Nearly 10,000 posts...Much Ado About Nothing...I wonder how much money IH spent in producing all that Ado in this thread. It's time for all the lawyers to go home.
Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]
- barty
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We are not in the dark regarding the technical claims. The discovery phase revealed a tremendous amount of technical information. We know more about the 1-year test than we know about many legitimate cold fusion experiments. We know for sure that it was fraud.
Yes, of course. Thanks for emphasizing that. But think how much more we would have learned about Rossi's other frauds, manipulations, lies, and general chicanery had the trial proceeded to completion.
And there is the remote chance that Rossi may be able to bamboozle some more.
One can hope that believers in general and the LENR community (including the "blind mice" and "usual suspects") actually learned something. For example, they may have learned to suppress their desire in favor of better and clearer experiments. But know what? I doubt it.
Brillouin is probably next up for specious claims. And what have Miley and Swartz and Hagelstein actually produced lately? Are they next to get IH money? How about it Dewey? Can any of that be revealed?
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From my experience IH legal fees were/are 10 times those of Rossi, IH would have to have a strong incentive to settle.
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I wonder if Rossi's lawyer's accepted stock in the Quack-X as payment for their legal fees, versus having Rossi sell his condos....(the former is highly doubtful). In fact, it's probable that Rossi's lawyer's finally talked some sense into him that they were in a heap-o-trouble if he decided to continue to try to explain his his tales in court.
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The docket, on the other hand, will be available indefinitely via PACER; any transcripts from recent hearings, opening statements, etc will probably become available for purchase via PACER over the next 90 days.
It would seem worthwhile to try to get the transcripts into the public domain before the expiry date.
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Well of all things, our old homeboy Rennzzee just sent over this masterpiece as a settlement present. I was wondering what happened to him. I'll be signing off soon but had to share this beauty before check out time:
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It would seem worthwhile to try to get the transcripts into the public domain before the expiry date.
Sorry, I think I was unclear. Transcripts are an exception to the usual rule of immediate online availability. The court reporters, who are in part compensated through the sale of transcripts, get a 90-day exclusive window. During that time, transcripts must be purchased directly from the court reporter and tend to be pricey. After 90 days, the transcripts may be purchased on PACER like any other document (except that the .10/page cost isn't capped at $3.00 like other filings.) Once on PACER, they remain available indefinitely, and may be purchased at any time.
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Just wondering if this can possibly mean that the e-cat saga can be declared over. Of course not, but think about how much of the story revolved around the American partner and AR's move to the US and hiring a team of workers. It's all over now. AR will continue to say things on his blog, some of them will be regarded as grand, world changing statements by his followers. But for everyone else, the e-cat will never come to light. It will simply be a dialogue between AR and his followers, with the world at large not caring or noticing at all.
AR will talk about potential new investors and partners, but what investor shows up with a smile on their face and a check in hand after this fiasco? There's too much baggage. AR is likely on his own for the foreseeable future. He walked away with a cool $10 million. I don't feel bad for him at all. My last two cents are that people looking for an energy miracle should look some place else.
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AR is likely on his own for the foreseeable future.
I would not assume that. PT Barnum has addressed this situation in greater detail.
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But think how much more we would have learned about Rossi's other frauds, manipulations, lies, and general chicanery had the trial proceeded to completion.
I know little about the law, but my understanding is that all of the evidence has to be included in the docket and case files before the trial starts. If that is how it works, a historian or journalist such as Abd can wade through the whole mess and find the frauds, manipulations, lies, etc. that would have been revealed during the trial.
I agree it would have been amusing to read Rossi testifying about "'negotiations' that he held with himself over leasing. contracts between Leonardo and Platinum American Trust," as sigmoidal put it. But it would be expensive amusement, and we would not have learned anything that is not already on the record.
Here is an important point. There is nothing of a technical nature on the record justifying Rossi's wild claims. Put aside the contract disputes and the fraud with fake customers. Look at the parts of this case that pertain only to calorimetry and science. You see that Rossi never even tried to make a case. His whole strategy was to insist that Penon is an expert, and that makes him right, so pay me $267 million. The whole thing was predicated on that one report. And what a report it is! It is so bad that Rossi supporters such as Axil will not even look at it. Rossi tried to shore it up after the fact with the invisible 15,000 pound heat exchanger. His supporters do not even realize that the heat exchanger would have to be in the Penon report to give the report any scientific legitimacy. You cannot leave it out and expect anyone to believe the claim. Any sensible person will see at a glance that the heat would kill the observers.
Technically, Rossi had no case, introduced no evidence, and neither he nor Penon could have testified to anything of scientific interest. They had nothing to say! You can see from the Penon report that their claims were preposterous nonsense. From a scientific point of view, what more do you need to know? Okay, from a human interest point of view, or as a study of venture capitalism gone wrong, there is a lot to learn from the docket. I confess I have not read most of it, because I find it painful to read.
As I said, I have learned a lot from seeing people here react to the Penon report. I suspect that many Rossi supporters have not actually read it. Axil admits that -- heck he brags about his willful ignorance. Others clearly don't understand it. But many people who should have known better read the Lugano report and the Penon report and found nothing wrong with them. That's mind boggling. And discouraging. Who thinks it is okay to calibrate halfway up to the power level you intend to use?!? Who would use an IR camera without comparing it to a thermocouple? It reminds me of how the U.S. Army and Navy dismissed the possibility of a Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, despite abundant evidence that it might happen. Heck, in the last hour, they ignored the radar images of the attacking aircraft. I begin to understand how they could be so stupid.
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I'll be signing off soon but had to share this beauty before check out time:
Wow! Someone did a lot of work on that.
It is more believable than the Penon report.
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Sorry but, with respect, you guys are rubbish at speculation.
If you want to get some proper, out of its box and romping across the prairies speculation, you need to go to ECat World.
The Alice in Wonderland domain where global warming is a conspiracy and E48 and Sifferkoll are kings and Rossi has had a magnificent triumph. They will be celebrating long into the night.
For my speculation I start with the point that Rossi initiated this, IH did not want it.
Efforts by various parties failed to reach settlement, again I surmise it was Rossi who continued to drive the case in the hope of whatever payoff he thought he could get. Then right in the courthouse we get a settlement.
From the view it was Rossi that blocked any settlement then it follows it was Rossi who allowed the settlement when it became a clear IH was not going to give any more without the trials of a court case.
I note that Abd says Lukacs asked to confer with Pace which is suggestive, but not conclusive, of the Rossi side initiating the settlement.
Of course the above is tame speculation, I could be wrong.
On the other hand.
Maybe IH paid the $89million.
Maybe Rossi's lawyers finally talked some sense into him regarding the risk.
Maybe Rossi played this to the edge then walked away with a smile.
Maybe Darden is a Martian who would melt if he put his hand on a bible.
Maybe now Rossi will finally get his Nobel prize for con artistry.
Maybe the ECat is real .... ooops sorry went a bit far there.
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As I said, I have learned a lot from seeing people here react to the Penon report. I suspect that many Rossi supporters have not actually read it. Axil admits that -- heck he brags about his willful ignorance. Others clearly don't understand it. But many people who should have known better read the Lugano report and the Penon report and found nothing wrong with them. That's mind boggling. And discouraging. Who thinks it is okay to calibrate halfway up to the power level you intend to use?!? Who would use an IR camera without comparing it to a thermocouple? It reminds me of how the U.S. Army and Navy dismissed the possibility of a Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, despite abundant evidence that it might happen. Heck, in the last hour, they ignored the radar images of the attacking aircraft. I begin to understand how they could be so stupid.
Rossi did not stink from the start but very soon after. I first read the reports of his early tests (maybe in the Vortex email list) in early 2011 and this much cited NyTeknik Levi test: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter…energi/article3108242.ece I thought, "Wow! Someone solved cold fusion and with only nickel, hydrogen and a secret catalyst! How cool is that?"
And then, very quickly, the possible errors in steam calorimetry in the Kullander, Essen and Lewan demos and Levi's lack of documentation were brought up on Vortex and I thought, "Surely Rossi will remedy these issues and quickly." My first doubt started with the Krivit-Levi interview on Youtube -- here is a typical one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN289NOs6Mk and I thought again that the problems would fixed by Rossi and fast. Then I started reading his so-called JONP. Of course, this waas a misnamed shitty blog and not a real journal, as the title implied. And it was filled with impossible and contradictory claims. Finally, the oddity of Rossi's purchasing a PhD degree from a diploma mill influenced my thinking. And then, Jed Rothwell and I (and IIRC some others) worked out a clearcut unequivocal method to test the original ecat. We were willing to travel to Italy and conduct an independent test on our money (at least I was). And Rossi turned it down flat. Asked for calibrations, he refused saying he already knew what blank control experiments would show!
I won't bore you with more but there was much more. And by the time Defkalion started their arrogant, deceptive and abusive forum and silly claims in mid 2011 (if memory serves), I was absolutely sure it was a fraud. That was years before the Lugano test. I was absolutely astounded that anyone believed Rossi past the totally fiascal "demo" of the megawatt plant in October 2011 when he ran his "plant" on a huge diesel generator and had the result certified for a mystery military "customer" by an equally mysterious "NATO colonel" (whatever that is). That guy, who could never be found again, much less interviewed, was probably a Rossi friend, maybe from an Italian prison, or perhaps just a bit actor who Rossi hired.
The point of all that is that you need extend your outrage and disbelief BEFORE Lugano and Penon. The whole smelly Rossi story reeked of fraud at least from October 2011 and maybe before. I can not understand why IH and Darden/Vaughn did not review that stuff or if they did, why they saw fit to give Rossi $10M for more crappy and useless testing. Someone should challenge them on this and also Woodford at a shareholder meeting, if they have such things.
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Sorry but, with respect, you guys are rubbish at speculation.
If you want to get some proper, out of its box and romping across the prairies speculation, you need to go to ECat World.
The Alice in Wonderland domain where global warming is a conspiracy and E48 and Sifferkoll are kings and Rossi has had a magnificent triumph. They will be celebrating long into the night.
Sigh. As Martin Fleischmann said, we are painfully conventional people. We lack imagination. As Benjamin Franklin put it:
"Perhaps the history of the errors of mankind, all things considered, is more valuable and interesting than that of their discoveries. Truth is uniform and narrow; it constantly exists, and does not seem to require so much an active energy, as a passive aptitude of soul in order to encounter it. But error is endlessly diversified; it has no reality, but is the pure and simple creation of the mind that invents it. In this field, the soul has room enough to expand herself, to display all her boundless faculties, and all her beautiful and interesting extravagancies and absurdities."
—Benjamin Franklin, Report of Dr. Benjamin Franklin, and Other Commissioners, Charged by the King of France, with the Examination of the Animal Magnetism, as Now Practiced in Paris (1784)
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I wonder if Rossi's lawyer's accepted stock in the Quack-X as payment for their legal fees,
They may be greedy and, some would say, conscienceless or incredibly technically inept, but they are not THAT dumb. I suspect they asked for cash. Probably a lot of it in advance!
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Wow! Someone did a lot of work on that.
It is more believable than the Penon report.
Apparently Rends? (Dewey speak for: 'Renzzzeee') If so:
Rends, nice work, cowboy! That was pretty entertaining.
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Zeno - "I note that Abd says Lukacs asked to confer with Pace which is suggestive, but not conclusive, of the Rossi side initiating the settlement."
Yes. And the fact that it was Rossi that brought on the case for $89 M, and although IH counter suit, they were just defending so as to not have to pay the $89M. No suit is a win for IH. Rossi walked away from his suit that would have given him $89M though he claimed the device worked and he was correct with everything.
It seems fairly clear that it was Rossi that yielded and lost his attack on IH.
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I know little about the law, but my understanding is that all of the evidence has to be included in the docket and case files before the trial starts. If that is how it works, a historian or journalist such as Abd can wade through the whole mess and find the frauds, manipulations, lies, etc. that would have been revealed during the trial.
I agree it would have been amusing to read Rossi testifying about "'negotiations' that he held with himself over leasing. contracts between Leonardo and Platinum American Trust," as sigmoidal put it. But it would be expensive amusement, and we would not have learned anything that is not already on the record.
Here is an important point. There is nothing of a technical nature on the record justifying Rossi's wild claims. Put aside the contract disputes and the fraud with fake customers. Look at the parts of this case that pertain only to calorimetry and science. You see that Rossi never even tried to make a case. His whole strategy was to insist that Penon is an expert, and that makes him right, so pay me $267 million. The whole thing was predicated on that one report. And what a report it is! It is so bad that Rossi supporters such as Axil will not even look at it. Rossi tried to shore it up after the fact with the invisible 15,000 pound heat exchanger. His supporters do not even realize that the heat exchanger would have to be in the Penon report to give the report any scientific legitimacy. You cannot leave it out and expect anyone to believe the claim. Any sensible person will see at a glance that the heat would kill the observers.
Technically, Rossi had no case, introduced no evidence, and neither he nor Penon could have testified to anything of scientific interest. They had nothing to say! You can see from the Penon report that their claims were preposterous nonsense. From a scientific point of view, what more do you need to know? Okay, from a human interest point of view, or as a study of venture capitalism gone wrong, there is a lot to learn from the docket. I confess I have not read most of it, because I find it painful to read.
As I said, I have learned a lot from seeing people here react to the Penon report. I suspect that many Rossi supporters have not actually read it. Axil admits that -- heck he brags about his willful ignorance. Others clearly don't understand it. But many people who should have known better read the Lugano report and the Penon report and found nothing wrong with them. That's mind boggling. And discouraging. Who thinks it is okay to calibrate halfway up to the power level you intend to use?!? Who would use an IR camera without comparing it to a thermocouple? It reminds me of how the U.S. Army and Navy dismissed the possibility of a Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, despite abundant evidence that it might happen. Heck, in the last hour, they ignored the radar images of the attacking aircraft. I begin to understand how they could be so stupid.
Generally, material which you want to have admitted as evidence has to be produced has to be produced in discovery, but also generally most discovery is not part of the docket or is filed prior to the actual trial. For example, excerpts from numerous depositions have been included as parts of motions, responses, etc., but there is no actual requirement that an entire transcript of a deposition be put into the record. Further, as Mike D has pointed out re: the blogs, each piece of material sought to be introduced as admissible evidence has to be shown to be admissible. I am certain that there are lots and lots of information in each of the depositions that would not have been admissible. For example, a standard question at the beginning of every deposition is whether or not the deponent has taken any medications or alcohol in the preceding 12/24 hours. This is asked to make sure that the deponent is mentally alert enough to fully participate in the deposition. Those questions and answers generally would not be admissible at trial, as completely irrelevant.
But to specifically address materials that would be admissible evidence, I am certain that there is a great deal, probably on both sides, that was never included in any filing but that would have been included in discovery. For example, I have speculated that there was no documentary evidence to support Rossi's allegation that there was a heat dissipation device. I could have been wrong and maybe Rossi had cancelled checks, etc. to support his position. Those would have been turned over to IH as part of the discovery and would almost certainly be admissible (provided that the proper foundation, authentication, etc. were satisfied), but they need not have been included in any filing prior to the settlement.
As I write this, an interesting speculation came to mind: we know from the fake invoices that Rossi has little problem creating false documents. What happens if, post-settlement, he creates fake checks, etc. and then publishes them as part of his explanation of why IH settled? The settlement agreement has a confidentiality provision. If Rossi had failed to turn over the checks, etc. as part of discovery and IH knows the checks, etc. are fake, could IH reasonably claim that Rossi had breached the settlement agreement by publishing alleged reasons for IH's agreement to settle and could IH therefore publish the entire settlement agreement if they so desired? I don't know the answer to that.
Whilst on the subject of publishing the settlement agreement, I wonder what are the damages provision of the settlement agreement. If someone leaks the settlement agreement, what are the damages to either party? If the settlement agreement shows Rossi walked away with nothing but a complete dismissal of the all the claims (principal, counter and third party), Rossi would, I am sure, argue reputational damage and assert that the leak affects his ability to raise money from investors. Given what has been publicly disclosed, I don't see how his reputation could be further damaged with investors or the general community - once you have been shown to be a liar, further accusations of lying may not be defamatory. Similarly, I don't think disclosure would damage IH's reputation - they are not coming out of this smelling like a rose, primarily because IMHO they got took by a conman.
I don't really see any provable actual damages to either party, so, absent a liquidated damages clause for breach of the confidentiality obligations, I don't see any recovery for either party resulting from a breach by the other side.
Having said all that, I see no incentive for either side to be the first to breach - to me it only makes sense to disclose as retaliation or to take any legal action unless there is a liquidated damages clause.
Mike: any thoughts? I am sure that I am missing something.
