Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

  • Jed,

    Exhibit 5 Murray questions for Fabio
    "As I noted above, the questions above are not all of the questions I have from my visit to the 1 MW Plant location, but if you can address these, it would be a good start to me better understanding what you were measuring and how you were measuring it in connection with the 1 MW Plant."

    These are questions for Fabio not Penon. I too would like to see the answers. Murray has made assertions about the flow meter for a long time, but I still have not seen a dimensioned drawing of the piping layout necessary to judge whether the flow meter was full or not. It;s accuracy at lower flows is presumably available from the manufacturer

    I read earlier that millions of readings were taken. I presume by computer. So what is on the reports are summaries. It would be necessary to see the actual record rather than just the summaries to understand what was going on.


    I gather that the meters were sealed and some at least showed just the running totals. Some of the problems may have been just averaging these to show daily rates



    Exhibit 1 Smith.
    "To use “COP” as a measure of the efficiency of a heat producing device (the E-Cat), as opposed to a work absorbing device (an air conditioner), is a misapplication of the term."

    Smith is pedantic and very long winded. He says he has never visited or seen the plant.

    I didn't need the elementary lesson in thermodynamics.


    When this first started I asked you to specify exactly what "irrefutable proof of fraud" you found in Penon's report and I have yet to see an answer. At the time you said it was confidential and you couldn't repeat it.



    Smith's 34 pages of waffle does not answer that question.

    I don't want to be dragged into an endless battle about who said what. Let's wait and see what the court decides.

  •  

    @Jed,


    Any argument about the violation of conservation of energy is an ignorant one among the those in the LENR community. Once IH chose to go down that path, they lost credibility among those who follow LENR (except apparently with you). There is no violation of conservation of energy with LENR.

     


    (Apologies in advance if I'm missing sarcasm/joking because of unfamiliarity with forum and participants.)


    I read the Smith report. It strikes me (a lawyer w/ an undergrad degree in Zoology) as well-written and compelling.


    Smith did not argue that conservation of energy makes LENR impossible because energy cannot be created. His argument was the reverse; that the amount of energy claimed to have been created by this device could not have been destroyed (because thermodynamics) but there is no record or evidence of it being dissipated in any way.


    What he argued was that if Rossi's device produced heat, conservation of energy mandates that the heat had to go somewhere. There is no evidence that the warehouse was equipped to send the heat produced anywhere or put it to any use - no huge vent fan, no rooftop cooling tower, no evidence of claimed heat exchanger, water records not showing sufficient city water inflow to account for cooling, no record of building reaching near-boiling-point temperatures incompatible with human life, no use by customer, nothing.


    Therefore, either heat energy was being destroyed - which would violate thermodynamics - or the heat energy claimed wasn't created in the first place.

  • You may be referring to the time I tried to give Robert Park a paper by McKubre. He refused to touch it, letting it fall to the floor. He was with the APS, not the DoE. He wanted "plausible deniability."

    Rossi's demonstrations have not "left a lot to be desired." That's an extreme understatement. His 1-year test was an outrageous farce and criminal fraud. Anyone who understands the science who reads the Penon report will see that. That is why, for example, Axil refuses to read the Penon report. He also wants "plausible deniability."

    That is nonsense. In March 1989, every scientist on earth other than P&F was an extreme doubter. Thousands were convinced by experiments. If Rossi's device was real, and it was demonstrated correctly, it would instantly convince millions of people, and trigger a world-wide effort that would quickly bring billions of dollars to Rossi. I and many others have offered to test his device in a way that would convince millions of people. Rossi refused us. The only people who have tested his machines carefully are the people at I.H. and the people at Boeing who assisted them. They are experts. If the machine worked, they would have proved that beyond doubt. They found instead that it does not work. Not at all. It does not produce 1 W of excess heat. They are certain of that result, and so am I.

    You and the other doubters on this forum have not exactly given him reason to believe you would be unbiased were he to give you the opportunity. In fact were it me I would run the other direction as fast as I could.

  • I am wondering why the by Thomas Darden controlled IPH INTERNATIONAL B.V., NORTH CAROLINA is still (Assignment June 2016) applying for an US Patent with the data of the Lugano Report?

    https://www.google.com/patents/US20160051957

    If the Jones Day Lawyer claims before the jury that all the E-Cat tests are fraudulently faked by Rossi, how could Darden et.al. use exactly this data for an official US patent application that is still valid today and how to explain this contradiction to a normal, rational man? In my opinion this patent application had to withdraw immediately!

  • When I read the whole thing I get the impression that Rossi was always loyal to Craig J. Cassarino and that IH was well aware that the test in Miami was the ERV test after which the 89 mio would have to be paid to Rossi.

    From your question I deduct IH is going after the reputation of Penon and the validity of his measurements in the trial?


    And please spare me with these planet Rossi fillings you are so eager to express.

  • When I read the whole thing I get the impression that Rossi was always loyal to Craig J. Cassarino and that IH was well aware that the test in Miami was the ERV test after which the 89 mio would have to be paid to Rossi.

    From your question I deduct IH is going after the reputation of Penon and the validity of his measurements in the trial?

    One would hope they are going after Penon and his report. That is a key claim of AR that supposedly shows his breakthrough technology producing copious amounts of excess heating.

  • There are 2 things that I do not understand about this inquiry.


    2) If the Penon report is so irrefutable proof of fraud and it has been entered as evidence in the case, why wasn't the case summarily dismissed in the motion for summary judgement?

    Because assessing the weight, meaning, or truthfulness of contested evidence isn't done at summary judgment.


    Basically, Rossi submitted the Penon report as evidence that certain contractual conditions were met. IH has produced other evidence which (they argue) suggests that the Penon report was either extremely flawed or entirely fabricated, and that the contractual conditions were therefore not met. All the judge can do at summary judgment is decide if: (a) the results stated in the Penon report are material facts in this case (they are, because they determine if contractual conditions at issue in the case were met); (b) the Penon report is evidence supporting those facts (it is, because the evidence has to be taken at face value at the summary judgment stage); and (c) if the IH evidence, taken at face value, suggests that the Penon report is erroneous or fraudulent (it does).


    At that point, it's clear that the results stated in the Penon report are disputed material facts. Disputed material facts don't (normally) get dealt with at summary judgment because it's not the role of the judge to decide what the facts actually are. That's the job of the jury; that issue must go to trial.

  • TTM - well then I guess that it is reasonable to expect that we'll be learning more about the Rossi / Craig C relationship in the coming days.

    I still don't understand the point you're trying to make about doc #326. Its a witness list with indexed depo snippets. Rossi is overdue for submitting that same type of list.


    I also don't understand why Rossi doesn't have Penon on his witness list - seems seminal to his case but maybe I'm missing something.

  • Perhaps you are like Axil and you have avoided reading it so that you have an excuse to support Rossi. What Nixon called "plausible deniability." That's also known as willful ignorance, or refusing to face facts.


    This lawsuit is not a means to gain knowledge or a path to establish facts, it is a waste of time devoid of any truth

    I was not talking about the lawsuit. I said that your refusal to read the Penon report is willful ignorance and refusing to face facts. You blather on about Rossi this and Rossi that when you haven't even looked at Rossi's own data!

  • To give credit where it is due, I should point out that other people contributed to that document. For example, Shanahan himself wrote the section about his work.


    You mean the sentence. I did try to get a section put in explaining it, but it kept being deleted by pro-CFers, and then when I would try to get it reinstated, the pro-CFers would do backflips to keep it out. They all ended up getting banned, but I just ran out of steam (tying this to Rossi...) about editing Wikipedia. I just assumed there were more of 'them' than me.

  • I'm about half way through 326 (Cassarino depo), and it is interesting as TTM says. Not sure either side can take comfort though, as Cassarino often contradicts himself:


    He always felt Doral was the "350 day test", yet he also claimed the "2nd agreement was not valid" (GPT ) because he did not sign it.


    Says the 1MW in Doral was built by Dameron and Rossi, yet Rossi told him it was the same 1MW shipped from Italy.


    Thought the GPT was delayed due shipping damage to the 1MW, but then recounts how he played "go-between" between Rossi/TD as to why Rossi had not started the GPT yet.


    Other than that, he does shed some new light on the start (2010) of the Rossi/Ampenergo (AEG) relationship. Why Rossi delved into TDs (capture the heat from the Ecat). Failed hook-up with NASA (IP worries). Formation of Leonardo Technologies.


    Cassarino also knew early on (June 2012) that TD would form a new company (IH) to handle the Rossi tech. Cass had no problem with that, as he says he formed his AEG for the same reason..handle Rossi's tech.


    Rossi also misrepresented JMP to him, just as he did to IH. It was "affiliated with a bigger company", independent from Rossi, etc. Rossi even asked him to: "tell IH to look at the customer".


    Cass knew too, about IH's lack of success with the IP.


    So far, Cassarino comes across as very disengaged from the actual engineering aspects of the Ecat from the start (2010) of their AEG/Leonardo relationship, through to Doral, (perfect partner for Rossi :) ) and more focused on getting his "second tranche" payment from IH. Not sure Cassarino's being a witness for Rossi will help, or hurt? Stay tuned.

  • @Jed,


    You might be right that IH has irrefutable tests showing that the e-Cat doesn't work. But as you acknowledge, they're not on the record. And I happen to suspect that if they really had them, they would have put them on the record in this case. Instead, we get lots of confirmation from IH on the record that the e-Cat in fact does work, upwards of COP of 9.

    If IH really had irrefutable tests on the non-functioning of the E-Cat, they would surely have shown them. What is said in the documents published so far, however, is the testimony of positive tests. Moreover, the reactor used in Lugano was built by IH, and it worked fine. Finally, the reactor tested by Boeing was not filled with the right fuel, so in fact IH can not prove that the E-Cat does not work. Also because when they talked about this technology with Chinese and European investors they used terms of praise.

  • That old stability nonsense again? The ecats in various forms have been around for six+ years and have been tested dozens of times, albeit by idiotic methods. In no case was instability an issue for one of these tests and in no instance has Rossi or anyone else complained of instability as an issue.

    The stability question has been a problem that Rossi referred repeatedly in the early days. He has often told about reactors that have fused and reactions that suddenly triggered. Also in the first article written by the Italian and Swedish scientists they talk about a first failed experiment for the fusion of the reactor:

    "The tests held in December 2012 and March 2013 are in fact subsequent to a previous attempt in November 2012 to make accurate measurements on a similar model of the E-Cat HT on the same premises. In that experiment the device was destroyed in the course of the experimental run, when the steel cylinder containing the active charge overheated and melted."

    They do not say that they have tried to know the strength limit of the reactor (in that case it would be normal to have brought it to the fusion). They say the test has failed because the reactor fused, which implies that it was not their intention to destroy it. If the reactor had been stable, it would probably have been easy to control it without destroying it.

    And in the second article scientists have witnessed a sudden trigger of the reaction:

    "In a few minutes, the reactor body reached a temperature close to 1400°C. Subsequent calculation proved that increasing the input by roughly 100 watts had caused an increase of about 700 watts in power emitted. The speed with which the temperature had risen persuaded us to desist from any further attempt to increase the power input to the reactor."

    Even this sudden increase in temperature seems to have caught them by surprise. The E-Cat is not a simple resistor, as you would like to believe it, it is a reactor that works according to a physical principle not yet completely clear. Its instability (when present) could be a consequence of our ignorance of its principles of operation.

  • He does fake demos to defraud investors.

    These are insulting and unfounded allegations. His reactor has been tested by skilled and expert people who have declared excessive heat as "anomalous". The scientists who have tested it are now working on a replication and receiving funding from Volvo. Do you really think they're all stupid? Are you so sure you know Physics better than them? What are your skills? And your qualification?

  • He says the only proof that matters is selling working units.


    Yes, that is what he says, but he has not actually sold any working units. If his claims were true, surely he would have sold some by now.

    If you really believe that a completely new technology can be placed in the market in a short time and without a long period of testing and improvement, then you know very little about the economy and its laws.

  • The reason why nobody is scandalized is because IH does not, in fact, have a very dark past. This dark past is a figment of your imagination.

    My imagination?? Have you read the news reported by Sifferkol? The orders Cherokee has accumulated over the years are certainly not production premiums .... Judges have imposed on them to do the jobs for which they were paid and obviously they had not still done. Every time the same story: Cherokee creates an affiliate, buys a brownfield and collect funds to clean up it and then does not complete the work ..... and what about the money? You can also choose to turn around and do not look at what makes you embarrassed, but you can not deny what has been documented. I can have imagination problems, but you definitely have problems with reality.

  • Please provide a cite to something that supports this statement. Darden never claimed that the dummy produced a COP of 9. Darden recounts the dummy test story occurred in January or 2014. He went on to secure tens of millions of funding from Woodford, with the e-Cat tech being core to those investments. The readers here can ably determine whether there is an inconsistency in Darden's dummy reactor story and his later actions.

    The story of the dummy with Cop 9 is absurd and I have not found any document in which it is told. However, if it really happened, why did Darden not immediately break up relations with Rossi? Why did he continue to raise funds by showing the Doral Plant? If things really were so, then Darden would be a cheater because he would have lied to investors. Instead I think that Darden has always known that the E-Cat works and that's why he did not suggest a settlement by returning the IP.

  • So if Boeing never tested the E-Cat with the proper fuel, then the whole deposition of Jamie Childress is useless, or better, says nothing about the functionality of the device!

    Surely the Boeing test does not have any value in determining whether the E-Cat works or not. IH has never shown the reactor's not functioning.

  • It is interesting that people try to equate the 350 day testing at Doral with the GPT. After all the GPT (other than being outside the agreed timing and signed agreement) was to be 400 day test with 350 active days. That is the GPT was a 400 day test not a 350 day test.

  • Or you can read Rossi's own deposition where he claims there was an invisible heat exchanger in the mezzanine that did not show up in photos.

    The heat exchanger was dismantled at the end of the test: it is not invisible, it is simply no longer there. Who took the photos? Do the photos show all the environments from every angle? You can not prove in any way that the heat exchanger was not there, so stop expressing about it as if you possess the absolute truth.

  • I read earlier that millions of readings were taken. I presume by computer. So what is on the reports are summaries. It would be necessary to see the actual record rather than just the summaries to understand what was going on.


    I gather that the meters were sealed and some at least showed just the running totals. Some of the problems may have been just averaging these to show daily rates

    Of course, it is clear that the data reported in the report are summaries: their number is too high for them to be used directly, and it would also make no sense to do so. There are certainly many details in the report that will be explained in court. It was written by a highly competent engineer with a great experience and a remarkable curriculum. If something is not clear right away from reading it, it will certainly be explained in the right place.

  • I am wondering why the by Thomas Darden controlled IPH INTERNATIONAL B.V., NORTH CAROLINA is still (Assignment June 2016) applying for an US Patent with the data of the Lugano Report?

    https://www.google.com/patents/US20160051957

    If the Jones Day Lawyer claims before the jury that all the E-Cat tests are fraudulently faked by Rossi, how could Darden et.al. use exactly this data for an official US patent application that is still valid today and how to explain this contradiction to a normal, rational man? In my opinion this patent application had to withdraw immediately!

    Someone here wrote that for patents do not count the truth and that any thing can be patented, even objects that can not work. This is a silly thing. Many patents on Cold Fusion were rejected precisely because the Examiner felt that the phenomenon upon which the operation of the described object was based had not been recognized by mainstream science. If IH filed that patent it is because they knew they had a worth technology and an IP that they did not want to lose.

  • I also don't understand why Rossi doesn't have Penon on his witness list - seems seminal to his case but maybe I'm missing something.


    Dewey,


    Who knows...maybe legal jeopardy, or something? :) Considering Penon refused to "accept service" (10/14/16 transcript) in Italy, and only showed up for his depo in the Dominican Republic after an appeal from Rossi, it should not come as a surprise that Penon is wary.


    Wary of what though? If his report is solid, and honest, he should be proud to show up in Miami and defend it you would think. Maybe he is afraid they will expect him to show up with all that equipment he boxed up, and took with him to Italy, presumably to be checked for accuracy? Or perhaps, be asked under oath where all those emails between he/Rossi/Fabiani went? Or afraid he will be asked to explain where the underlying raw data he used in his daily "summaries" is?


    Whatever his reasons, I would suspect his no-showing will not be missed by the jury. How strange that the central character in this trial (Penon), THE ERV, upon who's report the case hinges upon, refuses to take the stand, or even to step on US soil...hmmm. Sounds real bad.


    BTW, looks too as if none of the Lugano team will show...correct? They are not listed so I presume not.

  • The heat exchanger was dismantled at the end of the test: it is not invisible, it is simply no longer there. Who took the photos? Do the photos show all the environments from every angle? You can not prove in any way that the heat exchanger was not there, so stop expressing about it as if you possess the absolute truth.

    Rossi sued IH. As plaintiff, he has the burden of proof by a preponderance of evidence. Where are his pictures or even purchase receipts? Why was the exchanger only mentioned after an unfavorable heat dissipation analysis? Why has no person except Rossi seen this exchanger?

  • It is interesting that people try to equate the 350 day testing at Doral with the GPT. After all the GPT (other than being outside the agreed timing and signed agreement) was to be 400 day test with 350 active days. That is the GPT was a 400 day test not a 350 day test.


    OG,


    Yeah, I agree. It seems everyone in the story has a different description of what Doral was. Cass says 350 day test, IH called it a test, and Rossi called it the GPT. Even we here refer to it in our own individual way.


    Contractually, under the "Term Sheet", you and I know it as a 2 year lease of the equipment to JMP.