Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

If you are all so sure Rossi is a scammer, you should not be so nervous about every person who posts in this thread with a pro-Rossi pov. Jefferson said: "When I hear another express an opinion, which is not mine, I say to myself, he has a right to his opinion, as I to mine. Why should I question it? His errors does no injury, and shall I become a Don Quixote to bring all men by force of argument to one opinion? If a fact be misstated, it is probable be gratified by a belief of it, and I have no rights to deprive him of the gratification...".

The IH story is not persuasive. None gives 10 million of dollars to obtain a mere IP "promise". IH people had their assurance by Rossi about IP and signed the agreement. How can they say they were not sure Rossi has produced excess of heat?

The Lugano test was not a trustworthy test? Really? When did IH discovery it?

I don't want to explore all topics raised by the parties. I will read the judgment.

I just note that the IH "leitmotiv" about the fact that Rossi machine didn't work is not persuasive...

But, if you think Rossi in a "scam artist" and IH are good samaritans, feel free to think it...

My idea is that experts will be listened by the jury. They will decide the case. And ERV cross examination will play a central role.

Italianlawyer

It goes without saying that people are entitled to their opinion, and you are certainly no exception.

And merely expressing your opinion with little or no evidence or explanation is also certainly your right.

Several others here have a deeper interest in Rossi's 'findings' and have spent much more time looking at the evidence supporting and refuting his findings and behaviors.

As a lawyer, you might be interested in the legal proceedings.

Even though I have a technical background as an Electrical Engineer and a researcher in an unrelated field, I am quite interested in the legal proceedings as well, despite having no formal legal training.

Here is a brief summary of Rossi's claims and IH's counterclaims. Rossi filed 8 claims against IH. These can be seen in Document 001 on the Docket here, 4 of them were dismissed by the Court. The remaining 4 claims are:

I. IH Breach of contract (for failure to pay $89 Million after successful 350-day GPT).

III. Unjust Enrichment (IH got money unjustly from investors based on successful working E-Cat)

IV. Misappropriation (IH used Rossi's licensed IP inappropriately)

VI. Fraudulent Inducement (IH fraudulently got Rossi to agree to license his IP when they never intended to pay him the $100.5 Million total.)

IH has 5 counterclaims against Rossi (and none of them were dismissed by the Court). These are in document 132, briefly summarized:

I, II, V - Breach of Contract (in various ways)

III - Fraudulent Inducement (the Doral 'test')

IV - Florida Deceptive and Unfair Trade Policies Act (FDUTPA)

A former commenter here named Abd Lomax has done an outstanding job organizing these files, and you can see and search all of them here:

http://coldfusioncommunity.net…en-docket-and-case-files/

You can look at these claims and counter claims by reading at Abd's site, or by clicking on the 'Court Docket' tab at the top of this website.

At this stage in the game, all parties have agreed to a list of undisputed and disputed facts regarding the case. This is all listed in Document 290.

On May 23rd, the Court, overseen by Judge Altonaga will have a hearing to address all parties' Motions for Summary Judgement (which can only be granted if the Court believes it can rule on undisputed facts, as listed in Document 290). Also, the Judge will rule on IH and Rossi's Motions for Sanctions against each other, and all parties Motions in Limine regarding admitting or denying Expert Witness testimony and evidence. Essentially, both parties' Motions for Summary Judgement ask the Judge to dismiss all counts charged by the opponent, and grant all charges against the opponent (Rossi's motion is a bit less ambitious, but for simplicity's sake, you can think of them that way). And again, the Judge is only supposed to grant motions for summary judgement based on uncontested facts. Her rulings on sanctions and Motions in Limine are supposed to be based on accepted case law regarding rules for evidence.

So, if this interests your legal mind, you can look into these and make predictions regarding how the Judge will rule regarding the issues she will be addressing at that May 23rd hearing.

And I, and many others here, would be very interested in your analysis and predictions regarding the outcome of this May 23 hearing. It's an important one, because depending on the Judge's ruling, there's the possibility that there will be no jury trial regarding Rossi's claims against IH, or even for IH's claims against Rossi.

Or, much more likely, there will be a jury trial, but it may be limited to deciding narrower issues than have been brought up by the opposing parties.

Who knows, you might learn something through the process.

Back here again with Lugano?

Build one, don't fuel it, and do everything else the same (IR camera settings etc.).

Voila! The same COP as Lugano will be result. (But it won't be a real excess heat).

WITH NO FUEL IN IT!!!

For that matter, just build a simple smooth alumina cylinder with no fuel with a much simpler heater set-up (single phase, maybe even DC, for example)

And do the rest same as Lugano with the IR camera.

The darn thing will still make a (not real) COP similar to Lugano!

WITH NO FUEL IN IT!!!

The upcoming MFMP Lugano Thermal Validation Repeat (Or whatever it is called) can't come soon enough as far as I am concerned.

If the Doral Plant worked, there should have been over $800000 worth of Ni62 in those reactors.

If Rossi substituted IH's fuel, he had better be able to account for their Ni62.

That's right, IH's ashes and IH's fuel in the other "domestic heater" reactors also.

IH paid for the Plant 100%. Paid in full. They own all of it, reactors, fuel, ash, and even the rusty water stains and magic over-pumping metering pumps.

Quote from Eric Walker

Recall that finding a customer was not a requirement of the GPT, and that the terms of the GPT made no reference to a customer.

Moreover I remember a statement from JTV (I can not find the document now but I'm sure that it is in one of his deposition) where he explicitly says that they never cared about the Customer because they were just interested to the result of the test.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

If the Doral Plant worked, there should have been over $800000 worth of Ni62 in those reactors.

If Rossi substituted IH's fuel, he had better be able to account for their Ni62.

That's right, IH's ashes and IH's fuel in the other "domestic heater" reactors also.

IH paid for the Plant 100%. Paid in full. They own all of it, reactors, fuel, ash, and even the rusty water stains and magic over-pumping metering pumps.

Paradigmnoia,

Fine that you bash Rossi, but isn't that better done with stuff that is better understood?

Apart from the nonsense numbers mentioned in regards to the price of Ni62 by you and others, the market in this product is very illiquid and if one would really require 25kg the big boys would jump in and make sure the price would drop, the transmutation part (if any) of the Rossi-effect has AFAIK never been analyzed. Rossi himself was very surprised by the Ni62 findings. Bob Greenyer recently reported transmutation to Ag and Au.

Perhaps Thomas Darden should check out the reactors for some Pt-190. Supposedly that is an expensive isotope as well. Or is that statement as retarded as yours?

Cheers,

JB

Quote from Forty-Two

However, I make the prediction (and I believe that this isn't a bold prediction at all) that we won't see any e-cats, fat-cats, hot-cats, gas-cats, mouse-cats, e-tigers, phantastic-cats, QuarkX or any other one of Rossi's miracles in the shelfs of home-depot for the next 100 years, simply because all e-cats are just scrap, like the scrap Rossi left to the Italian tax payer for clean up after the PetrolDragon fiasco.

You keep on fishing in the same old waters ...... Rossi has been absolved of those accusations. If you enjoy digging in the past, take a look even at the past of IH: Ele has brought here some interesting links http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10…ew-jersey-style.html?_r=0 and http://www.postandcourier.com/…63-a818-6c0a67cdfa5f.html)

Quote from Rionrlty

You're right. I don't have any factual evidence that IH lied about the failure to replicate, simply that they reported they had succeeded and then later, after the fact, conveniently changed their position. While this does not prove that they were successful, or otherwise, it does cast reasonable doubt on the situation. The fact is that when a poor, hard working, abused individual inventor is forced into combat against a large multi-billionaire corporation, most ordinary people (typical Juror) will side with the individual. My best example of that is the Preston Tucker Trial in the early 1950's. Personally I don't trust for a minute that IH would pay the 89 mil if they could find a way out of it. I think it is likely that they confirmed the technology and figured to push Rossi into settling for a much smaller amount, but he then surprised them with the lawsuit.

I fully agree with you. IH's candor is somewhat improbable and convenient. They say they were deceived and that they understood it too late, but in the meantime their first tests on the Ecat gave positive results and their praise to Rossi's technology (also present in various Darden interviews) allowed IH to raise several funds.

Quote from oldguy

The agreement was not signed. Two of the three parties to the agreement did not agree to it in writing nor accept it while it was going on nor approve of Penon.

I think that a jury can understand the agreement called for a signing by all three.

If IH people were certain they could not consider the Doral test to be the GPT because of the lack of a signature, why did they promise Rossi to pay him in any case if he had achieved positive results? (See for example 254-04). It seems that their intention was not to pay him at all, since the promise was only oral, so retractable even at the last moment.

Quote from we_cat_global

In any case the whole "Luxenergy" episode is weird. IMHO you either believe in your technology investment (whether that is a 1 MW power plant or a light and heat emitting sapphire matchstick) or you don't. If you don't, you move on as efficiently as possible and if you do, you see things through until you reach a next phase. In IH's case it looks like they felt strong enough to continue on their own and pursue their LENR adventures without the guy that taught them everything. Enter karma.

IH have always had an ambiguous attitude towards Rossi's technology: they were doubtful about its operation but in the meantime they patented it, they funded many LENR researchers but in the suit documents they look skeptical about the LENR, they thought the Doral test was a farce but they talked well to investors ...... the best way to safeguard their backside!

Quote from Bob

Rossi is stating $89 million dollars worth that his technology is so reliable and replicable that it ran for 350 days out of 400 at high COP. Yet the Lugano team cannot replicate in 3 years time? They have been "allies" of Rossi. Why would he not have given them some secret sauce, etc?

Why has the Lugano team been completely silent. Not even a peep?

They have never been allies of Rossi. They are scientists who have tested his reactor and now they try to replicate it based on what they have learned. Why would Rossi have to trust them to blab the secrets of his discovery?

we_cat_global ,

Ni62 is worth what it costs today to replace it. Insurance value, if you like. A Corn Flake shaped like a bust of Lincoln is worth more than an amorphous Corn Flake, if the market says so.

If the reaction worked for a year, the final product should show it.

Crack open those 64 reactors and let's see what's in there.

I based my value on only 0.9 grams per reactor. Really, for a year, there should be more than that.

If Rossi took it, (re-charging), then he owes IH the value of the ash.

It's not Rossi's ash to take.

The thousand bucks of nickel powder Rossi needed to balance JMP accounts isn't equivalent to the Doral ash. Not even close.

Quote from sigmoidal

Italianlawyer

It goes without saying that people are entitled to their opinion, and you are certainly no exception.

...

Thank you sigmoidal on bringing clarity for many readers who have not followed whole story so closely.

To balance a bit I just want to add that this legal proceeding is merely about breach of contract. Does any of Rossis technology (e-cat, Hot-cat quark-x younameit) work or not is separate question. Many commenters here tries to predict outcome by technical success of earlier tests. Proving them definite true or false could affect on does Rossi get his 90 millions or Jail time, but not other way around.

Some think that even discussions in this forum could have affect on outcome, but with wide range of opinions and wild theories here, I highly doubt that the only thing they possibly learn from here is to concentrate even stricter on hard evidence and facts in court docket. Which might be what they should do.

Not to forget many failures of 'Rossi says' and failed promises of automated mega-factories etc. Court sealed few evidence documents out from trial, but they are still in docket to dig. With this 8000+ comments of endless debates about window reflections, stains in the floor, pipe diameters, steam traps, heat exchangers, Lugano tests etc. etc. Some could even think that scaring them off from reading here has been main goal after it slipped out that there is APCO connection, Israeli connection and threat-/bribing hints towards Italian and Swedish scientists ...

In a hope for future scientific behavioral pattern research of this thread also from this aspect.

Quote from SSC

Moreover I remember a statement from JTV (I can not find the document now but I'm sure that it is in one of his deposition) where he explicitly says that they never cared about the Customer because they were just interested to the result of the test.

It makes a lot of sense that IH would not care (all that much) about a customer, which was a weird Rossi thing. IH were working with a loose cannon who wanted to go off to Doral, Florida, far away from Raleigh, North Carolina, and do some weird thing in a warehouse with a purported 1MW plant that would purportedly generate heat for a year, with a purported customer who was willing to pay for the heat. And all this time, IH are asking themselves, "but does Rossi's IP actually work?". This could have been determined with a much smaller setup on a much smaller timescale using rigorous methods. Which some of us have known and complained about for years. And which Rossi no doubt was not being helpful with.

This is different from saying that IH didn't care about the customer. They surely would have objected to the whole show if they knew in advance that the customer was a pretend customer. But that is only requiring that what was represented by Rossi not be completely misleading. Also, a bona fide customer testifying to a more efficient industrial process is certainly something, if the testimony ends up being credible, in contrast to nothing.

A key insight in this context is that If IH knew that Rossi's IP worked at the start of the Doral matter and were just trying to give him the short end of the stick, they would have strongly objected to Doral if they thought that it could eventually be construed in retrospect as the GPT, as it would present an 89 million dollar liability which they would have been keen to avoid, since they only hoped to bilk Rossi (by hypothesis). Even if you assign ruthless motives to IH, this is support for the conclusion that they were not confident that Rossi's IP worked at the start of the Doral business.

Doc. 300 and its exhibits now on the docket.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

we_cat_global ,

Ni62 is worth what it costs today to replace it. Insurance value, if you like. A Corn Flake shaped like a bust of Lincoln is worth more than an amorphous Corn Flake, if the market says so.

If the reaction worked for a year, the final product should show it.

Crack open those 64 reactors and let's see what's in there.

I based my value on only 0.9 grams per reactor. Really, for a year, there should be more than that.

If Rossi took it, (re-charging), then he owes IH the value of the ash.

It's not Rossi's ash to take.

The thousand bucks of nickel powder Rossi needed to balance JMP accounts isn't equivalent to the Doral ash. Not even close.

Display More

Paradigmnoia,

Besides that this is a pointless discussion and the fact that none of us knows what was in the reactors, your calculation method is incorrect. You cannot just extrapolate the price of something per gram to the price of a kg (per gram). If somebody now wants to sell 25kg of Ni-62 the price drops significantly. If you now need to buy 25Kg of Ni-62 you will not be able to fill your order. The stuff is just not available. That is called an illiquid market. In an illiquid market there is no efficient price discovery and therefore price volatility is high. The price can go anywhere. However, if there is for some reason improved liquidity over a prolonged period buyers and or sellers will find ways to use / produce the goods.

What about this one? I heard that JT Vaughn took a Quark X home after the initial tests. The sapphire and nickel were formed into an impeccable 400 carat ruby. What a scoundrel!

Please, go ahead, you can have the last word on the topic.

Cheers,

JB

Quote from Eric Walker

A key insight in this context is that If IH knew that Rossi's IP worked at the start of the Doral matter and were just trying to give him the short end of the stick, they would have strongly objected to Doral if they thought that it could eventually be construed in retrospect as the GPT, as it would present an 89 million dollar liability which they would have been keen to avoid, since they only hoped to bilk Rossi (by hypothesis). Even if you assign ruthless motives to IH, this is support for the conclusion that they did not know whether Rossi's IP worked at the start of the Doral business.

Eric, this is an excellent point not often made here. Those trying to construct an IH wants the IP for free story must absolutely explain why they allowed the test to run.

• The handwritten notes that are now released give a lot of insight into their real motives. They were very interested in Rossi IP because of the apparently independent evidence it worked, and their own replications initially seeming to work reliably. Obviously they could not trust Rossi an inch, and the negative evidence (COP=9 dummy, Boeing failed to replicate) was a worry. In that situation keeping Rossi sweet to help them get things to work - maybe all the failures were missing some magic step - was an imperative for Darden. He must now regret it!
• You can also square the test with IH having got Rossi's stuff to work, and happy to pay him - even for a legally deficient test - because their billion dollar plan to introduce new technology is on course.
• You can't square the test with IH wanting to save $89M on the cost of Rossi technology which does work, because they just would not have allowed the test - or at least not encouraged the is it / is it not ambiguity about whether it was the GPT. Darden would need to be an idiot and out to defraud Woodford as well as Rossi, doing it very incompetently.

Rionrlty thinks sigmoidal and I are doomed as untrustworthy because long-winded, rational, and fact-laden instead of pithy and passionate like IHFB (I can understand the POV) so I guess he reckons Abd is the Devil himself.

I go to Abd's site to find reference stuff. It is outstanding, if you can get through the words, He is even more OCD than me over this matter and has spent days wading through the legal stuff actually comparing the details with the summaries with a clear mind. Hats off to him. You don't have to agree with his conclusions, but can check the details he unearths. On the matter of: what were IH thinking when they backed Rossi and allowed the test we have pretty good evidence of IH's state of mind from the various handwritten scrawls now in evidence. Abd has transliterated most of them. (Cassarini's handwriting is really really bad). And BTW Argon here via the weird Ahlfors here are to thank for initially noting this stuff, so crowd sleuthing clearly has some merit.

from http://coldfusioncommunity.net/amped-up-on-ampenergo/ and originally from 247-1, Autumn 2014 just before the Lugano test after the license agreement when all was rosy. Cassarini's private contemporaneous notes about IH:

• Woodford > first deal / public deal
• $25-50 M (up to $200 M) (or more if they need to buy out Rossi)
• Dutch entity > will become parent
• Dutch entity > currently a subsidiary of IH. IH’s IP has been transferred to Dutch entity
• IH will likely
• Dewey Weaver > IP attorney
• 2-50 yrs away?
• Test report > as early as the 10th October
• Tom and Andrea are recharging reactors.
• Swedish report. 16 Oct. 2014
• Dewey / IP

and

• David Perry and T. Barker > 4 weeks away to completion of 1 MW
• Attorney Johnson – Rossi’s lawyer in Miami; real estate attorney; owner of entity in Miami; may have connection to a chemical company (not verified).
• Device sent to Boeing > Rossi does not know.

and

• IH 31 October 2014
• Securing initial funding
• $50 million > maybe tranched
• Netherlands Co. > parent Co.
• IH, LLC Shareholder agreement for new entity.
• Mcubre
• Post [?} funding > additional testing
• 2015 > better understanding of theory
• Hagelstien [sic] & Storms
• IH > not involved in test; did not know that fuel and spent fuel would be tested; may be Rossi’s play to get Nobel; he knows he has to reveal this; but still protect the catalyst and other proprietary info.
• T. Barker, Barry Wes 7 or 8 guys

You can see here in detail how at the start - after the license agreement but before the test - IH were thinking big and lining things up to commercialise LENR. They had billions of $ signs in their eyes, and were happy to pay Rossi off if needed. Or at least that is what Cassarini noted here. They were reaching out to other LENR guys knowing they had to understand the theory to make progress, even given a working reactor. Note how they truly did not trust Rossi (they were not idiots). And because in-house testing was so unclear they sent a reactor off to Boeing for tests (we know the result from that was negative - sorry i don't have the link to hand).

For me it is easy, given this detail, to see how IH would be reluctant to abandon their dreams just because a few tests were negative. They had the Swedish profs positive from two different tests. They had Woodford jumping on board with enough money for the next stretch - after which they would expect to have in-house working reactors showing disruptive tech to all and sundry. They did not even need to do this. Woodford (for obvious reasons) was good for next round funding if all stayed good. (It did not).

The RR script has to reckon these VCs are super-duper fools who then decide that instead of paying Rossi off to the extent of $89M, they must face sure legal action (by the time the payment was due everyone knew the score and lawyers had been energised). It just does not make sense when you look at the details. Woodford would have a hand in this and would be very upset indeed to see their $50M investment in the high stakes gamble of a lifetime risked just because IH were penny pinching another $89M that Woodford had agreed to pay. Remember, to do anything IH needs money from the likes of Woodford. They were in the loop - heavily so - and had Darden been trying to cheat them and Rossi (as RR has to claim, for his story to make sense) he would surely be found out. In any case he has no motivation to cheat Woodford. They are part of the solution, as you can see from these notes. How could Darden hide success developing E-Cats from Woodford, even if he was so foolish as to want to do this?

Quote from Alan Smith

Sorry, I have no idea. Logic might suggest that this is a Rossi system, as well as the presence of a Rossi colleague - but if you read my post on this you know as much as I do.

My reply to this no-content-but-logic post was moved by Alan to the Playground. I can't work it out since I was doing no more than making logical deductions (my reply was also no-content-but-logic).

If no content posts get moved then Alan's post should be so moved also?

Not that I care very much... Of course these no-content-but-logic posts indicate views, because Alan and I, with differing views, highlight different possible logical connections.