rossi files suit.

Quote from JedRothwell

None of the other tests worked. They were done by people who know more about calorimetry and LENR than Rossi does, or than you do.

That's good to know because all of the contemporaneous written evidence we have of tests performed by IH show successful replications upwards of COP 9. I'm glad these were performed by people having a firm grasp of calorimetry and LENR.

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Heck, you don't even understand that water boils at different temperatures depending on pressure.

And you draw this conclusion from what may I ask? It seems you might be embarrassed about the pipe dimension FUD, upon which your pressure FUD was built.

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That's elementary school science and you got it wrong.

With all due respect, you got it wrong.

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You won't admit that, ...

And neither will you.

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and of course you will not discuss any technical details or try to show an error in the Smith report.

Except for pointing out his error about the maximum pump rates (the heart of his criticism) and his drawing big bold red arrows to everything except the two missing panes in the window of interest. I don't think those are non-errors in any case. He also draws a questionable schematic with no physical proof or photographs to back up each of his supposed physical connections.

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Just because you are ignorant and you dance around and evade the issues, that does not make you right.

Now this attack is pretty funny. I don't know anyone else here (besides you) that has ever accused me of not tackling the central issues head-on. If my analysis is cutting and makes you feel uncomfortable, even to the point of you sometimes behaving in a childish manner, then I suppose it must be accomplishing something. Maybe you could confirm for us whether you were in the past, or are now, an advisor for IH? Don't you think that is something this community should be entitled to know, given your zealous advocacy here for IH?

Quote from IH Fanboy

I don't know anyone else here (besides you) that has ever accused me of not tackling the central issues head-on. If my analysis is cutting and makes you feel uncomfortable, even to the point of you sometimes behaving in a childish manner, then I suppose it must be accomplishing something.

How about tackling why Rossi as JMP dictated and sent IH invoice requests with energy amounts that hugely vary from the ERV energy for the same month?

Or how JMP could measure the energy recieved at all? Bass said they had no way to measure the energy sent from the plant, while Rossi claimed JMP had their own meters and temperature probes.

PREDICTION

The Document 260 has a magic word in it: VERDICT.

This will change a lot.

Just now, the inhabitants of the two planets: ANTI-ROSSI

and respective, PRO-ROSSI TECHNOLOGY are separated

by a broad, infinitely deep precipice.

Only after the verdict they will start to go, with small steps

toward the other party- but no bridge will be built because the moral historical responsibility is too great and irrevesible

no peace possible between the "mentally deficient supporters of a scammer" and the "corrupt killers in spe of a great energy technology"

^{History of technology will give the final VERDICT.}

Peter

Quote from Bob

If you would read the documents, you would see IH memos dated in 2015 stating that they could not get the reactors to work. Earlier memos stated possible excess heat, but those memos also stated that they were not conclusive and needed confirmation. Later testing (before 2016) showed measurement errors and were documented by IH. Read the court documents yourself!

This "reactors worked until the lawsuit" is unfounded and forum fodder.

Following similar logic, I could state that Rossi cannot propose a sale of heat and rental of the plant to a customer for 3 years, sign a contract stating the same and then a year later state it was the GPT after he files the lawsuit! It would be the same logic.

Actually IH denied the Doral event was the GPT and reactors did not work in December of 2015. Rossi had his lawyers writing letters in Dec. 2015. So your point is in groundless based upon submitted court evidence.

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Sure it was fake, tongue in cheek, say no more-say no more. If it was fake then it was one of the most transparent and obvious attempts at fakery one could ever imagine, one that would take an idiot to come up with, and Rossi is anything but an idiot. I don't believe it was ever meant to hide much of anything from anyone, including IH. From reading hours and hours of depositions I've come to the conclusion that Rossi originally hoped to bring Johnson Mathey (the real one) on board as a customer.

For whatever reasons that negotiation failed, so to preserve the structure, of what he clearly believed was the GPT, he left the customer configuration in place and proceeded to run it himself. He was hoping not only to satisfy the performance aspect, but also to prove to the public at large that his invention had a practical side. Rossi has learned a lot over the years and probably thought he was playing the shell company game similar to what IH has and went through his various pantomimes and gyrations in pursuit of that. There are indications he hoped even then to produce a product he could then market to JM after the fact, during the test and even beyond to perhaps an additional 2 years.

Besides, all that is completely irrelevant to the terms of the agreement and has nothing to do with whether Rossi should receive the balance of the payment. That depends only on whether he actually produced a COP of either 4 or 6, or greater, depending on interpretation of the contract, and that in turn depends on the CRV information and whether it is correct or corrupted in some undecipherable way. Despite what most who post on this forum would like us to believe, I think the Jury (pun intended) is still out on that. The fact is I believe he met that threshold with room to spare, but may be undone by the way the data was measured and reported. I guess we'll have to wait and see in that regard. One thing I do believe is that the average Jury, during a two week trial, is never going to be able to digest one tenth of the information most of us here have taken in, so a lot of the outcome is going to be governed by the respective attorneys skill in simplifying and condensing it all down to something the Jury can process.

Me not so much, but my wife is an excellent judge of character, she is seldom wrong in that regard. She has been a Juror in a number of cases, both criminal and civil, and says for her it always boiled down to whether the key witnesses were sincere and believable, or not. Not dependent on information, but on gut feeling towards their honesty and sincerity. I believe Rossi is heads up the winner in that regard, and so does she.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

How about tackling why Rossi as JMP dictated and sent IH invoice requests with energy amounts that hugely vary from the ERV energy for the same month?

Or how JMP could measure the energy recieved at all? Bass said they had no way to measure the energy sent from the plant, while Rossi claimed JMP had their own meters and temperature probes.

You see that's the whole nutshell here. It all boils down to he said- she said, or what this expert witness said and what that expert witness said. The Jury's decision all boils down to what it believes out of all this, and what it ends up believing will have little enough to do with who is right or wrong or most believable. What it will have to do with is which side is more adept at presenting a version of events condensed enough so that the Jury doesn't fall asleep or lose interest. After that it falls specifically on the perceived credibility of any witnesses. Not credentials, but the perceived sincerity of those same witnesses, two completely different things.

Quote from Rionrlty

Could you define mocking parade?

I accept that Darden works for both Cherokee and IH, and that Cherokee have invested in IH. As have Woodward.

Would you like to answer my point about external research companies? Without such restrictions, how could IH validate LENR technology? It is far from what you interpret, and sort of necessary for anyone except Rossi who does not validate technology.

When you boil it down Rossi's invention of a few shell entities, including JMP, doesn't hold a candle to IH and Darden and their own many levels of flim flam. Yet when Rossi does it a single time with the so called "customer" he is branded a fake and a charlatan. In my view he was simply imitating his partner.

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So: let us examine your comparison. Rossi directly lied about the identity of the customer. He pretended it was a large company doing real production - which would without doubt have validated his heat production and assured IH that indeed Rossi technology works - something you will remember they were doubting - with good reason. He elaborated the pretence instructing co-workers (both employed by him) do go round the outside of the building when moving between the Leonardo and JMP sides of the warehouse, instead of going through the connecting door. As a result of this pretence IH agreed to let him to a 1MW customer-based test, that he then claimed was the GPT and demanded $89M for.

IH levels of flim-flam? All you have shown so far as:

(1) shell company to avoid tax - possibly created at Woodward's insistence since they are Uk-based

(2) The principal is a highly successful VC. I'm not sure that is any more relevant than the fact that his colleague (also a VC) is a committed Christian. I take back what I said about Cherokee investing in IH. I think the "we" in your quote was personal money from Darden and Vaughn. Since Darden controls and owns Cherokee the distinction is somewhat moot, but not entirely, since he would risk personal money where it might be improper for him to risk that of Cherokee's.

No self-serving lies. No fraudulent misrepresentation. Not even any lies.

You have not yet taken back your snarky and incorrect comment about NDAs with external research companies indicating IH's desire to suppress LENR - you need to admit you were wrong there, or explain how else IH should validate its technology in a manner that is believable to its investors.

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Sure it was fake, tongue in cheek, say no more-say no more. If it was fake then it was one of the most transparent and obvious attempts at fakery one could ever imagine, one that would take an idiot to come up with, and Rossi is anything but an idiot.

That remark encapsulates how Rossi manages to snare many people.

Yes, it was a transparent fake, but one that somone hoping his devices really did work would believe - at least at the contract stage when it mattered.

Rossi's fakery is crude - sock puppets on JONP, mismeasuring RMS versus average volts and amps, pretending that wet steam is dry, persuading 6 scientists to believe an incorrect IR measurement method when anyone could see from the colour of the reactor that it was much cooler than calculated, claiming fake customers and factories for a quarkx with input and output power calculation faked, claiming to have made a probably non-existent heat exchanger that is switched on by removing individual panes of glass within a window casement on days when it is needed and replacing the glass panes within the casement when google cameras drive by.

Rossi, you argue, is clever and therefore if he were going to fake things he would do it more cleverly - not in this fake manner - so you believe him. I'm not sure you realise how many levels of logical error are encapsulated in this argument?

What I will acknowledge is that Rossi's character is most extraordinary and continues to surprise, horrify, and amuse even seasoned Rossi-watchers. He is highly inventive, and brazen.

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You see that's the whole nutshell here. It all boils down to he said- she said, or what this expert witness said and what that expert witness said. The Jury's decision all boils down to what it believes out of all this, and what it ends up believing will have little enough to do with who is right or wrong or most believable.

That is like most of life - judgment of people. My guess is you misjudge Rossi because not being technical yourself you can see him as some sort of technical genius with flawed character - a view that goes with a weird idea about technical types. Similarly with expert witnesses, you need enough technical expertise to detect when what they say is clearly avoiding the issue (Wong, with his one-size-fits-all heat transfer coefficient for his approximation). You don't have that. But I would not want to buy a house from you if your judgment of the honesty of the sellers was made in the same way as you judge Rossi...

Quote from THHuxleynew

Anyone know why ele has not yet replied to my question about the heat exchanger calculations he/she seemed interested in?

I reckon he/she has been playing tennis with the wife..

Quote from Peter Gluck

PREDICTION

The Document 260 has a magic word in it: VERDICT.

This will change a lot.

Just now, the inhabitants of the two planets: ANTI-ROSSI

and respective, PRO-ROSSI TECHNOLOGY are separated

by a broad, infinitely deep precipice.

Only after the verdict they will start to go, with small steps

toward the other party- but no bridge will be built because the moral historical responsibility is too great and irrevesible

no peace possible between the "mentally deficient supporters of a scammer" and the "corrupt killers in spe of a great energy technology"

^{History of technology will give the final VERDICT.}

Peter

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I can't see the verdict will alter matters. Rossi supporters have had a meme that it is all fixed by big business interests against Rossi. They will call the Judge and Jury hoodwinked. Especially if Rossi's case is shot down at MSJ time, as seems very likley, they will not accept it. The evidence of Rossi's direct fabrications, all over this lawsuit, has moved a few thinkers away but the hard core of believers will continue to believe.

Quote from Zeus46

Possibly he/she has been playing tennis with the wife..

That would be difficult for me since this Easter my wife and I are both away from home in different countries, and indeed home has been a building site nightmare for a month!

But Ele has this habit here of sounding authoritative, making grand statements, and waltzing off without answering the technical details. I would not think that necessary except that he/she criticises the technical work presented here...

Quote from THHuxleynew

No self-serving lies. No fraudulent misrepresentation. Not even any lies.

Dear Mr. Huxley,

The lies are not (that) evident in what is being stated by IH (or its affiliates), they surface, and please forgive me for the the somewhat dramatic metaphors, like turds in a "look at how transparent and professional we are" jacuzzi of hypocrisy, through what IH (or its affiliates) do not say.

Inviting Woodford and the Chinese (amongst others) to something that in a later stage is labelled as a scam?

That implicitly makes our "i can't remember, because i want to say as little as possible", committed Christian Thomas Darden an accomplice, or worse, a hypocrite of the worst kind. There are no other options.

From Rossi one can expect every trick imaginable to bring HIS technology to the masses. Nolens volens. That is what he is supposed to do. As a bona fide inventor with a gut lined with tiger fur, or, and i do not believe this is the case, as a scammer.

It is hard to state what the objectives in Darden's murky playbook are. Let's leave it at that as a bona fide investor it is not advisable to invest in scammers.

Cheers,

JB

Quote from we_cat_global

Dear Mr. Huxley,

The lies are not (that) evident in what is being stated by IH (or its affiliates), they surface, and please forgive me for the the somewhat dramatic metaphors, like turds in a "look at how transparent and professional we are" jacuzzi of hypocrisy, through what IH (or its affiliates) do not say.

Inviting Woodford and the Chinese (amongst others) to something that in a later stage is labelled as a scam?

That implicitly makes our "i can't remember, because i want to say as little as possible", committed Christian Thomas Darden an accomplice, or worse, a hypocrite of the worst kind. There are no other options.

From Rossi one can expect every trick imaginable to bring HIS technology to the masses. Nolens volens. That is what he is supposed to do. As a bona fide inventor with a gut lined with tiger fur, or, and i do not believe this is the case, as a scammer.

It is hard to state what the objectives in Darden's murky playbook are. Let's leave it at that as a bona fide investor it is not advisable to invest in scammers.

Cheers,

JB

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BTW I believe (may be wrong) that Vaughn is the committed Christian, not that this is relevant to anything except as consistent with Darden's claims that the motivation for IH is partly social reponsibility.

So: your view is that however fraudulent Rossi is that is justified if in service of bringing his device to the masses.

There are several problems with that:

• How about if Rossi's fraud includes getting loads of people like you to believe his device works when it does not?
• You seem to think that massive investment from IH contingent only on showing independently that his stuff works is not the best way to do that? How could Rossi as a one-man (or two-man, with Fabione) band possibly do the commercialisation? And IH seem to have been more generous with terms than most.
• You argue that even possibly criminal means are justified by the ends. That is seldom a good route to go down.

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Inviting Woodford and the Chinese (amongst others) to something that in a later stage is labelled as a scam? That implicitly makes our "i can't remember, because i want to say as little as possible", committed Christian Thomas Darden an accomplice, or worse, a hypocrite of the worst kind. There are no other options.

That is incorrect. And shows a lack of understanding of how VC investments are made on basis of risk and very high risks may be tolerated for possible very high rewards, such as would have been the case if Rossi's reactors worked as claimed by the 6 Lugano profs. The very high risk part of the Woodford money going to Rossi would have been 20% of the total IH investment from Woodford. Possibly, in this action, they will get some of it back... Actually, investing in LENR is high risk anyway, but that judgement is another matter, and scientific. There can be quite a variation in how VCs respond to any non-mainstream science-based opportunity based on whom are their scientific advisors.

Regards, THH

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/….Huxley(Woodburytype).jpg

Early on in this game I emailed the Woodford lot (I own a very few units in the Woodford Patient Capital Trust) to ask what they thought of the shenanigans around Rossi. As expected the spokescritter told me that a) due diligence was done and b) that the investment was not solely about LENR, but about a whole bundle of stuff that might or might not come good in time. The Patient Capital Trust has a whole portfolio of investments in early-stage companies. Neil Woodford will no doubt be annoyed and take action if he feels that he has been defrauded and/or that Vaughan, Darden et al told him a pack of lies - I think we can safely leave that decision to him, since he has a fiduciary duty to his investors.

As a unit-holder in the trust, I am showing a small profit; but I've always regarded it as a long-term punt. Furthermore, I never invest money I can't afford to lose in this sort of speculative venture and I'd bet that all investors in WPCT are of the same mind