Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    that refers to Rossi's test results not the (potential) real validation from an external customer

    Sorry, not biting. They knew well in advance that the 'external' customer that was a shell company set up by Rossi's attorney with a production process controlled by Rossi. They tell us he assured them it was Johnson Matthey, but I am frankly skeptical that Darden and Vaughn are that gullible. Again, something stinks. I also note that there is nothing in writing that corroborates their statement that Rossi told them it was Johnson Matthey. Also, Rossi allegedly told them that the customer would 'go public' 90 days into the test if they were getting positive results. So when that happened, they should have known something was wrong with the customer. By that point they had Woodford's money, but they were still bringing in potential investors AT LEAST as late as August.


    But I won't let you take my eyes off the ball, because you still haven't answered my central question: did Darden et al. mislead Woodford by failing to disclose all of their misgivings and doubts about the test? I provided evidence that they did not provide full disclosure. All I've heard in response is: "that wouldn't be logical." I can give you a bunch of examples of IH acting illogically, so that's hardly an iron-clad defense.

    So, given that Rossi's technology was a core element of Woodford's initial investment, we are now supposed to believe that Darden's story about drilling out the dummy reactor in January of 2014 and showing Rossi that there was no fuel in it, even though it performed the same as all of their other reactors--is true? And that after proving the e-Cat didn't work in this manner, IH needed to hire a bunch of "real" experts to tell them that the e-Cat didn't work? And that despite knowing that the e-Cat didn't work (because what better evidence than having a dummy reactor that performs like the rest of them) they proceeded to raise tens of millions from Woodford?


    Either joshg is right or Darden is blowing smoke on the dummy reactor story.

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    Compare that with the principals of a large VC, and one of the biggest ever worldwide Investment Trusts, conspiring to deceive investors...

    No, again, that's not what I was saying. The scenario I speculated on was that they were both conspiring to take advantage of an inventor they had invested in and whose IP they had partly acquired. In that scenario, Woodford would have done this for the benefit of his investors, not to deceive them. That doesn't seem so far-fetched now, does it? Or do you think something like that has never happened and it simply beggars the imagination?

    Quote from WMartin

    Darden to investors: This guy is a lot harder to deal with than we thought and we're having a lot of trouble replicating his successes but we've already sunk a lot of money into it. We need to continue. Best case scenario we still get rich. Worst case scenario, we prove we don't need to look at this method of LENR anymore. Also, by continuing we can hold onto the patent in case someone gets it to work.

    Darden: After all the help and money we gave Rossi, after doing everything he wanted, he has the gall to sue us for his failure to transfer the technology to us??? Fine, pay back is a B***h! We'll make sure he never gets anyone to support him again!


    If I felt like it, I could do the same thing from Rossi's point of view but someone else can do that if they feel like it. My whole point is that the world is seldom black and white.


    Your scenario here is very plausible, I agree. It is only just different from IH's stated position - in the I need to continue bit. Whereas IH are saying - well - we have bought that IP fair and square and we will not give it up for nothing because even though with Rossi's stuff not working it is probably not worth anything you never know.


    I think the understanding people view from the Rossi side is a lot more interesting, if you want to do it. I'm not sure I do understand Rossi.

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    So, given that Rossi's technology was a core element of Woodford's initial investment, we are now supposed to believe that Darden's story about drilling out the dummy reactor in January of 2014 and showing Rossi that there was no fuel in it, even though it performed the same as all of their other reactors--is true? And that after proving the e-Cat didn't work in this manner, IH needed to hire a bunch of "real" experts to tell them that the e-Cat didn't work? And that despite knowing that the e-Cat didn't work (because what better evidence than having a dummy reactor that performs like the rest of them) they proceeded to raise tens of millions from Woodford?


    Either joshg is right or Darden is blowing smoke on the dummy reactor story.


    That does not prove the e-cat does not work. It proves that a test protocol Rossi and Fabiani were using did not work, and that one specific e-cat they were given did not work during that test. Do they extrapolate from that to the independent prof-backed test results not working? Would you?


    I think they would end up with a big question mark, really frustrated, and want to get closure on whether Rossi's stuff worked or not. By then they had sunk in money and having made a bet it is hard to give up hope.


    The meme here which is false is that LENR devices are like light bulbs. You flick the switch and then you know whether they do or do not work. Period. Darden et al were sophisticated and cautious enough to know it is not like that, and they might be missing some critical step, or have inadvertently broken it with the wrong temperature cycling. It comes down to them not thinking their in-house technical ability better than the very prettily written-up reports from the Profs. They would at that time be in the position of following instructions and hoping it worked.


    It is ironic that all of the pseudoskeptic arguments about LENR are now being used by Planet Rossi to paint IH bad.


    Raising 10s of millions from Woodward makes much more sense if Woodward was already (with the IH principals) sniffing around LENR and wondering, as they have stated and someone here added some detail to. Rossi would have presented an opportunity of low hanging fruit too tempting to miss even if it was high risk because they knew Rossi was Rossi.

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    Your scenario here is very plausible, I agree. It is only just different from IH's stated position - in the I need to continue bit. Whereas IH are saying - well - we have bought that IP fair and square and we will not give it up for nothing because even though with Rossi's stuff not working it is probably not worth anything you never know.


    I think the understanding people view from the Rossi side is a lot more interesting, if you want to do it. I'm not sure I do understand Rossi.


    I don't have time right now to make up a story like I did with Darden but in my opinion Rossi is a paranoid who is also lying to himself. He got these early test results that looked good making him think he is the greatest inventor ever who is going to get rich and save humanity at the same time. I think he actually believes he has this awesome invention. This is why he can get others to support him because he is sincere in his belief. Then when people object to something in his experiments, the paranoia kicks in and they are now the enemy. Every action he takes must be interpreted in light of his us verses them mentality. Now his entire self worth is vested in proving himself and his invention right. Because every person who disagrees with him is the enemy, anything is justifiable in the good cause. Also, every person that confronts him makes him more of a martyr because he is being persecuted. This is why people can not work with him because their is no way to bring him back into reality. A lot of great inventors in the past have worked this way. Some succeeded in spite of it, more got destroyed because of it.

    Quote from joshg

    Sorry, not biting. They knew well in advance that the 'external' customer that was a shell company set up by Rossi's attorney with a production process controlled by Rossi. They tell us he assured them it was Johnson Matthey, but I am frankly skeptical that Darden and Vaughn are that gullible. Again, something stinks. I also note that there is nothing in writing that corroborates their statement that Rossi told them it was Johnson Matthey. Also, Rossi allegedly told them that the customer would 'go public' 90 days into the test if they were getting positive results. So when that happened, they should have known something was wrong with the customer. By that point they had Woodford's money, but they were still bringing in potential investors AT LEAST as late as August.


    We are in grey area territory here. They asked for validation of the customer, and got Johnson staking his reputation on it, with a written letter that was false. I think they would have hoped, but not been sure, or too optimistic. The reason for going along with the test, remember, was primarily to keep Rossi on-side. Rossi desperately (his testimony) wanted the test. IH still wanted Rossi's help getting his stuff to work and would do that even if there was only a 1% chance of it being real.


    Nothing in writing? Yes, there was an early draft of the Term Sheet. And Rossi went as far as to hire Bass to give out a false name card.


    But I won't let you take my eyes off the ball, because you still haven't answered my central question: did Darden et al. mislead Woodford by failing to disclose all of their misgivings and doubts about the test? I provided evidence that they did not provide full disclosure. All I've heard in response is: "that wouldn't be logical." I can give you a bunch of examples of IH acting illogically, so that's hardly an iron-clad defense.


    I don't know. You have provided no evidence that there was not full disclosure, and no evidence of illogical actions - merely actions showing technical naivetee. I reckon here we are in the same territory as a good estate agent selling a house. They want a buyer, but do not want a betrayed buyer, so will not emphasise problems unduly, and will not break the law by telling lies, or materially mislead.


    I have evidence, which you ignore, that Darden emphasised Rossi's flakiness to investors more than one of them felt was necessary. Do I expect that IH gave Woodford a precise description of every test to date? No. Exactly how positive they were would depend on how they felt about their testing. Since at that time they were technically challenged that would have been a bit variable, and depended on whether they were following Rossi/Fabiani's bad test protocols. I'm sure they would have told Woodford that their internal testing was still in process with results not clear.


    Only you, and IHFB etc, see obvious IH criminal intent in this situation. As with an estate agent, we can't be sure that they did not over-egg things. It is really between them and Woodford. Would you want to cheat somone as influential in financial markets as Woodford if you were Darden?


    If it were an estate agent maybe I'd be less pissed off with you assuming criminal intent on no evidence. In this case these guys are putting their own money into LENR research on what (to me) seems a slender hope of return. That is altruistic, possibly misguided, but nevertheless a grand cause.


    You are also slagging off the one player around now putting major money into LENR research, and who will continue to do so after this Rossi farce is over.

    conspiracy theories indeed. "Russians stole my fuel"

    Priceless...sounds like Rossi is self deluded to the point of Alex Jones type mania!

    Perhaps his defence will be he's a "performance artist".

    Seriously? They continued having faith in him after that one?

    They deserve to lose every penny if that sort of naivete towards what appears to be a man not in touch with reality is the norm.

    Those pesky Russians and their UFOs sneaking into his plant .

    Pmsl.

    in other news a dog ate my homework, then Russian aliens who are really underhand cos they're Russian, yu know? Communist Russian mars aliens ,well they abducted my homework ,stole my magic fuel for my space cat and took it to the pyramids on mars via a portal in a pizza restaurant sponsored by Hilary clinton and an international illuminati satanic sex cult and are planning world domination all because aleister Crowley and Roswell happened. Vote trump etc.

    russians ate my fuel...still reeling from that one.

    Ih:Mr Rossi your "dummy control" is producing as much heat as your experiment

    Rossi:eeeer it was Russians? In their fuzzy hats , all dressed in cossack outfits, they danced into the plant and used their hammers and sickles to steal it.

    No maybe it was Greeks, those pesky Greeks they delivered this big wooden horse, I thought nothing of it at the time when it arrived at the test site.

    Sorry the comedy mileage on this one just keeps giving...

    Those pesky foreigners and their thieving communist ways.

    Still can't stop laughing.


    Interestedpeasant You are welcome to post tosh in here, there is plenty of it already. However, if you want to post mildly amusing but otherwise totally off-topic tosh about this affair please confine your posts to the 'Playground' thread. Alan.

    Quote from Alan Smith

    Are you sure about that 'biggest ever' claim. I cant find them in this list.


    http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/15…gement-firms-of-2015.html


    Is this some kind of p***ing competition?

    Invesco has companies all over the world.

    An Invesco company is on your list at number 19 with $430 billion assets. Though I doubt they have invested a single dollar in LENR.


    From Wikipedia - Woodford in the UK ran the Invesco Perpetual Income, and Invesco Perpetual High Income funds, with respectively £10.36 billion and £13.64 billion in assets.

    From a US perspective possibly small potatoes. From a UK perspective, greatest fund manager of his generation.

    Since he became independent a few years ago he has started up some new funds worth over £11 billion.

    Quote from Alan Smith

    Are you sure about that 'biggest ever' claim. I cant find them in this list.


    http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/15…gement-firms-of-2015.html


    Woodford himself is a big deal in UK - he managed 15 billion for Invesco. But you are right, his own brand funds are relatively new. His equity income fund is 10 billion sterling. Maybe small his impact is small by worldwide scales. Certainly he does not rival Buffet.

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    @sigmoidal


    The story by Darden about the dummy reactor is fascinating to me. Not because I necessarily believe it, but because of how Darden recounts what a surprise it was to him as early as Christmas '13 or January '14 that the e-Cat didn't work in his opinion. I mean, if IH really had a dummy reactor with performance that was consistent with the non-dummy reactors, that should have been end of story, no? No further seeking of outside investment money. No further tests. They knew it was all a big hoax at that point.


    Alright, I see your point, so I'm going to give you some things to think about, but it requires that you try to put yourself in Darden's shoes, so 'lace up'!


    IH knew before they ever even signed the first contract that Rossi could be difficult. After they signed, but prior to this incident, according to their testimony, they began to learn how difficult Rossi could be. For example, they wanted to measure things in a variety of ways. Rossi called them idiots. Darden was like, "OK, I guess we're idiots, maybe this is more complicated than we thought."


    I hope we can all agree (whether you think he has LENR+ or not) that Rossi has a long track record of manipulating people and events to try to control everything.


    Then Darden, apparently through a fluke mis-interpretation of reactor numbers 6 vs. 9, discovers that a dummy reactor in North Carolina gets the same results as a charged reactor. This takes things to a whole new level, and is so alarming to Darden that since Rossi refuses to come from Florida to look at it, flies down to FL to discuss this with him. Rossi finally relents, comes back to NC and they discover together that the reactor is indeed empty.


    Darden is further alarmed by Rossi's seemingly defensive and indifferent response. Darden is not an inventor or technologist, but he has serious warning flags in his head. And he has paid Rossi $11.5 Million.


    Now, try to put yourself in Darden's shoes. The question you are presented with is: "Now what?"

    You (Darden) must be thinking:

    1) I don't feel comfortable with Rossi's indifference.

    2) This doesn't feel right, but regarding this technology, maybe Rossi is indifferent because the technology works (he sure seems to behave that way), and at least regarding this field, I might really be an idiot.

    3) I've got $11.5Million invested, multiple patent applications in the works, licensed ownership of the IP, and I knew when I went into this that Rossi might be difficult. So maybe I should stand pat.

    4) But this still seems really wrong, so how do I go about digging further without alienating difficult-to-deal-with Rossi?


    I know, I'll start really digging deeper by working my network of connections to find a big name independent tester.

    [weeks pass working the network]

    Awesome, it looks like Boeing might do it.

    [more weeks pass getting an agreement and test protocol together]

    [more weeks pass negotiating terms and scheduling for testing]


    Meanwhile, since that event, Rossi has been stewing over his 'exposed' position due to the dummy reactor. He wasn't able to show excess for performance on the 1-year test in NC, so he's working on a 'plan' (AKA 'scheme') to get IH back on board.


    [Back to Darden]

    Boeing tests the E-Cat

    [more weeks pas as Boeing prepares it's report]

    Darden gets the news that Boeing cannot detect any excess heat.


    It's now likely to be sometime between April or May, and prospects for something usable from IH's investment in Rossi is looking pretty grim.


    But wait, just when all hope seemed lost, on June 1st, 2015, Rossi sends Darden an email with an urgent proposal and a time limited offer.


    Darden has his doubts, but as he thinks it through, Johnson Mathey is perhaps the one credible organization that would both 1) have an interest in heat for a process and 2) be willing to work with 'stigmatized' LENR.


    So he figures, what do I have to lose?


    Regarding recruiting investors during this time and subsequently in Doral, I've already described why I think this is entirely reasonable: 1) portfolio (Rossi isn't their only horse in the race), 2) equity (it's not an all or nothing investment for potential investors) 3) risk (LENR isn't for everyone, but if your interested in taking on the risk, we feel that we have as good a shot as anyone at commercial viability).


    OK, you can take off Darden's shoes now, and go back to letting us know why you think this is slimey behavior by IH. ;)

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