Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

Thanks LM - now we're getting somewhere. 7.5 tons of steam pipe and not a single support or hanger hardware anywhere to be seen for the entire year. You cannot just lay that kind of system on the floor on some wooden blocks and have a manageable situation. I guess R thought he could just pop a couple of brackets in the plywood and have it stay in place a gagillion imaginary megajoules later. Even better, the R'ster expects us to believe that he hired "supermen" off the street to build and remove that fictitious behemoth? I wonder what the accountant will have to say about all of this? This conjured up farce is going to be most costly for the R'ster and his acolytes. Still having a hard time catching my breath from laughter over R's "fraudulent pictures" conflagration. He's already up to 5 gauntlets and we're only a couple of hours into the trial.

woodworker and MikeDunford : consider the possibility that Rossi lied to JD about the existence of a very large metal heat exchanger that was supposedly on the mezzanine floor of the Doral warehouse while being questioned during the pre-trial deposition. (1) What are the chances of this becoming apparent under cross examination during the trial? (2) What are the possible consequences of Rossi having lied in the deposition, in the event that this is somehow shown to be the case?

@Shane,

What really perplexes me about all of this is how little evidence IH has offered to rebut Rossi's claim about the heat exchanger. I mean, they didn't even ask their own witnesses about whether they noticed the pipes going up to the mezzanine. We know Darden, Vaughn, and gang were all there, in person, inside the warehouse, within eye shot of these areas. You didn't have to be inside the JMP walled-off area to see the bottom area of the doorway into the mezzanine. All you would have to do is look around, and remember what you saw. Was it just that nobody was paying attention to the details?

Don't you think it would have been a good idea to get your own witnesses on the record saying that they never saw any such piping, never noticed open windows in front, never noticed air blowing out the windows, never noticed any sound near the front of the building. Why has not IH rebutted Rossi's claims of a heat exchanger with such testimony. JD didn't even ask these simple questions of their very own friendly witnesses! Why? If they did, maybe they are saving it for the big event. And if they didn't, these kinds of questions better be asked of all who entered the building, or loitered in front of it. Like I said, it strikes me as extremely strange.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Shane,

Yes, I do. The photos taken apparently had obstructions and did not cover everything. They were arguing over just a hand full of photos. The interesting thing is, they were pointing to things and saying: yes, that is where one pipe comes in, the other goes out, the bypass is outside of the container, etc. In other words, there were THINGS in the photos that were being discussed. Not invisible things, but things.

Now, having said that, I'm not 100% confident about the heat exchanger: who could be? I'm guessing we'll see more come out during trial. It would be nice, for example, to see pictures of the dismantled pipes. That would be something. It would be nice to ask everyone who ever entered the building to comment on whether they saw pipes going up into the mezzanine... I mean, nobody was even asked those questions besides Rossi (at least in the deposition record that we have so far).

On the stand, these questions should be asked. Also, did anybody notice fans blowing air out the front windows? Why was nobody asked that simple question? And if they were, neither side has opted to reveal that evidence to us yet. It all seems extremely strange. It is as if both sides are hiding balls, awaiting the ultimate battle in front of the jury.

Display More

IHFB: One thing that everyone should realize is that a party seeking to call a friendly witness does not have to take their deposition. They can interview the witness, without advising the other parties, and take whatever statements they want (which generally would not be admissible as the witness should testify in person). But if I have a friendly witness, all I have to do is declare that I intent to call that person and provide a short summary of the intended testimony. This step would probably have occurred after discovery ended, so if IH has someone who will testify that they visited the room where the HE was supposed to be, when it was supposed to be, they didn't need to depose that witness. Perfectly legitimate.

Now Rossi can seek to talk to that witness prior to trial, but absent a deposition forcing the witness to appear, the witness doesn't have to talk to Rossi.

So yes, to a certain degree, both sides are hiding the ball. But, in order for a witness to testify, he generally has to be listed on the witness list turned over to the other side, along with a brief summary. That way, theoretically, the other side has an opportunity to research that witness/testimony in an attempt to impeach.

For example: let's say IH has the witness discussed above who is going to testify that on a date certain he visited the room in question and there was no HE. Rossi and his team should have done basic due diligence to make sure that the witness was not out of state/country/etc. and thereby couldn't have visited the room.

These trials are not like Perry Mason with the suddenly appearing witness/evidence. Everyone involved in the trial should have by now a good sense of what evidence each side has and what each witness is expected to say on the stand.

As to a point that was raised much earlier (I don't remember who raised it) re: demonstrations and the computer/audio/visual equipment Rossi is bringing in. Just because the Judge said ok to the the computer/audio/visual equipment doesn't mean the Judge is going to allow Rossi to put on a dog and pony show.

woodworker,

When I suggested that both sides were hiding balls, I didn't mean from each other. I meant that they are hiding balls from us. And if you think that they don't care about us (i.e., the LENR community), you would be wrong. Each party knows that the eyes of this fraction of the world is on them, and they care. The Lugano report was downloaded hundreds of thousands of times within a matter of days. The number of LENR lurkers far outnumber those of us who make our thoughts expressly known here and elsewhere. The stakes not only for the parties, but for the world, are enormous. I agree with you that by now both parties have a fairly good sense of what evidence each has. And I sure hope we get some clarification during the trial, because those who think this thing is already wrapped up, seem to me (once again) to be jumping to conclusions.

As a side note, this next week is a particularly busy one for me, so unfortunately, I'm going to have to tamp down my participation here for a little while. Best wishes to all, and may the truth prevail.

Quote from Eric Walker

woodworker and MikeDunford : consider the possibility that Rossi lied to JD about the existence of a very large metal heat exchanger that was supposedly on the mezzanine floor of the Doral warehouse while being questioned during the pre-trial deposition. (1) What are the chances of this becoming apparent under cross examination during the trial? (2) What are the possible consequences of Rossi having lied in the deposition, in the event that this is somehow shown to be the case?

1: The chances of it becoming apparent at all depend on how big an issue defence counsel want to make of it. From what I've seen, they have a real chance. Whether it becomes apparent on cross or at some other time (like closing arguments, when the attorneys explain what the evidence means) depends on many factors so it's hard to say.

2: As a practical matter, there will be no consequences other than the immediate effect on the jury.

In theory, all lies under oath are perjury, so criminal charges could be brought. In practice, they usually won't be brought. It's a very difficult crime to prove, and prosecutors generally don't find it to be a worthwhile use of time and other resources.

Quote from Eric Walker

woodworker and MikeDunford : consider the possibility that Rossi lied to JD about the existence of a very large metal heat exchanger that was supposedly on the mezzanine floor of the Doral warehouse while being questioned during the pre-trial deposition. (1) What are the chances of this becoming apparent under cross examination during the trial? (2) What are the possible consequences of Rossi having lied in the deposition, in the event that this is somehow shown to be the case?

There are no guarantees with a jury, but put yourself in the jury box. Rossi claims X (the existence of the heat exchanger), but cannot provide any evidence that it was there: no bills, no invoices, no drawings, no witnesses, etc. As a juror, do you believe him? Remember, the jury doesn't know about his past, IH/Cherokee's past, all of the things discussed on the board re: LENR, etc. The jury only knows what is put in front of them during the trial. Yes, they may have some real world knowledge, but they are not going to as familiar with Rossi, et al, as everyone here seems to be.

So, given no evidence other than Rossi's say so, and lots of negative inferences being pointed out by JD as to the absence of evidence from Rossi, DO YOU BELIEVE HIM? I think Rossi has a very difficult road here.

Now, as to your second question: if he admits or is conclusively shown to have lied during the depo, the court/US Attorney/state attorney could prosecute him for perjury. Don't hold you breath, they have better things to do. But, let's go back to you being on the jury. Rossi has either admitted or been shown to have lied: JD gets to have lots of fun now: Dr. Rossi, you just admitted you lied. Why should anyone in this courtroom believe a word you have to say about anything?

If his deposition testimony is found to be a lie, HIS CREDIBILITY IS SHOT. Would you, as a juror, believe anything he had to say? Of course not: the consequences of his testimony being a lie are that he likely loses the case.

In connection with his credibility, remember the fake company/fake invoices. He, through his attorney, told IH that Rossi HAD NO interest in the company. When asked on the stand if that is actually the truth, what does he say? Yes, I lied then, but now I am telling the truth. As a juror, how does that affect your opinion of his credibility?

This is why I predicted that Rossi would lose on the principal complaint: its the lies, the fake company, the fake paperwork, etc. If he lied about all of that, why would a juror believe him about the ERV or anything else?

Just imagine some of the questions JD will have solely as to the heat exchanger:

Who paid for the materials?

Who designed the system?

Who installed the system?

Who paid for the laborers?

Where are the receipts?

Etc., etc.

Now, let's assume that Rossi takes the position that he did it all himself, with just some day laborers. OK.

How long did it take to build the heat exchanger?

Where did you purchase the materials?

How did you pay for them? There are not checks, credit cards etc. showing those purchases during the relevant time period. Did you pay cash? How much did the pipes cost? How much did they weight? How much were the fittings, the plywood, etc. How come your financial accounts don't show withdrawals of cash sufficient to pay for these materials?

The list goes on and on. And JD has sufficient lawyers, paralegals, investigators, forensic accountants, etc. that they should have considered and researched all of those questions and potential answers, along with many more.

Let's say they ask Rossi how he paid for the materials and the labor. Well, if he has cancelled checks or credit card statements, he can easily produce them. But, it I am correct and there never was a heat exchanger (at least not as described by Rossi), what does he do then? Say he paid cash. Where did the cash come from?

No, as I have already demonstrated to my embarrassment, I am not an engineer or scientist and I don't claim to know what type of pipe Rossi allegedly purchased. But I do recall that it was supposed to be 6 inch, Schedule 40, each 10 meters long. Doing a quick and dirty search on the net, I came up with a price from Metals Depot of $20.49 a linear foot (or approximately $61 a meter). So a hundred meters of said pipe, not counting fittings, etc., would cost approximately $6,000. Add in fittings and you are probably around $10,000.

Where did that $10,000 come from? JMP was broke, did Rossi go to the bank and draw out $10,000 in cash? If so, there will be a report filed by the bank with the US Treasury Department (banks are required to report large transactions in cash).

Hopefully you can see where I am going with all of this: Jones Day is going to (or should) hammer on Rossi's credibility on every single point, and hammer and hammer.

If I am correct and there was no heat exchanger, Rossi has to come up with convincing and plausible lies, and then keep them all straight.

Quote from IH Fanboy

I don't know. I think you're grasping now. You lay the stupid pipes. You fit them together. Yeah, you've got to jump up to the mezzanine and back. Okay, so you have a vertical pipe that is coupled to one elbow near the bottom of the doorway, and another elbow on the floor of the first level, or whatever. For all we know, Rossi used Gorilla tape to secure to the walls. (And hey, if you've ever used Gorilla tape, you'll know that that stuff is amazing.) I don't know why everyone is making out these pipes to be like, the most impossible thing ever. Any lawn contractor guy could do this.

Question for the engineers: What kind of pressure and the temperature would the steam be in these pipes? I ask because when I was in high school I worked installing sprinkler, drainage and sewer lines. And I am pretty sure that most lawn contractor folks are not qualified in high pressure/high temperature work. I also note that the maximum recommended temperature for Schedule 40 PVC is 130°F, well below the boiling point, and I doubt that there are many lawn contractor guys who use 6 inch schedule 40 steel pipe for lawn systems.

Quote from IH Fanboy

woodworker,

When I suggested that both sides were hiding balls, I didn't mean from each other. I meant that they are hiding balls from us. And if you think that they don't care about us (i.e., the LENR community), you would be wrong. Each party knows that the eyes of this fraction of the world is on them, and they care. The Lugano report was downloaded hundreds of thousands of times within a matter of days. The number of LENR lurkers far outnumber those of us who make our thoughts expressly known here and elsewhere. The stakes not only for the parties, but for the world, are enormous. I agree with you that by now both parties have a fairly good sense of what evidence each has. And I sure hope we get some clarification during the trial, because those who think this thing is already wrapped up, seem to me (once again) to be jumping to conclusions.

As a side note, this next week is a particularly busy one for me, so unfortunately, I'm going to have to tamp down my participation here for a little while. Best wishes to all, and may the truth prevail.

Quote from IH Fanboy

woodworker,

When I suggested that both sides were hiding balls, I didn't mean from each other. I meant that they are hiding balls from us. And if you think that they don't care about us (i.e., the LENR community), you would be wrong. Each party knows that the eyes of this fraction of the world is on them, and they care. The Lugano report was downloaded hundreds of thousands of times within a matter of days. The number of LENR lurkers far outnumber those of us who make our thoughts expressly known here and elsewhere. The stakes not only for the parties, but for the world, are enormous. I agree with you that by now both parties have a fairly good sense of what evidence each has. And I sure hope we get some clarification during the trial, because those who think this thing is already wrapped up, seem to me (once again) to be jumping to conclusions.

As a side note, this next week is a particularly busy one for me, so unfortunately, I'm going to have to tamp down my participation here for a little while. Best wishes to all, and may the truth prevail.

Of course they are hiding the ball from us and the outside world. The litigation strategy is driven by the lawyers. Their job is to win the case. Why would you think that they give a rat's ass about us or whether or not we should know all the facts. Their audience is the judge and the jury, not us. We may have opinions, but we are not sitting in the jury box. As far the lawyers are concerned, this is not a high profile, ENRON or OJ type case where you are trying to sway public opinion, this is a basic contract dispute that Jones Day handles every day of the year. This may be important to some on this board and to lots of lurkers, etc., but JD doesn't give a damn what we think.

@ww,

This was not high-pressure steam. And the comment about the lawn guy was my (apparently ineffective) use of rhetoric. The point is, it isn't rocket science to lay some pipes. $10k is nothing in the grand scheme of things. A couple of day laborers and you get it all put up or taken down in a day or two. Dewey and others make it sound like putting up and tearing down these pipes is like constructing and dismantling the Eiffel tower.

Rossi said there was an accounting for the purchases. You say that IH would have followed up on that and checked out the purchases, looked at bank accounts, credit card statements, etc.--and I agree they should have done that: and if they did, they have not refuted Rossi's statement yet on the accounting. Shane would say au contraire, it is Rossi's job to prove that there is an accounting. Well, I think Shane has a point too. The funny thing is, neither side has really cast any significant light on the primary issues at play in this case so far. Let's see what they put up during trial.

Edit: I agree that JD could probably care less what we think. But I can guarantee you that IH cares. Why do you think Dewey hovers here like a helicopter parent?

Quote from woodworker

Question for the engineers: What kind of pressure and the temperature would the steam be in these pipes? I ask because when I was in high school I worked installing sprinkler, drainage and sewer lines. And I am pretty sure that most lawn contractor folks are not qualified in high pressure/high temperature work. I also note that the maximum recommended temperature for Schedule 40 PVC is 130°F, well below the boiling point, and I doubt that there are many lawn contractor guys who use 6 inch schedule 40 steel pipe for lawn systems.

Speaking as a nationally certified pipefitter. low pressure pipe will use A105 carbon steel piping. High pressure would use A106 (seamless) carbon steel piping. You would not need stainless steel for a short duration system (3 years is short for industrial piping) unless your heat exchanger was exchanging heat with a corrosive chemical. The piping should be welded where possible because steam leaks will quickly cut steel. From what I saw in the deposition, I would assume that it is a low pressure system. Flanged connections should be with a metal gasket. Valves should be flanged gate valves. You could have a ball valve for quick stopping and starting of flow but it needs to be a specialty valve rated for steam usage and should have a gate valve backup. Contrary to what others have said, Home depot would not have any of this material but all of it except for any control valves in the system would readily available at an industrial pipe supply although there might be a couple of month lead time on the 180 degree elbows because they are rarely used and might have to be preordered. Although not exceptionally large, the total order would be two or more 40 foot trailer loads and need a significant staging area. Including prefabrication, the job would take more than a month for a crew of 10 working 40 hours a week*. If I were planning this job, I would have a crew of 1 supervisor, 1 expeditor, 1 laborer, 1 fork lift/crane operator (on this small of a job, frequently the supervisor will also perform this task), 2 pipefitters, 2 helpers, and 2 welders. The exchanger is listed as being encased in a wooden insulated box so you would need to hire 2 carpenters and 2 insulators after the piping is finished. Note that this does not make any sense because that would keep you from losing the heat that you built the exchanger for unless it is a weird design using enclosed forced ventilation. I find it impossible to believe that IH would not notice that kind of duct work and fan system along with the accompanying high velocity air flow. The system is supposed to be computer controlled but Rossi and the other 2 engineers could probably hook up any control systems.

*My estimate is based on minimal piping and does not include supporting because I have no idea what kind of supports are needed. A concrete floor could be supported in a day or two. Wooden flooring that needed extensive bracing could add weeks to the job.

*I believe the exchanger would take at least 2 months from start to finish with the crew described. My more than a month estimate involves everything going perfectly. As a rule of thumb, all jobs take about 50% longer to complete than a planners handbook indicates. Something always goes wrong in the job that slows you down. For example, there might not be enough clear space to get a 10 meter pipe in the space. This would suddenly increase the number of welds in the base exchanger piping by 50%.

*Proper piping outside the actual exchanger would probably add 1 to 2 weeks to the job.

IH Fanboy

Yes, a crew of 3 could probably dismantle the piping in less than a week but it would not be in any condition to reuse afterward. Rossi stated he dismantled the piping for reuse. It takes a lot longer than you think to salvage welded piping for reuse. It also takes a lot longer than you think to field weld 6 inch piping. On average, a pipefitter, helper, and welder is going to get 2 six inch field welds in a 10 hour day, 3 if they are lucky. Even in a fabrication shop setting, you are only going to make 4-5 6 inch welds in a 10 hour day.

Quote from WMartin

Contrary to what others have said, Home depot would not have any of this material but all of it except for any control valves in the system would readily available at an industrial pipe supply although there might be a couple of month lead time on the 180 degree elbows because they are rarely used and might have to be preordered.

Rossi did say that the piping and materials were purchased from another supplier besides Home Depot, and that in addition some materials were purchased from Home Depot.

Curious as to what your estimate would be for tear down time? I'm assuming considerably less.

Quote from WMartin

it needs to be a specialty valve rated for steam usage and should have a gate valve backup.

Remember, when Rossi was asked during his deposition from where he got the butterfly valve (which supposed to open the bypass line to the heat-exchanger), he said that it was fabricated on site... What a handyman this Rossi is...

Quote from Forty-Two

Remember, when Rossi was asked during his deposition from where he got the butterfly valve (which supposed to open the bypass line to the heat-exchanger), he said that it was fabricated on site... What a handyman this Rossi is...

And he described in some detail how this is done. You must remember, Rossi comes from a blue-collar background. His family heritage is one of blue-collar industrialist / entrepreneur types. He isn't a country bumpkin.

Edit: if you all haven't read An Impossible Invention by Mats Lewan, I highly recommend that you do. You will gain a much deeper insight into who Rossi is.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Rossi did say that the piping and materials were purchased from another supplier besides Home Depot, and that in addition some materials were purchased from Home Depot.

Curious as to what your estimate would be for tear down time? I'm assuming considerably less.

Just getting in there and rip it out with a torch or bandsaw: 3-4 days for three or four people. That does not include patching and fixing walls and floors.

Taking it out carefully for maximum saving of piping and fittings: Up to two weeks, Could be less but I would have to walk the site because I have no way of knowing how big of pieces I can remove and whether or not I can get a crane or forklift to assist me. Still does not include fixing the place back up afterwards.

Quote from WMartin

On average, a pipefitter, helper, and welder is going to get 2 six inch field welds in a 10 hour day, 3 if they are lucky. Even in a fabrication shop setting, you are only going to make 4-5 6 inch welds in a 10 hour day.

A Guide Line For Estimation of manpower (For Above Ground Piping - page 5 )

http://www.projectbaseline.in/…(In_Dia_and_In_Meter).pdf