Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

    Wonderful Jack and thank you! In keeping with the positive spirit and tone established by Sir Cole, I believe that the employees and families of those involved in the Italian court and prison system were grateful for the man years of employment opportunity that Rossi blessed them with in the 80's and 90's. Cadillac and the South Beach Condo and Homeowners Association both want to know where to send a thank you note. Both members of the Pinball Source Code Software Developers Union (PSCSDU) are incredibly fortunate for the visionary leadership and sacrifice that Rossi made to keep their art alive. Frank Acland, Vessy and Peter Gluck rose to fame on Rossi's back (or maybe front) and I hope that they have been thankful and not just takers. Surely we have not thought of everyone......


    I applaud and appreciate the hard work of the the lenr "old timers" but I'm afraid that it has not yet born fruit, even after 28 years (22 years when Rossi came on the scene in 2011). I won't go through the details of the problems with many of the experiments, including those who are well-funded (e.g. SKINR institute at the U. of Missouri). I've also recently attended at least one ICCF meeting and I was impressed by how little was still known (hundreds of theories, no reproducibility, very weak often marginal effects). I was even more impressed (perhaps I should say depressed) by the secretiveness of the researchers (which blocks progress and hides errors), and by the fact that, despite the lack of funding etc. the researchers did not cooperate more. Ed Storms has recently claimed that he has made progress with fuel (Pd) preparation but my impression is that he has not revealed all of the details, although my hope is that he will be able to do so. I believe that he is funded by IH. I also don't understand the secretiveness of Piantelli (MFMP stated that it was because of concerns regarding the safety of his Ni-H technology) despite the fact that he has apparently achieved 10's of Watts (or more) excess power and has also obtained clear evidence of nuclear processes (high-energy protons etc.). However, ignoring Rossi for the moment, there appears to be a ray of hope in the work of me356 (which will be openly tested shortly by MFMP) and Suhas (same) since these are apparently kW scale with COP of order 10. It's clear to me that me356's work was inspired by Rossi, and even based initially on replicating the Lugano test, and I suspect that the same is true of Suhas. It will be interesting to see if, during the next 3-6 months, any of these (e.g. Rossi, me356, Suhas) or others (e.g. Bob Higgins, Alan Smith, David Fojt) pans out.

    Quote from ele

    In all most recent tests it was not Rossi himself that was measuring power in and out.

    I presume that you refer to a test that is years old and whose results are now days out of date.

    My feeling is that Rossi is sincere but most of his detractors are not.


    Ele,

    I am most sincere in my belief in LENR. I am a Rossi detractor. I have noticed that people here with names that rhyme with Phooey :) think you are very close to Rossi.

    I do not care who someone is on a message board but what they say. It's not that Rossi's IP verification by IH that failed nor any of the multiple supposedly independent tests have been successfully challenged but instead he misled even those who believed in him with the JMP scam. It takes great hubris to do what he has attempted. I for one want this case to go to court and not settled. If IH settles before this happens I would be most disappointed in them. One question if I may segue a bit. With your great knowledge of the field why are you not opining in the other threads to help LENR?

    Quote

    Why accept 50% when you can have 100%?

    Perhaps because accepting 50% of potential ecat revenues world wide would make Rossi richer and more famous than Bill Gates, Elon Musk and Warren Buffet combined?


    Quote

    I don't understand the fascination with Rossi's plumber tools. Is he expected to have Scotty's trans warp phase inducer? Tools are tools.

    Complete folly. Or perhaps you'd allow your brain surgeon to operate on you using the tools pictured in Krivit's photo? Or maybe you'd let your eye surgeon or perhaps your aircraft mechanic ply their craft with Rossi's plumber's dirty and gross tool box?


    Those tools are only suitable for the grossest of assemblies like boilers and toilets. They would not make sense for assembling a precise and delicate device like the very first working fusion reactor would be -- complete with small amounts of fuel and hydrogen to be kept securely inside, and cooling channels to transfer the reaction's heat.

    Quote from Dewey Weaver

    Wonderful Jack and thank you! In keeping with the positive spirit and tone established by Sir Cole, I believe that the employees and families of those involved in the Italian court and prison system were grateful for the man years of employment opportunity that Rossi blessed them with in the 80's and 90's. Cadillac and the South Beach Condo and Homeowners Association both want to know where to send a thank you note. Both members of the Pinball Source Code Software Developers Union (PSCSDU) are incredibly fortunate for the visionary leadership and sacrifice that Rossi made to keep their art alive. Frank Acland, Vessy and Peter Gluck rose to fame on Rossi's back (or maybe front) and I hope that they have been thankful and not just takers. Surely we have not thought of everyone......


    That is a broad brush Dewey. You are entitled to your own opinions but some of these people regardless of their belief in Rossi believe in what they think is an LENR effect.

    This should be in the playground along with my comment. I hope that they do not let you around neither puppies or kids. Stick to the Rossi case. It's what you do best.

    Quote

    If you do your due diligence and calculate for the physical design of the hot cat the possible convected and radiated power which can be dissipated, then you will see that no forced cooling is necessary for the temperatures reported. That's independent of the fact of the hot cat is working or not.


    Perhaps. but lack of forced cooling limits power capability. In fact, the hot cat tests demonstrated far less power than the tests Levi supposedly did (reported in NyTeknik) in 2011 with the first ecats. It is a hallmark of free energy scams that the performance drops off as scrutiny increases as does the accuracy and suitability of the methodology used to make the power measurements.


    Quote

    Rossi is now on his third scammer-lookalike cycle: e-cat, hot-cat, quarkX.

    Oh, he's further than that. You forgot Petroldragon, that disastrous scam, and the DOD thermoelectric scam -- a very expensive scam. In fact, Rossi has done nothing but scam and the scams are amazingly similar. The thermoelectric scam, like the ecat scam, claimed that universities had verified the operation of the device. That was not true for either claim. Rossi also mentioned robotic assembly plants in the thermoelectric scam and the ecat scam. Seen any?


    During his entire life, Rossi has NEVER produced or designed ANYTHING which actually succeeded in ANY market. He may have sold a few biofuel devices in the mid 1990's via the original Leonardo Corp but that is mainly an unproven claim and even if true, got nowhere.


    Quote

    Scammers normally disappear after a short time and eventually reappear with the same "invention". They also hate check done by any others.

    No they don't. Consider Bernie Madoff -- he continued scamming with his multi billion dollar Panzi scheme until he was physically captured and shut down by the government. Consider Steorn. They scammed from 2006 to 2016 with increasingly bizarre and unlikely claims which, nonetheless, yielded them a total of almost 25 million Euros which they "invested" in large salaries, idiotic "demos", and an ocean of ale.


    Quote

    Remember that Rossi Ecat passed a test done by IH experts in Ferrara.

    ROTFWL. Negligent and incompetent tests done by non-specialists in the required areas (calorimetry, heat transfer, fluid flow, and nuclear physics). Rossi simply bamboozled the self-styled experts and he barely exerted himself to accomplish it.

    Quote from maryyugo

    Perhaps because accepting 50% of potential ecat revenues world wide would make Rossi richer and more famous than Bill Gates, Elon Musk and Warren Buffet combined?


    Complete folly. Or perhaps you'd allow your brain surgeon to operate on you using the tools pictured in Krivit's photo? Or maybe you'd let your eye surgeon or perhaps your aircraft mechanic ply their craft with Rossi's plumber's dirty and gross tool box?


    Those tools are only suitable for the grossest of assemblies like boilers and toilets. They would not make sense for assembling a precise and delicate device like the very first working fusion reactor would be -- complete with small amounts of fuel and hydrogen to be kept securely inside, and cooling channels to transfer the reaction's heat.


    Fair enough maryyugo. I am enjoying your rebuttals lately. But I doubt Rossi will ever be my brain surgeon. From what I see his devices while crude would not require unique nor advanced tools for anything other than proving transmutation. The devices that I have seen (if they worked) would require plumbing tools not aircraft tools nor scalpel. I think it shows a bit of your background to describe the tools as dirty or gross ;) It's just that I do not see how this factors in to the case. The only thing that I see that is outstanding on the case is the JMP scam, and I find it outrageous.

    Quote from oldguy

    "every post you write is biased against" IH "and this reduces your credibility"
    you will judged as you judge

    I was honest and admitted I think AR is sincere.


    Also for the reasons showed by Ele (a scammer disappears with money, doesn't start a mediatic trial against a big company...).


    And - for sure - doesn't buy apartments in Florida... 👍


    Off course, if I say that AR is sincere, then the consequence is that according to me the IH conduct isn't sincere...


    But I don't attack IH. I don't fell the need to discredit them.


    And, on the contrary, I have admitted that IH could win about Ecat IP affair... for the reason n. 2 of Erik.


    So, maybe I'm biased, but not so biased like other people here... Let's say I could change my opinion about AR after the trial. If he will be defeated.


    Are you ready to affirm the same if he wins?

    Quote from Rigel

    Fair enough maryyugo. I am enjoying your rebuttals lately. But I doubt Rossi will ever be my brain surgeon. From what I see his devices while crude would not require unique nor advanced tools for anything other than proving transmutation. The devices that I have seen (if they worked) would require plumbing tools not aircraft tools nor scalpel. I think it shows a bit of your background to describe the tools as dirty or gross ;) It's just that I do not see how this factors in to the case. The only thing that I see that is outstanding on the case is the JMP scam, and I find it outrageous.

    Only persons very naive and inexperienced in engineering, science, or manufacturing would believe that the crude, simplistic, inconsistent, amateurish, "apparatus". "instrumentation" and "test methods" demonstrated by Rossi and his cohorts (well, what is shown under the yards of cheap insulation), would believe that such methods would, or could, allow the research, testing and verification of the greatest invention of the century in "cold fusion". While not impossible, there is (as in everything) an infinitesimal probability, but then, we all know that the Rossi disciples' basic scientific tenant is that the world must prove all negatives.

    I will be honest and admitted I think IH is sincere. That they sincerely hoped that the technology would work as claimed and that Rossi would transfer the technology so that they could make money when it was commercialized.


    I do not think that Rossi is sincere but that he does not produce items that others can commercialized as promised (a number of times and items like that). I would change my opinion if Rossi actually transferred the technology in such a way that it could be tested without him controlling the events and access,if it was verified by a truly independent party and if he invested the bulk of his money in advancing the technology to commercialization instead investing in condos. {that is he showed through his own investment that he thought his "miraculous revolutionary technology" had a better chance to yield profit for him than Florida real-estate)


    As far as win/loss of case - I don't think that the judge will rule on the technology nor on the sincerity of the individuals.

    Quote from Alan Smith

    I think that is a rather biased too. If you say 'every post reduces your credibility in my opinion' then that is understandable. But blanket condemnation of everyone pro-Rossi is just a way of closing down any debate, not expanding it.

    Alan, you are probably very busy and did not notice

    that it wasn't OldGuy who came up with a blanket statement first.


    He was replying to a Blanket statement that everyone pro-IH is just a blanket condemnation

    and a way of closing down any debate.


    But I do notice the word "too" in your comment,

    so you know EXACTLY the situation.


    Probably just trying to confirm your position, so I understand what you mean.

    (but not necessarily what one might expect from a mod)


    Pete

    • Official Post
    Quote from PIH

    Alan, you are probably very busy and did not notice

    that it wasn't OldGuy who came up with a blanket statement first.


    No- it was Italian Lawyer AFAIK. So he said it, and OldGuy said it - hence my use of the word 'too'. Both used the same words about opposing positions. As for 'what you expect from a mod' sorry to disappoint you. But being a mod is never about being too predictable.

    So am I in trouble by saying I think IH is sincere or that I don't think that Rossi is sincere?


    Where did the blanket condemnation comment of supporters come from? I didn't think I said any thing about Rossi supporters. The Italian lawyer did, but I did not mention supporters or any individual.

    After the recent rebuttal of Wong opinions on effective results achieved by the Doral factory, many external viewers (including me) may think that the Rossi's case is crying for third party experts opinions that aren't Penon's ones. After reading the judge's order [308] and Wong's document [197.01] it's clear to me (and hopefully it was clear to Rossi's legal team as well, unless they are totally incompetent) that the chances of rebuttal were very high: the expert simply wasn't provided with enough factual data to express conclusive opinions with regard of performance of the Doral factory. Of course those who believe Rossi is a scammer may conclude that no data has ever existed or the existing one is so fake that no expert would ever support its validity. We'll see if Rossi's lawyers will appeal on this decision: so far they haven't, preferring asking for reconsideration on Murray admissibility as an expert first.


    Now, trial is approaching and it's my understanding of the american civil practice that little to none more evidence will appear during the trial: no magically reappearing pictures of the heat exchanger, no military expert testifying having taken measurements on the Quarkx, nothing so clamorous. Penon's raw data may finally appear, and Lugano's report authors may testify that the e-cat worked for them, though they won't be allowed to produce a written expert disclosure other than the Lugano's report, which is not a document that can be read by any audience (except maybe for the conclusions). Both could be possible, but unconfirmed at this point. This is my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong.


    Even with some little more evidence appearing during the trial, at this point I think that Rossi's strategy is just: "Believe me because we decided together that Penon is the ERV (NOTE: this is disputed by IH) and him only should be allowed to judge on Doral factory performance". Citing Lugano's report authors he will state "Believe me because e-cat worked for them". If they will testify during the trial it will be a plus for Rossi, but this is not a requirement. They won't ask for more measurements taken directly on the 1MW plant, nor there will be any real experts fight. Those who hoped for truth to be eviscerated will be highly disappointed . Do you agree (that this is the strategy)? Do you think this is a strategy at all?

    Quote from Pascal Marchetti

    Do you think this is a strategy at all?


    The trial will be expensive for both sides, and there is still a strategy of sorts there if Rossi sees a chance that IH will settle before going to trial. If Rossi loses, I doubt he will have enough in remaining assets for IH to recover their costs. (Dewey Weaver has explained that IH will not settle.)


    I say "strategy of sorts" because this does not seem to be a typical lawsuit in many respects.

    In US federal appellate courts, appeal is typically restricted to "consideration of the factual record as established in the trial court." It does appear to be common for new evidence to be admitted, but much (but not all) of the new evidence "falls into the category of legislative facts. ... these are, in essence, facts that are not directly related to the specific events in a particular case."


    It would be interesting for someone knowledgeable to chime in on what kinds of new evidence could be admitted during an appeal, barring a finding of a mistrial.

    Not sure how a settlement could be agreed.


    Rossi would want it to be "secret and confidential" so he is able to paint it as a victory, but he would not be able to resist blogging about it.

    Rossi would want his IP back but he is not going to be able to pay the money back to IH since a lot is now spent in legal fees.

    What reasons do IH have to settle at this point? The legal costs are mostly committed now so unless they want to settle for fear of the chance of losing. Seems they are not in the mood to settle.


    We should find out more pending further judgments tomorrow.

    Quote from Alan Smith

    Deeply untypical. And whatever happens it will be appealed by one side or the other.


    Yes!


    Quote from Alan Smith

    That's when I expect to see rebuttal evidence, not before.


    Yes, little to none before, but also little to none after. There are legal 'tricks' to squeeze in bits of new evidence at trial, despite discovery completion, but less options are available on appeal, since on appeal (per Eric's comment), findings of fact are (supposed to be) confined to whatever was established by the jury at trial.


    The only new evidence (that is supposed to be) allowed would be facts or evidence regarding how the ruling was reached, not evidence regarding the facts of the case itself.


    If, however, during or after trial, the Judge or Appeals Court rules that it was a mistrial, then there is the possibility of a new trial, but whether and how much new evidence is allowed (from the previous trial's evidentiary phase) would depend on the basis for the mistrial ruling. In that case, the amount of new evidence allowed could range from zero to a completely new trial starting from scratch.


    If 'from scratch', wouldn't that be a financial boon for the Annessers and/or JD?! And just think, the amount of posts to this thread could exceed 5 figures! (The horror).

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