Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

    Quote from JedRothwell

    IH did not want the test in the first place. If they had tried to stop it, they knew Rossi would walk away. By the time the test began they had tested Rossi's devices extensively and they knew that none of them worked. The test was a last-ditch, Hail Mary effort. It did not cost them much. As they said, if there is even a 1% chance left that it might work, why not let Rossi try for a year.

    Back in 1990, after the F and P announcement, it seemed clear to me that a lot of the criticism they received came from other scientist that were envious of their discovery. Could some of this be going on here, Jed?

    Lewan on Ecat world


    Quote

    Another interesting piece (there's just too much material at the moment)—Craig Cassarino telling how Ampenergo tried to make IH understand that they needed to bring in tech people to get a meaningful collaboration and IP transfer going with Rossi (207-12, pp 192-193). And this is the impression I have got over time—IH never bothered to bring in competent expert on technology and engineering ('They were money men,' as Cassarino put it). Meaning that they either didn't understand how to build a technology venture, or they were never even interested to develop and industrialise Rossi's technology. You could also think that they only wanted to provide funding as a VC and let Rossi run R&D and going to market (which they should understand that an inventor alone usually is not capable of), but in that case, why would they bother about IP transfer?


    Another clue that IH was only wanting to rise money and make it disappear. The have not foreseen that the technology is actually working.

    Quote from zorud

    anotherTroll - your attacks on everybody who shows any sign on not believing Rossi and his fake opera at Doral are miserable and speak for itself. What is your own opinion on Rossi? You seem to fully support his agenda to sue IH without asking any question to him or yourself. Rossi is the poor and honest guy that needs help because he was fallen in the hands of robbers, evil investors and bloodsuckers? You should be fair and analyze both sides to understand why most people here came to the conclusion that Rossi is a conman.

    It seems to me that the Rossi haters here are beginning to foam at the mouth. I'm just not sure why they have become so rabid about putting down anyone who does not agree with them. It smacks of desperation on someone's part, perhaps IH's.

    Quote from zorud

    It is interesting to note or I'd better say sad, that a couple of Rossi trolls seem to have identified their new playground here.


    Oh no, stop whining zorud! What is the point of being an IH-troll if there is nothing to troll about? :)

    ele

    Let me get this straight you are think that Joshg and TBIU are skeptics (or TBIU is a hyper-skeptic)? You have to be joking. There is some other thing you are trying to say so say it. And make it plain. It is possible that someone can disbelieve in how Rossi conducted himself over the last 1.5 years but still believe in Ni-H based CF so come on, out with it. I think you are being disingenuous now. You have been here posting long enough, what are you reaching for?

    I read people here - that I do not agree with but I certainly try to understand their positions. I will also research them so I understand how they came to that view point. So what are you looking for?


    Edit: I see after the post from TBIU that TBIU was being sarcastic. I missed that post TBIU. I find you very sincere and passionate in your beliefs. I find the same with Joshg. I am sorry if I misunderstood that. ele you are different you are a dookiehead.

    Two isssues:


    a) during the weekend a new document 226 was placed on the docket of the Miami court

    Rossi party asking for sanctions against IH based on the darden deposition plus two hearings. Possible some new revelations?


    b) My friendly appeal for seriousness to IH supporters remains with no answer- and it is natural to be so, they have volatuile proofs and these canot be addaed up in a good SCENARIO

    there are only some details which can be viewed as as 'suspect" and that do not ad up:


    Two SCENARIOUS possible for them :

    - ERRORS- bad instruments, bad measurements

    or

    - FAKE RESULTS- the ERV Report data not coming from instruments-measurements but invented


    In both cases, the zeroth Axiom of IH MUST be


    ZERO EXCESS HEAT, always in all Rossi experiments. No alternative to this.


    Peter

    PS I bet there will be no scenarios except that of Jed Rothwell- "results total fake" But for Jed it would be sane then to abandon the wise teachings of Joe Murray as 40mm steam pipe and flow meter half full- which are proven to be false.


    Peter,


    Sigmoidal made a useful comment a while back (sorry no direct reference but he will forgive this I'm sure) to the effect that discussion here on this topic that leads to heated comments could accurately be conducted by separating the different matters of interest:

    • Legal situation
    • Darden/Rossi/etc psychology and motivation
    • Does Ni-H LENR work?


    The latter can usefully be differentiated:


    5. Does (any) Ni-H LENR effect exist?

    4. Have Rossi's devices ever shown (some) Ni-H LENR effect

    3. Have Rossi's devices ever shown claimed commercial levels of LENR effect

    2. Has the one-year test shown >4X COP LENR effect

    1. Has the one-year test shown the ERV claimed >50X COP LENR effect.


    Rate your level of skepticism according to the first question in this list you think is most likely answered by "No". If you answer all questions yes than you are not even level 1 skeptic. If you answer all no you are a level 5 (full) Ni-H LENR skeptic. Jed would I guess on this scale be at least a level 3 skeptic, possibly 4 or 5. How do you rate?


    Regards, THH

    Quote from ele

    Lewan on Ecat world



    Another clue that IH was only wanting to rise money and make it disappear. The have not foreseen that the technology is actually working.


    ele,

    The technology using the Doral plant can not work by definition. Regardless of Matts or anyone else.


    So many others here have done the thermal analysis. People (on both sides) have tried to check and are still debating the calorimetry. Now people are trying to figure out how much heat could be piped up to the second floor. But you know, I am a skeptic but not a false one. I believe what I say.

    I try to do the research.

    I started out today to work on something different from an other thread it was Lipinski but that takes both time and concentration. So while I ponder- this I go back to Rossi and the E-cat. I always ask myself "How could this work?" Looking at the creation of platinum sponges from the googles search (they look like a cylinder with a sponge inside) I looked at what it takes to create one historic-link-on-what-is-required-to-produce-sponge-READIT. This is just basic Platinum Black but I went on and on. The info is not exactly transparent to find, correction this "process to create sponge" is hard to find but is available. I started with a search of Johnson Matthey patents going back to the 1960's on sponges . Then I looked at section on black platinum on wikipedia. If I continued to post on this (I spent hours it is fascinating) but it would be too long and not suitable for this forum. Check any link on what chemicals would be required to cook platinum to the specifications that would be needed to supply a real client with ANY platinum sponge or the more importantly the purity needed for any product. There would be the bi-weekly tractor trailer dropping off hazardous supplies. These trucks by definition would require DOT hazard warning signs on them. Each truck has a manifest, each manifest is a DOT public record. To cook them requires acids (well and platinum). So we are done with whatever product he was producing. Just get on with how big the airflow out of that second story window is. This is the short version of the post, not the long one.

    Quote from Roseland67

    Fanboy,


    You're not going to wait for the quark X to be available to the market because that won't work either and you know it.


    If the Ecat worked as stated we could all do that, but it doesn't does it?


    OMG! Your sense for logic deductions and ways to use it almost takes on metaphysical properties :)


    or is it something else, more closely related to stupidity, who knows?

    ultrasure ,

    I have hope in BEC. Leaving IH alone for a second. They (BEC) need to get above noise and they know that. And I am being helpful here. SRI is not to juggaloes in a minivan they are quite honest and square []. They are reporting the truth. But for BEC to be real this needs to be above noise level. They deserve the funding, and for sure they deserve better than to be in the Rossi going to court thread. If BEC is faking each and everyone of the tests, well I do not believe it, so comparing them is apples and scoundrels here. And SRI is the better judge than I look at what and how they test. But that is apart from this saga. Sorry if that is harsh.

    Dear THH,

    Systematization, taxonomy is good in principle but i this case it's a bit late...

    Let's see:


    Legal situation

    The duration of the litigation is already almost equal to that of the Test and by definition the "GPT or not GPT question ahd to be decided till now, a litigation with no legal object has no reasons to continue. It lasted a year (the Test) and it was made based on a contract, it was not paid

    and this lead to the Trial. Everybody cold be more

    satisfied if, after 10 days of zero excess heat IH had smartly and honestly told arrivederci to their former ally.


    Darden/Rossi/etc psychology and motivation


    The Trial is a job for legal people not psychologists

    so this is interesting but not relevant. However, IH people having no real roofs re the plant and the Process are putting emphasis on this, character assassination of Rossi and of everybody not accepting the IH point of view sotheir aim is not to demonstrate that the plant has NOT produced exess heat but to "expose Rossi in perpetuity to the US Court for what he really is". But if the Plant has worked?


    Does Ni-H LENR work?


    A negative answer to that, implying Piantelli- Focardi, Mills first years, Lugano, Parkhomov and all repilcators etc.- excludes the possibility and raison d'etre of a discussion, no common language.


    I have told early (1992) that CF is taking place in

    active sites and is a form of catalysis; the dynamics of the surface atoms of the metal play a key role.

    What Rossi has invented is LENR+ a process in which the active sites are generated continuously

    and this leads to multiplicative excess heat while the other have a static process with pre-formed active sites and additive excess heat.

    Nobody seems to think the same- but for me theoretically the Rossi Process exists.

    For realist and pragmatist people the merit of Rossi is he liberated the Genie from the bottle, created actionable prameters for LENR and has conquered new territories for LENR.


    I do not want to discuss this with people driven by hatred to Rossi who are extending this hatred to any Rossi supporter and, dreadful to say to NiH LENR itself- pathlogical thinking...


    peter

    That is interesting Peter.


    You could on my scale be a Level 3 Ni-H skeptic, or could drop lower since you are unclear as to what you consider most probable about Rossi's stuff. Your comments re the legal situation and psychology are noted. They seem fairly sitting on the fenceish.


    Level 3 skepticism is quite a lot, and many people here who view Rossi as a liar and scoundrel would be the same.


    So I guess the reason you seem so strongly a Rossi supporter is your concern not to be seen (as I guess you see many here) to be driven by hatred of Rossi, and concern perhaps that Rossi-bashing may affect the view people have of Ni-H LENR more generally.

    Peter Gluck ,

    You are not addressing me but ....I would like to respond if I may. I do not hate Rossi, I still have a big issue with the E-cat. You may have never read this before now but in the past I supported Rossi and Ni-H (I am aware of ongoing promising studies). I have also defended you also before in "age" related issues with Abd and will continue to do so. Your words and ideas stand on their own. Not some self determination that I have, try to understand this.

    So what is the pathological thinking? I think (well "we" all think at this point that I can see) want this settled in the court. Whether or not Rossi has the goods scientifically has been decided quite beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind. But that is not case before the court is it? Each and everyone of us here can help me see reason. I just have higher expectations than Rossi' says. You should not dismiss another point of view, I do not and will not. See my post above on why there can not be a product even with a fictitious customer.

    Quote from axil

    they used Rossi to extract $250 million from other investors.

    1. Some links and proof that IH "extracted" $250 million. I have not seen such and have seen no evidence that any IH investor is unhappy with IH. Perhaps unhappy with Rossi! So please some backing on this statement.


    2. I do support open science and have donated to MFMP more than once, if it makes a difference to you. But I doubt it.


    3. Of course I support making money. I would not be able to pay my bills if I did not make money. The economy would fail if there was no exchange of value for services rendered. There is a reason why Microsoft is the largest operating system in the world and Linux is not..... (It is not because Microsoft is the best operating system in the world either!) It is because Microsoft made money at it and Linux did not. I am not saying it is a perfect world or that I would not even like to see it different. It is simply the way it is. "You need money to make money" (At least in serious amounts)


    So Rossi has been proven a deceiver by the court documents and his own words. (3 units sold a year ago and now none. Endothermic process and now a big heat exchanger. No customer, no chief engineer, etc. etc.) You accuse IH with what? Please show the links or examples, not just opinion.


    I am not sure what your intended meaning of the other two points (open source / money) was to be. Perhaps you can better explain as I do not understand them.

    Thanks.

    I am soooo close to perma-banning a couple of accounts whose arguments are no more complex than "IH are getting their money's worth from Apco here." If you cannot make a real argument and must resort to attacking forum participants, this forum will not miss you, even if you have above-average intelligence.

    Quote from Rionrlty

    It seems to me that the Rossi haters here are beginning to foam at the mouth. I'm just not sure why they have become so rabid about putting down anyone who does not agree with them. It smacks of desperation on someone's part, perhaps IH's.


    Rionrlty banned for two weeks. Take some time away, go read the newspaper, get some perspective, and perhaps some manners.

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