Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    Yeah, heated air. Those pipes could easily convey all of the steam, which would be far in excess of 20 KW of heat. So, let's think, think think: maybe those pipes were conveying steam not air.


    And from the right vantage point, those white steam wisps constantly rising from the building (that don't show up in Google and that nobody has mentioned seeing) could also account for those white thingy's in the mezzanine window that look like cloud reflections in glass but aren't because Rossi said that's where he blew out all the heat and sucked in all the fresh air with his big electric fans (that were powered by a separate secret source because otherwise there would be more electric consumption than observed).


    Did you have any Dictionary items to contribute?


    Always good to have you around, IHFB.


    And I do wish you an awesome Friday evening.

    I go (roughly) by Vortex rules : "suspend disbelief" and "see where the evidence takes you".


    http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.html


    Note

    Quote from interested observer

    More than five thousand blog posts arguing about the details of a device which, in all probability, will turn out to be fictitious. Extraordinary!


    It is interesting to me that the IH supporters here are quick to line up behind anti-LENR posters. And IH have been quick to line up anti-LENR (or at least LENR know-nothing) experts. We are witnessing true matches made in heaven.

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    There is an enormous lack of engineering common sense from the people accepting these measurements.


    Temperature just over b.p. does not mean dry steam, does not mean no fluid flowing, there is no need for the fluid and steam components to be in equilibrium at the point where the temperature is 103. That is supposing you believe the pressure and temperature figures. Either could be wrong through mis-siting of sensors. I'm not sure if physical evidence remains of this, Apparently (amazingly) the temperature measurement was a thermometer stuck in a hole. But, maybe the other temp measurement - which we never saw was more professional. So little definite info about this test it is almost misleading to do any speculation based on the Penon report values.


    Difficult perhaps to get over in a Court just how bad this setup is.


    Murray had no qualms with the temperature readings. He said so (to that effect) in his deposition.

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    For someone who assumed pressure indicated a "perfect" vacuum

    0.0 bar is a perfect vacuum. That's what's it is called, in ordinary colloquial English. You sometimes redefine things to mean whatever pops into your mind, but most people would call 0.0 bar a perfect vacuum. Yes, we all know it has more matter per cubic meter than interstellar space does, but if the instrument shows a zero to every significant decimal place, that's as perfect as it comes.


    In real life, this number, along with all of Rossi's other numbers are perfect bullshit, not a perfect vacuum. As Smith put it:


    "Mr. Fabiani’s pressure and temperature data are reported to four decimal places. This would lead one to believe that the instrumentation used was capable of measuring pressure to 1/10,000 of a bar and temperature to 1/10,000 of a degree C. This is some serious research grade instrumentation." Document 235-10, p. 31


    (Note to I H Fanboy: He was kidding. Actually, those numbers are fake, along with steadily increasing cumulative power on the day when the electricity was turned off, shown on the same page. Doesn't stuff like that make you wonder?!? I am amazed that you just accept every single thing Rossi claims, without question.)

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    Murray had no qualms with the temperature readings.

    He definitely did have qualms, but in any case, he also said there is no way you can tell whether the fluid was liquid or steam. That's the main thing. The nitwit lawyer kept pressing the issue, and Murray kept saying, "it isn't that simple." The lawyer was a stupid as Peter Gluck is when he insists that the pressure must have been 1 atmosphere. Anyone can see it could not have been! There would be no flow. How difficult is that to understand? Who could overlook such a thing? Plus, there has to be some back pressure from the pipes and from condensate. Anyone who has ever heard of a kitchen pressure cooker knows the temperature could easily be higher than 103 deg C with liquid water. I learned that in third grade, for crying out loud! Who didn't learn that?!? YOU, and Gluck, that's who.


    Smith's conclusions on p. 27 are irrefutable. Proved by elementary, textbook thermodynamics and common sense.


    "1. There was no steam flow from the E-cat to the black box, based on both a pressure difference analysis and a heat transfer (temperature difference) analysis. In fact steam flow (other than de minimus amounts to warm the piping) was impossible with the configuration at the time of the validation period. Thus, any steam flow numbers appearing in Mr. Penon’s report are not valid, therefore the whole report is invalid.


    2. If there were a heat exchanger and cooling fans in the mezzanine, there is absolutely no physical evidence of their existence.


    3. Because of anomalies in the reported data which violate the laws of thermodynamics, and major discrepancies between Mr. Fabiani’s data and Mr. Penon’s data, the data reported by Mr. Penon must be viewed with extreme skepticism.


    4. Only the four BF units were running during the majority of the validation period. At times, some units were down for repair or maintenance. Their combined maximum “steam” output is 482 KW thermal. Despite this, Mr. Penon reported significantly higher produced energy numbers for the entire test. It is the author’s opinion that the produced energy numbers in Mr. Penon’s report are incorrect and therefore, his entire report is invalid.


    5. It is the author’s opinion that the water flow numbers found in Mr. Penon’s report were not generated by condensate returning from the black box. The alleged steam and condensate system was in reality a hot water flow circuit using the Grundfos pump to circulate the water through the piping and the water meter. Because of this, any “steam” flow numbers in the Penon report are fictitious and the whole report must be invalidated.


    6. As the photos of the BF units illustrate, there are no superheaters, thus there can be no superheated steam. Because of this, Mr. Penon’s reported steam temperature numbers are not valid, thus his whole report is invalid."


    If Engineer48, Gluck or you imagine you have found an error in any of these conclusions, that only proves you know nothing about grade-school level science. It proves you are victims of the Dunning-Kruger effect, described by John Cleese of Cornell U., here:


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    Quote from IH Fanboy

    Note


    It is interesting to me that the IH supporters here are quick to line up behind anti-LENR posters. And IH have been quick to line up anti-LENR (or at least LENR know-nothing) experts. We are witnessing true matches made in heaven.


    What is your definition of an anti-LENR poster? LENR would be wonderful for all - who do you think is anti it?

    Quote from JedRothwell

    As Smith put it:


    "Mr. Fabiani’s pressure and temperature data are reported to four decimal places. This would lead one to believe that the instrumentation used was capable of measuring pressure to 1/10,000 of a bar and temperature to 1/10,000 of a degree C. This is some serious research grade instrumentation." Document 235-10, p. 31


    My opinion of Smith falls daily. The data is probably read off an ADC (Analog-digital converter), which, off-the-shelf will be a specified number of bits ... eg 8,12,16 -- or is selected by software "%4d". The "four decimal places" is an artifact of the read-out, not the accuracy of the sensor. The last 2 digits are probably random noise.

    Likewise he made a smart-ass comment about the flow-meter not reading 27,123 kg .. which he should have known to be impossible, since it only displayed in 1,000 increments.

    @Jed,


    Anyone who would suggest that 0.0 bar indicated a perfect vacuum (and not gauge pressure or barg) and trumpeted that around the forums, is probably attempting to obfuscate the situation, since we all know the e-Cat was not installed in outer space (at least yet).

    The nonsense about "anti-LENR" people continues. How can you be against LENR? If you are not convinced it exists, that does not equate to opposition to it. As THHuxley says, you'd have to be nuts to not want LENR to be real.


    More pointedly, who exactly are IH supporters? It still isn't clear or even plausible that IH is a real company as opposed to a shell corporation created for the purpose of funneling funds. Based on their track record, they are also extraordinarily inept and sloppy in their dealings. So who supports them? If the definition is someone who thinks that there isn't a chance in hell that Rossi will collect a fat wad of cash from them in this absurd lawsuit, then I am sure many people fit. If the definition is someone who admires and respects them, the list is painfully short.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    If Engineer48, Gluck or you imagine you have found an error in any of these conclusions, that only proves you know nothing about grade-school level science.


    For crying out stinking loud! (Sorry, but I really enjoy using Jedisms.)


    Smith's analysis doesn't even match the extant photos. You clearly haven't even read E48's analysis, which does.

    Quote from Alan Fletcher

    My opinion of Smith falls daily. The data is probably read off an ADC (Analog-digital converter), which, off-the-shelf will be a specified number of bits ... eg 8,12,16 -- or is selected by software "%4d". The "four decimal places" is an artifact of the read-out, not the accuracy of the sensor. The last 2 digits are probably random noise.

    He knows that! He was joking. He made several other engineer/nerd witty comments in his reports. This my favorite:


    "The only access to the mezzanine is a rickety wooden stairs, which the attorneys made this author climb first (load test) before they would use it."

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    Smith's analysis doesn't even match the extant photos. You clearly haven't even read E48's analysis, which does.

    1. Some of those photos came from Europe and other configurations.

    2. He doesn't know what the photos show. He guessed wrong in several cases.

    3. Some of his assertions such as 2 short tubes being enough to cool 1 MW of steam are nuts.

    4. He doesn't even address how the heat would get out of the building if the steam magically condensed in those tubes.

    5. His assertions don't even match elementary physics, as I said.

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    Anyone who would suggest that 0.0 bar indicated a perfect vacuum (and not gauge pressure or barg)

    Of course 0.0 bar indicates a vacuum! By definition it does. If you mean to indicate gauge pressure, you are supposed to write "0.0 barg." Writing "0.0 bar" was either a mistake or the instrument was broken. I pointed that out dozens of times. OBVIOUSLY I never claimed that the machine was actually in a perfect vacuum. Nobody thought that, although you and some other claimed the magic machine in the pretend customer site is in a vacuum -- which is ridiculous.

    Have you run the numbers of the utility bill consumption by the "customer" and Rossi's claimed fans? I would love to see those.

    How do the numbers look when you throw in that pump? are there any days on the bills that high?


    I wonder how the "customer" dumped the heat so uniformly with the variations in the weather and the day/night temperature swings.

    I wonder if we can see the barometric pressure swings in the raw data if the instruments can tet to 10E-4 Bar.

    Quote from Alan Smith

    It matters not a bit if the pump and/or diverter valve is positioned before or after the filter, though before would be usual.

    Since a filter is a resistance to the flow, which causes a pressure drop (when there is flow), and since the Grundfos pump needs a positive pressure on the suction side - about 5ft water column, see table 2B in the installation manual...

    http://s3.supplyhouse.com/prod…es/UPS15-58FC-install.pdf

    ... it may matter where (before or after a pump) a filter is installed, in particular in configuration where you don't have a "pressurized system".


    BTW: The required NPSH (about 5ft water column) is a good indication that the whole serpentines must have been filled/full with water, otherwise this pump wouldn't have worked (would have cavitated)

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