And he described in some detail how this is done. You must remember, Rossi comes from a blue-collar background. His family heritage is one of blue-collar industrialist / entrepreneur types. He isn't a country bumpkin.
Edit: if you all haven't read An Impossible Invention by Mats Lewan, I highly recommend that you do. You will gain a much deeper insight into who Rossi is.
Sure.... and in case you or Mats or Rossi himself tells me that Rossi can walk on water, I will certainly believe 
Display MoreShane,
Yes, I do. The photos taken apparently had obstructions and did not cover everything. They were arguing over just a hand full of photos. The interesting thing is, they were pointing to things and saying: yes, that is where one pipe comes in, the other goes out, the bypass is outside of the container, etc. In other words, there were THINGS in the photos that were being discussed. Not invisible things, but things.
Now, having said that, I'm not 100% confident about the heat exchanger: who could be? I'm guessing we'll see more come out during trial. It would be nice, for example, to see pictures of the dismantled pipes. That would be something. It would be nice to ask everyone who ever entered the building to comment on whether they saw pipes going up into the mezzanine... I mean, nobody was even asked those questions besides Rossi (at least in the deposition record that we have so far).
On the stand, these questions should be asked. Also, did anybody notice fans blowing air out the front windows? Why was nobody asked that simple question? And if they were, neither side has opted to reveal that evidence to us yet. It all seems extremely strange. It is as if both sides are hiding balls, awaiting the ultimate battle in front of the jury.
It's so funny, all the plethora of mere "coincidences", misfortunes, and/or conspiracies where any positive proof are always absent, such as out of many photos they juuuuuuuuuuuust missed by inches taking one of the fathom heat exchanger that would provide irrefutable evidence; but what's even funnier (or ridiculous) is your "logic" that this absence of proof is indeed proof.
Display MoreSpeaking as a nationally certified pipefitter. low pressure pipe will use A105 carbon steel piping. High pressure would use A106 (seamless) carbon steel piping. You would not need stainless steel for a short duration system (3 years is short for industrial piping) unless your heat exchanger was exchanging heat with a corrosive chemical. The piping should be welded where possible because steam leaks will quickly cut steel. From what I saw in the deposition, I would assume that it is a low pressure system. Flanged connections should be with a metal gasket. Valves should be flanged gate valves. You could have a ball valve for quick stopping and starting of flow but it needs to be a specialty valve rated for steam usage and should have a gate valve backup. Contrary to what others have said, Home depot would not have any of this material but all of it except for any control valves in the system would readily available at an industrial pipe supply although there might be a couple of month lead time on the 180 degree elbows because they are rarely used and might have to be preordered. Although not exceptionally large, the total order would be two or more 40 foot trailer loads and need a significant staging area. Including prefabrication, the job would take more than a month for a crew of 10 working 40 hours a week*. If I were planning this job, I would have a crew of 1 supervisor, 1 expeditor, 1 laborer, 1 fork lift/crane operator (on this small of a job, frequently the supervisor will also perform this task), 2 pipefitters, 2 helpers, and 2 welders. The exchanger is listed as being encased in a wooden insulated box so you would need to hire 2 carpenters and 2 insulators after the piping is finished. Note that this does not make any sense because that would keep you from losing the heat that you built the exchanger for unless it is a weird design using enclosed forced ventilation. I find it impossible to believe that IH would not notice that kind of duct work and fan system along with the accompanying high velocity air flow. The system is supposed to be computer controlled but Rossi and the other 2 engineers could probably hook up any control systems.
*My estimate is based on minimal piping and does not include supporting because I have no idea what kind of supports are needed. A concrete floor could be supported in a day or two. Wooden flooring that needed extensive bracing could add weeks to the job.
*I believe the exchanger would take at least 2 months from start to finish with the crew described. My more than a month estimate involves everything going perfectly. As a rule of thumb, all jobs take about 50% longer to complete than a planners handbook indicates. Something always goes wrong in the job that slows you down. For example, there might not be enough clear space to get a 10 meter pipe in the space. This would suddenly increase the number of welds in the base exchanger piping by 50%.
*Proper piping outside the actual exchanger would probably add 1 to 2 weeks to the job.
Yes, a crew of 3 could probably dismantle the piping in less than a week but it would not be in any condition to reuse afterward. Rossi stated he dismantled the piping for reuse. It takes a lot longer than you think to salvage welded piping for reuse. It also takes a lot longer than you think to field weld 6 inch piping. On average, a pipefitter, helper, and welder is going to get 2 six inch field welds in a 10 hour day, 3 if they are lucky. Even in a fabrication shop setting, you are only going to make 4-5 6 inch welds in a 10 hour day.
Rossi, nor IHFB, have enough practical knowledge to understand that fabricating such a large heavy heat exchanger is not like the Home-Depot small pipe, tubing, insulation and tape-mummified crude tabletop "demos" and "prototypes" that Rossi concocted. In addition to your excellent outline above, they did all that installation, and removal (requiring some significant rigging to manage pipe that heavy (unless the cut it all up into 3'sections (a big job in itself))) in a cramped, limited-access, un-airconditioned second floor, with Rossi and some day-laborers, with nary a bit of evidence left behind--not even a hole or dent in the wall!
If I were the lawyer, I'd haul a 3' section of that pipe into the courtroom and have the jurors (and/or Rossi) try to pick up the 60 pound short piece, and then have them imagine dragging up pieces 10 times as long and heavy into their attic in the summertime, manipulating, cutting, welding etc with Rossi and a couple of helpers. Rossi should have made his story more believable by stating that the pieces were rigged thru his invisible quick-change glazing system on the windows.
No trees were harmed by hot air from Doral.
Surprising, given the very large amount of hot air from the Rossi camp
How can a "docent i kärnfysik" specialized in nuclear measures (and strangely working in an "Analytisk kemi" dpt.) transmute some Swedish glacier water into ice wine?
Intriguing question to be settled in the next weeks, post lemonade.
That's kind of cool. Fulvio working with the Uppsala team now... (Roland Pettersson). Interesting.
WMartin - it is good to know that a certified pipefitter is following this story. You have provided incredibly interesting information.
The shear volume of the set-up and teardown (two tractor trailer loads of material!!),the special parts / leadtime requirements and the lack of evidence for any supporting hardware are most helpful observations and make a lot of sense. Rossi is going to fry on the stand trying to pull this off.
At Uppsala we have in effect now all rotten eggs in one basket.
The Swedes have shown themselves collectively to be highly unprofessional, or highly incompetent, or both. But not rotten.
Specifically, they have not defended a paper published and criticised methodologically (which cannot be defended but on the other hand is not at all definitive) and then criticised because of specific mathematical errors in their calculation methods, with both the wrong and correct calculations laid out, where the correct calculations show no excess heat, no acceleration in excess heat.
They have been informed of the second, more cogent, criticism, directly by e-mail from its author (TC said here) before it was published, and chose not to comment privately or publicly. They have also not retracted the original report.
Whatever legal etc reasons they may have for keeping a low profile, they were informed of this a long time before any question of legal action. Therefore not to respond or retract shows either extreme incompetence - where they do not properly read a critique of their own work, or unprofessional behaviour where in spite of knowing work to be incorrect they do not retract it.
That they seem (and semblances in this story are often misleading) to remain interested in the possibility of such a device working says volumes for their gullibility, but nothing for the liklihood of this being true.
Everyone here knows this, some choose to ignore it.
Display MoreSpeaking as a nationally certified pipefitter. low pressure pipe will use A105 carbon steel piping. High pressure would use A106 (seamless) carbon steel piping. You would not need stainless steel for a short duration system (3 years is short for industrial piping) unless your heat exchanger was exchanging heat with a corrosive chemical. The piping should be welded where possible because steam leaks will quickly cut steel. From what I saw in the deposition, I would assume that it is a low pressure system. Flanged connections should be with a metal gasket. Valves should be flanged gate valves. You could have a ball valve for quick stopping and starting of flow but it needs to be a specialty valve rated for steam usage and should have a gate valve backup. Contrary to what others have said, Home depot would not have any of this material but all of it except for any control valves in the system would readily available at an industrial pipe supply although there might be a couple of month lead time on the 180 degree elbows because they are rarely used and might have to be preordered. Although not exceptionally large, the total order would be two or more 40 foot trailer loads and need a significant staging area. Including prefabrication, the job would take more than a month for a crew of 10 working 40 hours a week*. If I were planning this job, I would have a crew of 1 supervisor, 1 expeditor, 1 laborer, 1 fork lift/crane operator (on this small of a job, frequently the supervisor will also perform this task), 2 pipefitters, 2 helpers, and 2 welders. The exchanger is listed as being encased in a wooden insulated box so you would need to hire 2 carpenters and 2 insulators after the piping is finished. Note that this does not make any sense because that would keep you from losing the heat that you built the exchanger for unless it is a weird design using enclosed forced ventilation. I find it impossible to believe that IH would not notice that kind of duct work and fan system along with the accompanying high velocity air flow. The system is supposed to be computer controlled but Rossi and the other 2 engineers could probably hook up any control systems.
*My estimate is based on minimal piping and does not include supporting because I have no idea what kind of supports are needed. A concrete floor could be supported in a day or two. Wooden flooring that needed extensive bracing could add weeks to the job.
*I believe the exchanger would take at least 2 months from start to finish with the crew described. My more than a month estimate involves everything going perfectly. As a rule of thumb, all jobs take about 50% longer to complete than a planners handbook indicates. Something always goes wrong in the job that slows you down. For example, there might not be enough clear space to get a 10 meter pipe in the space. This would suddenly increase the number of welds in the base exchanger piping by 50%.
*Proper piping outside the actual exchanger would probably add 1 to 2 weeks to the job.
Yes, a crew of 3 could probably dismantle the piping in less than a week but it would not be in any condition to reuse afterward. Rossi stated he dismantled the piping for reuse. It takes a lot longer than you think to salvage welded piping for reuse. It also takes a lot longer than you think to field weld 6 inch piping. On average, a pipefitter, helper, and welder is going to get 2 six inch field welds in a 10 hour day, 3 if they are lucky. Even in a fabrication shop setting, you are only going to make 4-5 6 inch welds in a 10 hour day.
How big would such a system be? Could it be easily hidden from all the photos? It seems that 600 feet of pipe would end up being seen in the photos. Especially the six inch pipes with insulation at the bottom of the doorway.
I believe (too lazy to look it up) Rossisaid he dismantled the HE system the morning after the reactors were shut down (2/17/2016). Pretty fast, and good timing too, as Murray was in there later that day and probably would have noticed, or not noticed.
... "Rossi comes from a blue-collar background. His family heritage is one of blue-collar industrialist" specialized in hand-made Cottrell / electrostatic smoke precipitators.
Mezzanine is roomy. Why not a Cottrell magnetic impulse generators to boil rotten eggs, too?
Remember van Bogaert patent and the skill of Italian people to produce fakes (and sell it for millions):
Why did [Dewey] photoshop away the publishing year/date of the journal??
go pull the St Andre' article from the original Corriere Della Sierra archives... They will find that your photoshop spin is yet another lie
if you pull up that article in from the archive of the Italian paper, you are likely to find those blanked out squares there already.
Are you sure about that, Eric?
http://archivio.corriere.it/Ar…uwM4AOeAMbdc2HjzpgAvgF0gA
Although to be fair, it does seem like the white boxes are covering blank areas of the page...
It's so funny, all the plethora of mere "coincidences", misfortunes, and/or conspiracies where any positive proof are always absent, such as out of many photos they juuuuuuuuuuuust missed by inches taking one of the fathom heat exchanger that would provide irrefutable evidence; but what's even funnier (or ridiculous) is your "logic" that this absence of proof is indeed proof.
There were only three photos. Maybe there were a couple of others mentioned, but the discussion between Rossi and Pace centered on a mere three available photos from the JMP side. You're not going to get a panoramic with three photos, especially considering all of the objects that could obstruct the view.
Rossi, nor IHFB, have enough practical knowledge to understand that fabricating such a large heavy heat exchanger is not like the Home-Depot small pipe, tubing, insulation and tape-mummified crude tabletop "demos" and "prototypes" that Rossi concocted. In addition to your excellent outline above, they did all that installation, and removal (requiring some significant rigging to manage pipe that heavy (unless the cut it all up into 3'sections (a big job in itself))) in a cramped, limited-access, un-airconditioned second floor, with Rossi and some day-laborers, with nary a bit of evidence left behind--not even a hole or dent in the wall!
If I were the lawyer, I'd haul a 3' section of that pipe into the courtroom and have the jurors (and/or Rossi) try to pick up the 60 pound short piece, and then have them imagine dragging up pieces 10 times as long and heavy into their attic in the summertime, manipulating, cutting, welding etc with Rossi and a couple of helpers. Rossi should have made his story more believable by stating that the pieces were rigged thru his invisible quick-change glazing system on the windows.
Take a look at the serpentine pipe constructed and fitted within the JMP container. This is well within Rossi's capacity to do.
Are you sure about that, Eric?
http://archivio.corriere.it/Ar…uwM4AOeAMbdc2HjzpgAvgF0gAAlthough to be fair, it does seem like the white boxes are covering blank areas of the page...
Not sure at all. But the burden is on Wyttenbach to substantiate his throwaway accusations of fake news, photoshopping and fraud.
Take a look at the serpentine pipe constructed and fitted within the JMP container. This is well within Rossi's capacity to do.
That serpentine pipe actually looked well done. Way to lazy to find the picture. I'll leave it to the engineers to argue whether it was appropriate or not. My comments have mostly been designed to show that the exchanger system would take longer than people think and is a pretty significant project. I have noticed that people focus only on the exchanger itself. The total system would likely be 800 to 1000 feet of piping, not just the 650 feet in the exchanger itself.
Er Rends - these are the pictures that Rossi took inside the JMP container when the Florida safety inspectors were onsite.
He has also wrapped himself around the axle himself on the picture source as well - another day, another gauntlet for the R'ster.
Display MoreSpeaking as a nationally certified pipefitter. low pressure pipe will use A105 carbon steel piping. High pressure would use A106 (seamless) carbon steel piping. You would not need stainless steel for a short duration system (3 years is short for industrial piping) unless your heat exchanger was exchanging heat with a corrosive chemical. The piping should be welded where possible because steam leaks will quickly cut steel. From what I saw in the deposition, I would assume that it is a low pressure system. Flanged connections should be with a metal gasket. Valves should be flanged gate valves. You could have a ball valve for quick stopping and starting of flow but it needs to be a specialty valve rated for steam usage and should have a gate valve backup. Contrary to what others have said, Home depot would not have any of this material but all of it except for any control valves in the system would readily available at an industrial pipe supply although there might be a couple of month lead time on the 180 degree elbows because they are rarely used and might have to be preordered. Although not exceptionally large, the total order would be two or more 40 foot trailer loads and need a significant staging area. Including prefabrication, the job would take more than a month for a crew of 10 working 40 hours a week*. If I were planning this job, I would have a crew of 1 supervisor, 1 expeditor, 1 laborer, 1 fork lift/crane operator (on this small of a job, frequently the supervisor will also perform this task), 2 pipefitters, 2 helpers, and 2 welders. The exchanger is listed as being encased in a wooden insulated box so you would need to hire 2 carpenters and 2 insulators after the piping is finished. Note that this does not make any sense because that would keep you from losing the heat that you built the exchanger for unless it is a weird design using enclosed forced ventilation. I find it impossible to believe that IH would not notice that kind of duct work and fan system along with the accompanying high velocity air flow. The system is supposed to be computer controlled but Rossi and the other 2 engineers could probably hook up any control systems.
*My estimate is based on minimal piping and does not include supporting because I have no idea what kind of supports are needed. A concrete floor could be supported in a day or two. Wooden flooring that needed extensive bracing could add weeks to the job.
*I believe the exchanger would take at least 2 months from start to finish with the crew described. My more than a month estimate involves everything going perfectly. As a rule of thumb, all jobs take about 50% longer to complete than a planners handbook indicates. Something always goes wrong in the job that slows you down. For example, there might not be enough clear space to get a 10 meter pipe in the space. This would suddenly increase the number of welds in the base exchanger piping by 50%.
*Proper piping outside the actual exchanger would probably add 1 to 2 weeks to the job.
Yes, a crew of 3 could probably dismantle the piping in less than a week but it would not be in any condition to reuse afterward. Rossi stated he dismantled the piping for reuse. It takes a lot longer than you think to salvage welded piping for reuse. It also takes a lot longer than you think to field weld 6 inch piping. On average, a pipefitter, helper, and welder is going to get 2 six inch field welds in a 10 hour day, 3 if they are lucky. Even in a fabrication shop setting, you are only going to make 4-5 6 inch welds in a 10 hour day.
Many many thanks for the detailed analysis. I always suspected welding was more difficult that it seemed. I guess Gorilla tape might not have been adequate to the task.
Rossi, nor IHFB, have enough practical knowledge to understand that fabricating such a large heavy heat exchanger is not like the Home-Depot small pipe, tubing, insulation and tape-mummified crude tabletop "demos" and "prototypes" that Rossi concocted. In addition to your excellent outline above, they did all that installation, and removal (requiring some significant rigging to manage pipe that heavy (unless the cut it all up into 3'sections (a big job in itself))) in a cramped, limited-access, un-airconditioned second floor, with Rossi and some day-laborers, with nary a bit of evidence left behind--not even a hole or dent in the wall!
If I were the lawyer, I'd haul a 3' section of that pipe into the courtroom and have the jurors (and/or Rossi) try to pick up the 60 pound short piece, and then have them imagine dragging up pieces 10 times as long and heavy into their attic in the summertime, manipulating, cutting, welding etc with Rossi and a couple of helpers. Rossi should have made his story more believable by stating that the pieces were rigged thru his invisible quick-change glazing system on the windows.
Give him time!!
QuoteEdit: if you all haven't read An Impossible Invention by Mats Lewan, I highly recommend that you do. You will gain a much deeper insight into who Rossi is.
Reading Lewan's epic tome is mostly a waste of time. Almost everything he says about Rossi is what Rossi told him or published on the internet, in other words, Rossifiction. Lewan does not have a single critical bone in his entire body. It would be hard to find a more gullible person unless it were Sterling Allan, but you won't be able to find him for a decade or so because he is in jail for self-admitted child molesting. The bulk of Lewan's book, when not reciting Rossi fables or his own mis-measured incompetent experiments, is a charming travelogue. Don't waste your time. I regret that I did.
Insight into who Rossi is? ROTFWL! You don't need much insight to know who Rossi is. Just examine his past record in newspaper reports (not Rossi web pages). It's entirely composed of failures, lies, broken promises, impossible projections, implausible behavior and scams -- at least three rotten, expensive scams, each of which cost honest people and governments millions of dollars each. THAT is who Rossi is. And it's pity the jury won't know it because nobody took the time and effort to charge him with those crimes except the Italian government, which did not do it very well.
Hey Woodworker, I don't suppose Rossi's Petroldragon scam, the one that polluted an entire Italian province, could be entered into evidence? Anyway it was probably too long ago and it is too complicated and argued over for a jury to sort out. Apparently, under Italy's legal system, Rossi was convicted, then sentenced, served time, then partly acquitted on appeal, then recharged, then statues of limitations expired, But he was indeed convicted of felonies -- illegal gold trading and tax evasion, IIRC. Krivit has all the details on his web site: http://newenergytimes.com/v2/s…al-Criminal-History.shtml
So in a civil trial, I am curious to know, can you bring in prior convictions for criminal activity that might be related to the case at hand? How about prior scams, even if they did not result in criminal charges or lawsuits?
I know this is repetitive to the regulars but new people brought in by the trial activity may not know.
