Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

  • How do you fake that much heat? Really?

    You measure it with tools you supply and only you interpret the measured data.

    None of these guys thought to bring their own thermometer. Jed Rothwell was invited to a Rossi demo, and when Rossi saw that he was going to bring his own tools he uninvited Jed. I find it incredible that over these last 8 years not one of these guys brought their own thermometer to the party.


    Celani brought a Geiger counter and got roundly scolded by Rossi when Gammas were present, because that would quickly have pointed to which reaction was taking place. Someone thought to bring a Geiger counter, but not a thermometer. It just defies gravity in terms of common sense.

  • there has been no evidence that he has offered, other than a comment on his blog

    That is evidence, and it can be brought up in court. The judge can rather forcefully get these 2 sides to take this trial off the books just by focusing on this offer supposedly that only exists in Rossi's mind.


    That should satisfy most of the Anti-Rossi activists, shouldn't it? Rossi gets to keep his worthless IP, IH gets their money back.

  • It doesn't matter where or when the row started for purposes of this particular discussion. The claim is that if Rossi had what IH wanted, they could just pay him the $89 Mil and they could get moving on LENR again. That ain't gonna happen.

    IH has already paid Rossi for the general technology and for him to transfer that technology to them and in addition the rights (within most W Hemisphere countries) for any improvements on that technology. That is what the 11.5M was for. (it sure wasn't for just a Rossi controlled demo). At that stage it could have taken years to develop into a commercially reasonable system. IH owns the rights to the ecat and improvements. They did buy it.


    The 89M was for a commercially viable system that could be produced and tested within a stated time period to show commercial levels of COP (>6) in away that was durable (year).


    Why do people seem to say that they haven't paid Rossi for the Technology. What do you think the contract and payment of 11.5M total was for?

  • None of these guys thought to bring their own thermometer. Jed Rothwell was invited to a Rossi demo, and when Rossi saw that he was going to bring his own tools he uninvited Jed. I find it incredible that over these last 8 years not one of these guys brought their own thermometer to the party.


    Maybe it's a just selective selection. The one who wanted to bring their one tools where not invited again. The ones left where the one that didn't think about bringing a thermometer.


    I bit more seriously. You make it a bit to easy. It's not enough to bring a thermometer. If I remember correctly Mats actually brought a thermometer to the October 6 test. There are other unclear issues. What is the input power, how much of the steam is vaporized, an with the hotcat it was not possible to measure with an ordinary thermometer. My conclusion is that to make a convincing test Rossi can't be involved in any way when it comes to the test set-up.


    It might have been enough with a thermometer, a timer, a bucket of known size and true RMS meter measuring the input if Rossi would have allowed sparging. But he never did.

  • That is evidence, and it can be brought up in court. The judge can rather forcefully get these 2 sides to take this trial off the books just by focusing on this offer supposedly that only exists in Rossi's mind.


    That should satisfy most of the Anti-Rossi activists, shouldn't it? Rossi gets to keep his worthless IP, IH gets their money back.


    I'm sorry to be this frank. But that sounds stupid in my ear. What make you think the judge could do such a thing?


    And even if the judge could and would. What if Rossi then say. That offer isn't valid any more. Now I want to continue with this trial to get damages.

  • That is evidence, and it can be brought up in court. The judge can rather forcefully get these 2 sides to take this trial off the books just by focusing on this offer supposedly that only exists in Rossi's mind.


    That should satisfy most of the Anti-Rossi activists, shouldn't it? Rossi gets to keep his worthless IP, IH gets their money back.

    If that was true, then why didn't Rossi and IH do that back in Jan when they were in a judge ordered mediation?

    A statement in a blog is not evidence unless filed filed in discovery and testified to.


    People can say anything in blogs which may or may not be true- as you often do.

  • IH has already paid Rossi for the general technology and for him to transfer that technology to them and in addition the rights (within most W Hemisphere countries) for any improvements on that technology. That is what the 11.5M was for. (it sure wasn't for just a Rossi controlled demo). At that stage it could have taken years to develop into a commercially reasonable system. IH owns the rights to the ecat and improvements. They did buy it.


    The 89M was for a commercially viable system that could be produced and tested within a stated time period to show commercial levels of COP (>6) in away that was durable (year).


    Why do people seem to say that they haven't paid Rossi for the Technology. What do you think the contract and payment of 11.5M total was for?

    I think the 11.5M was the downpayment on a demo. Plus Rossi is required to turn over the contents of the demo in still-working condition, and an agreed 3rd party dude who monitors the demo and writes his own 3rd party report. IH agreed to pay $100M for a demo by Fred Flinstone when they thought they were buying a $Trillion turnkey technology.

  • That's correct, talking about insult to injury, Rossi and his congregation thinks he should have his valuable hotdog cooker IP back (the only reason likely is to help further perpetuate the incessant and droning here by a few that rossi has any IP other than the hotdog cooker patent), after IH paid 10+ million for it; also IH can write off the $10+ million anyway, since anything to do with Rossi or his hotdog cookers have been nothing but a money and resource rat-hole (ie nothing profitable or any possibility of becoming profitable).

  • That is evidence, and it can be brought up in court. The judge can rather forcefully get these 2 sides to take this trial off the books just by focusing on this offer supposedly that only exists in Rossi's mind.


    That should satisfy most of the Anti-Rossi activists, shouldn't it? Rossi gets to keep his worthless IP, IH gets their money back.

    You really think that Rossi has 11.5M + legal fees for IH after buying multiple FL beach condos and spending who know what on legal fees, pinball restoration, paying JM expenses,......


    And by what authority can the judge force them to mediation during trial after she did it back in Jan already?

  • None of these guys thought to bring their own thermometer. Jed Rothwell was invited to a Rossi demo, and when Rossi saw that he was going to bring his own tools he uninvited Jed. I find it incredible that over these last 8 years not one of these guys brought their own thermometer to the party.


    Celani brought a Geiger counter and got roundly scolded by Rossi when Gammas were present, because that would quickly have pointed to which reaction was taking place. Someone thought to bring a Geiger counter, but not a thermometer. It just defies gravity in terms of common sense.


    [edit] " I find it incredible that over these last 8 years not one of these guys brought their own thermometer to the party." Not true ... at least initially. See my Experiment Table

    For the initial Jan 2011 demonstration Rossi set up the system with his own instrumentation, and Levi invited the Bologna "evaluation team", who were permitted to bring ANYTHING except a radiation spectrometer. (And the start-up gamma burst is a strong indication that Rossi had something real).

    For subsequent evaluations there was again NO restriction. However Essen and Kullander brought no instruments of their own. (Lewan brought his).

    In particular, for his own experiments, Lewan was allowed to bring anything for calorimetry, and in fact callibrated the meters he did bring. (The True vs RMS metering issue was only discovered later.) Rossi provided Lewan with a steam trap, and the ability to Sparge.

    It was only for the Oct 6, 2011 Heat Exchanger test that Rossi set up the heat exchanger and thermocouples (dis-assembling them at the end). Again, Lewan brought instruments and was allowed to use them. As I pointed out the placement of the thermocouples was bad (though an attempted thermal simulation was inconclusive).

    The visit by Krivitt (who had a BIG chip on his shoulder) was specifically a demonstration only.) I don't have enough information to comment on the Rothwell invitation.

  • If that was true, then why didn't Rossi and IH do that back in Jan when they were in a judge ordered mediation?

    A statement in a blog is not evidence unless filed filed in discovery and testified to.


    People can say anything in blogs which may or may not be true- as you often do.

    I know that about blog statements. As soon as Rossi (or IH) brings it up in court, it's no longer just a blog statement, it becomes a legitimate offer the judge can focus on. And like you point out, I often say this but people like you like to turn it into a straw argument, time and again.



    The judge ordered mediation was an afterthought because neither side thought to go through with it until after they knew there was going to be a trial. It was doomed from the start.


    So if Rossi doesn't bring up the offer in court, it seems likely because he's convinced he will win the whole nut, which I think is farfetched. If IH doesn't bring up the offer in court, it's because they want to keep the supposedly worthless IP. Or, it could be that their lawyers don't like to use such strategies. That's the thing about trials, a lot of things can happen.

  • You really think that Rossi has 11.5M + legal fees for IH after buying multiple FL beach condos and spending who know what on legal fees, pinball restoration, paying JM expenses,......


    And by what authority can the judge force them to mediation during trial after she did it back in Jan already?

    Why do you keep using straw argumentation? Where did I say he has 11.5M + legal fees? It's a standard hypothetical, dude.


    I don't think a judge can force mediation. But judges do have lots of authority. They can basically instruct the jury to find the defendant guilty or not guilty. They can disallow all objections from one side and give a free hand to the other side. They can willy-nilly throw out various pieces of evidence that one side or the other depends on in their case. There's all kinds of things a judge can do if they want to.

  • So are you asserting that once Rossi's blog is mentioned in court, all information in it becomes evidence? All those things like his claims that the heat was from endothermic chemistry,,, no wait, vented out the roof,.... no wait out a window..... Rossi's claims of sales of 4 ecat (which would be a violation of contract), his claims of robots making ecats, his even admitting to IH trial testing which is a violation of confidentiality,.... and so on?

  • I'm sorry to be this frank. But that sounds stupid in my ear. What make you think the judge could do such a thing?

    Judges have a lot of authority.  More than you realize.  

    And even if the judge could and would. What if Rossi then say. That offer isn't valid any more. Now I want to continue with this trial to get damages.

    If Rossi pulls that stunt, then the judge gets to pull her stunts. She disallows Rossi evidence, she finds in favor of all objections from IH attorneys, she threatens contempt, she instructs the jury to consider what a horrible con man Rossi is and how it was him that caused us all to miss our reruns of the Kardashians by not settling the case, she interrupts him during testimony and treats him harshly, there are tons of things a judge can do.

  • So are you asserting that once Rossi's blog is mentioned in court, all information in it becomes evidence? All those things like his claims that the heat was from endothermic chemistry,,, no wait, vented out the roof,.... no wait out a window..... Rossi's claims of sales of 4 ecat (which would be a violation of contract), his claims of robots making ecats, his even admitting to IH trial testing which is a violation of confidentiality,.... and so on?

    Yes. That would make anti-Rossi activists happy, wouldn't it?

  • Just a note to our valued long-time forum members. Some people will argue back come hell or high water, even if they are not speaking from a position of knowledge or there is no point of substance to be made. Whether this happens is partly in your hands.

  • That is evidence, and it can be brought up in court. The judge can rather forcefully get these 2 sides to take this trial off the books just by focusing on this offer supposedly that only exists in Rossi's mind.


    That should satisfy most of the Anti-Rossi activists, shouldn't it? Rossi gets to keep his worthless IP, IH gets their money back.


    Isn't that exactly what IH is asking for in the counter-claim. Give us back our 10.5 million? Great basis for a settlement, IH wins on all counts. Doesn't have to pay another 89.5 million and gets its original 10.5 back. But if Rossi wanted to do this he could have done it long ago and saved a lot of lawyers fees.


    And the judge can't go looking outside of what is sought to be introduced as evidence. This is not a French courtroom where the judges have investigative powers.

  • If Rossi pulls that stunt, then the judge gets to pull her stunts. She disallows Rossi evidence, she finds in favor of all objections from IH attorneys, she threatens contempt, she instructs the jury to consider what a horrible con man Rossi is and how it was him that caused us all to miss our reruns of the Kardashians by not settling the case, she interrupts him during testimony and treats him harshly, there are tons of things a judge can do.


    You really don't know a lot about federal judges. Yes, there are some loose cannons, but very damn few on the federal bench. And when they go off as you describe, the appeals court have no hesitation in reaming them out.

  • Quote

    Except that psychic mediums who talk to the dead and similar quackery do not have dozens of institutions and scientists backing the claims, such as with LENR.


    Except that they do. If all they had was whackjobs, I would not have disturbed them and their fantasies. One of the best educated proponents of after death communications is Harvard trained and U of Arizona full professor Gary Schwartz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Schwartz Another, through whom one could at one time meet many more is Dr. Melvin Morse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melvin_L._Morse . Dr. Morse just completed a stint in prison which you can read about in the wikipedia entry. I have had the opportunity to interact on forums with both of these gentlemen and the flavor of the interaction is much the same as that surrounding LENR. They are exquisitely sensitive and hurt by criticism, the more incisive the worse it is. And they eventually excluded and/or censored critics and skeptics from any forums they controlled.

  • Woodworker,


    The question first asked when Rossi filed suit, was: "well why don't they go back to Doral, unlock the 1MW, fire that baby up with all sides represented, and resolve this thing once and for all?". No doubt the jury will wonder the same. Makes sense after all, so why not. And actually something like that almost happened, as about a month after the plant was shuttered, Rossi told IH he wanted to start it back up, as he claimed the customer needed the energy (this was before IH knew for certain JMP was a ruse). IH suspected this as some kind of ploy, called his "bluff", agreed, and that they would be there too. Rossi backed down.


    It seems certain it is beyond the judges authority to order such a thing during trial. But is there anything preventing JD from presenting an offer to Rossi in front of the jury, that IH would pay the $89 mil if he would promise then and there to jointly start the 1MW back up, with whomever IH wishes to attend, participate in the setting up, and operations, and all parties agreed it showed overunity? Sounds kind of Perry Masonish I know, but just curious if JD could do something like that.

  • Woodworker,


    The question first asked when Rossi filed suit, was: "well why don't they go back to Doral, unlock the 1MW, fire that baby up with all sides represented, and resolve this thing once and for all?". No doubt the jury will wonder the same. Makes sense after all, so why not. And actually something like that almost happened, as about a month after the plant was shuttered, Rossi told IH he wanted to start it back up, as he claimed the customer needed the energy (this was before IH knew for certain JMP was a ruse). IH suspected this as some kind of ploy, called his "bluff", agreed, and that they would be there too. Rossi backed down.


    It seems certain it is beyond the judges authority to order such a thing during trial. But is there anything preventing JD from presenting an offer to Rossi in front of the jury, that IH would pay the $89 mil if he would promise then and there to jointly start the 1MW back up, with whomever IH wishes to attend, participate in the setting up, and operations, and all parties agreed it showed overunity? Sounds kind of Perry Masonish I know, but just curious if JD could do something like that.

    Woodworker,


    The question first asked when Rossi filed suit, was: "well why don't they go back to Doral, unlock the 1MW, fire that baby up with all sides represented, and resolve this thing once and for all?". No doubt the jury will wonder the same. Makes sense after all, so why not. And actually something like that almost happened, as about a month after the plant was shuttered, Rossi told IH he wanted to start it back up, as he claimed the customer needed the energy (this was before IH knew for certain JMP was a ruse). IH suspected this as some kind of ploy, called his "bluff", agreed, and that they would be there too. Rossi backed down.


    It seems certain it is beyond the judges authority to order such a thing during trial. But is there anything preventing JD from presenting an offer to Rossi in front of the jury, that IH would pay the $89 mil if he would promise then and there to jointly start the 1MW back up, with whomever IH wishes to attend, participate in the setting up, and operations, and all parties agreed it showed overunity? Sounds kind of Perry Masonish I know, but just curious if JD could do something like that.

    "if he would promise . . ." I don't see JD doing this.

  • Woodworker,


    The question first asked when Rossi filed suit, was: "well why don't they go back to Doral, unlock the 1MW, fire that baby up with all sides represented, and resolve this thing once and for all?". No doubt the jury will wonder the same. Makes sense after all, so why not. And actually something like that almost happened, as about a month after the plant was shuttered, Rossi told IH he wanted to start it back up, as he claimed the customer needed the energy (this was before IH knew for certain JMP was a ruse). IH suspected this as some kind of ploy, called his "bluff", agreed, and that they would be there too. Rossi backed down.


    It seems certain it is beyond the judges authority to order such a thing during trial. But is there anything preventing JD from presenting an offer to Rossi in front of the jury, that IH would pay the $89 mil if he would promise then and there to jointly start the 1MW back up, with whomever IH wishes to attend, participate in the setting up, and operations, and all parties agreed it showed overunity? Sounds kind of Perry Masonish I know, but just curious if JD could do something like that.

    not going to happen. Remember that Rossi was removing things and taking the system apart the evening after the "test". Meters removed, "refueling", ... then later removing the instruments and plumbing outside the container. Looks to me like he was in a hurry to disassemble the system so that there could not be such a retest. Now why would he do that?


    I will also add that the removal of fuel and meters were done before Rossi filed his suit against IH.

  • Once again: there is not and never was the slightest need to test a so-called megawatt plant or the so-called hot-cat or the "six cylinder" contraption. According to Rossi and Levi's measurements, the best performing ecat EVER was the first series of steam producing ones. Levi's test produced the highest power peak (130kW) , the highest average power (18kW if memory serves) and a run plenty long enough to exclude absolutely any other power source except nuclear.


    And those early ecats were small, simple, and ran on one small shot of hydrogen and a thimble-full of nickel. The obvious test to ask for, were Rossi for real, would be (and has always been) to run such an ecat under conditions where the steam is "sparged" -- condensed, collected in a water bath and the temperature rise is measured. Of course, that would be done by a competent and completely independent third party such as a government or commercial professional measurement lab. They would also provide and measure the input power --by the simplest possible means.


    There would be nothing to gain by having Rossi repeat another of his charade-magic show- fraud con combinations he bamboozled Lewan and the Swedish scientists with.


    But that is pure fantasy. Rossi would has never agreed to any simple, clean test of his technology by independent work... and he never will.

  • You really think that Rossi has 11.5M + legal fees for IH after buying multiple FL beach condos and spending who know what on legal fees, pinball restoration, paying JM expenses,......


    And by what authority can the judge force them to mediation during trial after she did it back in Jan already?

    By buying Florida Condos in this kind of market he may indeed have enough money now to buy his IP back.