Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

    @ Eric Walker,


    a premise. You used twice the word "innocent". This is not a law court. I don't want to make any accusation. All of us use energy. We are using it in such amount and quality that nobody in the future will be able to have the same, but we need it to survive in this society, so all of us are guilty, and innocent at the same time. All I would like to understand are the facts, the role of the people and organizations involved in this affair, and how much conscious they were of the reality of the facts. Nothing more.


    Quote from Eric Walker

    I find (4) somewhat improbable, because there would have to be a lot of collusion/collaboration between different parties to pull it off

    Yes, there have been many different parties involved in the Ecat affair, but only a few of them would need to be aware of the intimate nature and of the real purposes of this initiative. This is because among those who collaborated to carry it out there are a lot of different motivation of much lower level, for instance of psychological nature. As JR reminded on Vortex (1), "scientists believe whatever you pay them to believe." Well, probably not everybody, hopefully a minority. But it means that if you allocate a certain budget for whichever research, you will find for sure so many available scientists to spend the entire budget. So, in order to carry on an hypothetical farcical initiative you have just to control an appropriate budget, and little more.


    Quote


    you seem to want to get the University of Bologna in trouble for getting caught up in all of this, but my own impression is that its role seems to have been as an unwitting and largely innocent bystander.


    No, that's not my aim. I'm very sorry that this affair involves an Italian university. But the problem is much more wider. It doesn't specifically affect the UoB, it involves the whole academic e scientific world engaged in the research for an energy breakthrough. Think to the flop of the NIF initiative, or to the misrepresentation of the performances of the large tokamaks such as ITER, as recently denounced by Krivit (2).



    But here we are talking about the Ecat, and, unfortunately, all the scientific confidence in the reliability of its performances has been provided by members of the Physics Department of UoB. Even today, 6 years after the demo, some people still appeal to the scientific authoritativeness of Focardi, or to the credibility of the first Levi tests.



    These scientists (not only those in Bologna) are the vanguard of the humankind, they should show the right track, and correct themselves immediately as soon as they realize that they were wrong. Did it happen?



    (1) http://www.mail-archive.com/vo…@eskimo.com/msg97821.html

    (2) http://news.newenergytimes.net…1/12/the-selling-of-iter/

    Mr. SS. Why I do not think the E-cat works I admire your enthusiasm. I hope that if Rossi can not succeed with the E-cat you do not give up on CF. No buts....



    Jed,

    Rossi can not strangle cold fusion, though he will probably cause a dip in funding as more VC's learn of this debacle. It has not died in 25 years just ebbs and flows.

    We have a strong DIY group people such as the MFMP who are committed to using scientific method. No, it's not going anywhere. In fact it is causing more research like CMNS.


    My speculation is since it is a civil trial, one side will offer to settle. But this trial is quite unexpected in that he has tenacity. I would also imagine Rossi is persona non grata in Italy though. Maybe he as convinced himself it works,if only you "let him be the man behind the curtain".


    wp84552171_01_1a.jpg

    Rigel,


    I would like for Rossi to somehow prove that the test at Doral wasn't a total fraud (my thinking is that at the core there was excess heat and some manufacturing of at least limited quantities of something), figure out a way to survive the court case, and move on to put the Quark X on the market so they can be used in thousands of applications. This would be Rossi succeeding with the E-Cat. I sincerely believe this will happen, because I'm convinced the E-Cat technology as a whole works even if Andrea Rossi has been shady and manipulative.


    However, lets say he was exposed during the trial as perpetuating a total hoax at Doral, committing fraud, hiring an actor to help him commit fraud, and lying about everything. Then, as a result of all this coming out, he lost everything and potentially ended up in prison. This would be an example of Rossi NOT succeeding. And, in this case, he would NOT deserve to succeed. However, even in this circumstance, the E-Cat technology and the Rossi Effect could survive without the inventor. In this hypothetical situation (which I think is not likely) the replicator community and other parties could figure out how to maximize hydrogen absorption (along with other issues), conduct successful tests, and then share the results with the whole world. Waves of replications would follow in which reactors self stained for hours at a time -- just like Rossi claimed all of his systems from the very start were capable of.


    But in the very unlikely event that all the "successful" replicators so far were mistaken, all of the replicators working privately come out to say they found nothing, and no replication effort is able to produce high powered Ni-H, there is NOTHING else I feel worthy of giving my attention to in the LENR sector. That could change in time -- if a company like Unified Gravity Corporation were to produce an actual product -- but as of right now Ni-H is the only technology I think is close to commercialization.

    http://www.mail-archive.com/vo…@eskimo.com/msg42873.html

    Quote

    [Vo]:List of Rossi 18-hour test parameters

    Jed Rothwell Tue, 22 Feb 2011 07:10:12 -0800

    Code
    A source close to the recent 18-hour test of the Rossi device gave me the
following figures. These are approximations.

    Mr. SS.

    It is a civil trial he is not going to prison under the current circumstances. (though Dewey would like to get some alone time with him :cursing: )

    He may surprise us, I also do not think that the Judge will ask him to prove the e-cat works, just that he proves his case. The judge will not allow any of his prior history into the trial, so petrodragon is not going to be involved. His gold adventure is also not going to be involved. Only the e-cat. Regarding the test, the JMP involvement will be part of the case, and it could be a deal breaker for him that may cause him to settle with IH. I think that IH will write down the 10 million as I imagine they are looking at some steep bills from their lawyers. It is a business for them as VC's and often they just write it off. Who knows?


    He may be exposing himself to tax liability but again that is not related to the case. I am sure you just followed the MFMP test run, Bob G. was in contact with ME356 during the run. While me may still have to wait for a final report, I paid some attention to it and did not see anything other than a spike or two. Since they are doing a better job than Rossi with following scientific method they are who you should consider believing in them regarding NiH based CF. I mean it is not prudent to put all the eggs in one basket. If Rossi's technology works I find it interesting that IH has abandoned him, while at the same time supporting several others in the field. It is also somewhat telling that they have only given BEC a one time small grant.

    Rigel,


    I only had very minimal interest in the MFMP test run. Once I heard the setup, protocols, fuel ingredients, and so forth, I came to the conclusion it probably wouldn't produce significant results. Hydrogenating nickel is more complex than just pumping hydrogen at high pressure in with the nickel at fairly low temperatures. If Me356 was in contact with the MFMP, I doubt he would give them any assistance or useful information beyond what he already provided on this forum. He won't share it with this community -- after he promised to repeatedly -- so I don't think he will give away any useful information to the MFMP. The folks at the MFMP work hard and have built many sophisticated test systems. However, like most of the LENR community, I think they are failing to produce results because they are not giving adequate attention to optimizing hydrogen absorption into the nickel. If this is not optimized, I don't think there is any significant chance of excess heat or emissions to be measured. I think they would have a greater chance of success building a half dozen Model T type systems (you can read about them on Looking for Heat), trying many different methods and techniques to optimize hydrogen absorption, and then running many test simultaneously. Some combination of annealing, vacuuming, acid etching, ultrasound irradiating, pre-hydrogenating with various reverse spillover catalysts, pulsating with pressure/heat, and other techniques should do the trick for a specific size/shape/purity of nickel powder. Once that is achieved -- which may take some work -- I think they could run a hundred different successful tests optimizing the excess heat by adding lithium and other elements.


    Again, I think part of Rossi's paranoia was the simplicity of his so called "secrets." Until he started getting serious about EM stimulation, most of his "secret sauce" was just the techniques he used to get hydrogen into the nickel.

    • Official Post
    Quote from MrSelfSustain

    I personally think Dr. Levi is trustworthy -- although I've never met him in person. Over the years I've only heard good things about him -- except for various accusations on this forum and a few other places on the net. Do I think he is infallible? Of course not. But I think the chance that he would intentionally deceive anyone about performance of an E-Cat or analysis of a sample is extremely low.


    MrSS,


    Dewey dropped a bombshell on us last night when he told us that the Lugano reactor IH built, was painted after being shipped from their NC facility. That of course was not noted in Levi's Lugano report. If true, of course this would reflect very badly on Levi, but to be fair, at this point Dewey's remark can be classified as hearsay. Same goes for his other bombshell last night, that Boeing tested the Ecat for/with IH, and it did not work for them either.


    There were other Lugano controversies though, regarding some decisions Levi made as the leader of the testing team. The e issue has been beaten to death of course, but Jed above mentioned the other major one, and that is his decision *not* to run a full power calibration on the unfueled reactor (dummy). Almost as soon as Lugano's release in Oct 2014, many declared it DOA just for this alone. The e came along a little later as it was a little more complex. Anyways, I am interested in your opinion. This is from the report itself, and describes Levi's considerations for running the dummy at half power:


    The first phase of the test was dedicated to measuring the “dummy reactor”, i.e. the E-Cat operating without its internal charge. Conservation of energy dictates that all power supplied to the dummy reactor from the electric power line be dissipated as thermal energy to the environment by means of radiation and convection. Therefore, by comparing power input, as measured by the two power analyzers, to power output as measured by us, we were able to ascertain that no overestimation had occurred. In other words, the data relevant to the dummy reactor served the purpose of checking the method used. However, it was not meant to compare the operation of the loaded reactor to the dummy run. In fact, such a procedure would have required that the same amount of power be supplied to the dummy and to the reactor. Moreover, at the start of the measurements, there was no way of knowing what input power the loaded reactor would have absorbed. In fact, it is well known that some Inconel cables have a crystalline structure that is modified by temperature, and are capable of withstanding high currents only if they are operated at the appropriate temperature. If these conditions are not met, microscopic melt spots are liable to occur in the cables. So, there was some fear of fracturing the ceramic body, due to the lower temperature of the thermal generators with respect to the loaded reactor. For these reasons, power to the dummy reactor was held at below 500 W, in order to avoid any possible damage to the apparatus

    Quote from MrSelfSustain

    I didn't think you would believe the claim.

    I don't believe any of his claims. I am not especially biased against this one, because there are many verified claims of heat after death in cold fusion, and no reason to think he cannot accomplish it. If he can accomplish anything, he can do this as well.

    Quote from MrSelfSustain

    But since you don't and it seems IH doesn't, I think the claim would be the easiest and most straightforward attack path for anyone who believed as you do.

    That's incorrect. A properly done test with input and output correctly measured would convince me just as easily, so long as the input was significantly lower than output. Heat after death is not "more convincing." People who think it is more convincing are ignorant, along with people who think that high power or a high COP is somehow more convincing.


    If Rossi has what he claims, any time in the last 6 years he could have convinced the whole world in a few hours. With or without input power, it would be a trivial exercise. You just do the kind of test mandated by law in Florida by the ASME standards. If Rossi had done this, he would have a trillion dollars by now. He has never lifted a finger to demonstrate anything. At first I thought he was like Patterson, who told me he did not want to convince people, because he wanted 100% of market share. After the 1-year fraudulent test, I now think Rossi has not done a test because he cannot actually demonstrate excess heat.


    There is actually no technological value to output without input. If anything, it is dangerous. It is not clear whether input modulates output but if it does, it is a good thing. Input power does not modulate output with electrochemical cold fusion. It has nothing to do with it. There is no known way to modulate it or control it, which is the biggest problem.

    • Official Post

    Dewey,


    Levi justified his decision not to run a full calibration with the dummy at Lugano...to the dismay of the science minded, mainly because he feared breaking the fragile "ceramic body", and that was the only one which he had to work with. I am curious...how many reactors did IH give him access to...Just the one?


    Hate to gang up on the guy, especially since it bothers the English moderator, but he (Levi) seems to be working his way into IH's cross-hairs, and there are some legitimate questions regarding his role in this. One could even argue, that without his "successes" in verifying both the Ecat in Jan 2011, and the Hotcats in 2013/2014, Rossi would have failed in attracting IH.

    Quote from MrSelfSustain

    If Rossi has what he claims -- regardless if he has behaved morally or ethically -- I don't think he has strangled cold fusion.

    Yes, he has strangled cold fusion. That is a fact.


    He does not have what he claims. But suppose for the sake of argument he did. How would that help? What difference would it make? If you are starving to death, the fact that someone has a warehouse full of food nearby does not help you. Rossi acts like a fraud. He causes harm like a fraud. I.H. did not pay him because he acted like a fraud and did not give them the technology, as he was contractually obligated to do. So, what advantage could there be if he actually has something?!? If he has something, he resembles Patterson, who was determined to take his technology to the grave rather than give anyone else even 1% of the benefit from it.


    A person who actually has something but who acts like a fraud is just as bad as a fraud. It is impossible to tell them apart. Morally speaking, it is infinitely worse to have this technology and withhold it because you are greedy. Defrauding I.H. is bad, but withholding the technology would be worse. It is fortunate that Rossi has nothing and he is withholding nothing. He is nothing but a two-bit criminal, rather than a monster who would stand by and do nothing while millions of people suffer and die for lack of energy.


    He is a monster in one sense though. In the service of his own avarice, he not only bilked I.H. of $11 million, he also nearly destroyed what was left of cold fusion. Maybe he did destroy it.

    Shane - I'm not sure how many reactors were in Lugano. It is my understanding that Rossi jumped in and unexpectedly cut the power in the temp run-up in the Lugano control test. Maybe there was a logical explanation for that but we ended up with no adequate control data as a result for the Lugano test.


    My opinion is that Levi got caught up in the excitement of Rossi and drafted along as a good soldier. It appears that he was involved in numerous controversial matters under Rossi's direction and his actions may be impairing the reputations of many scientists who have yet to distance themselves from this controversy. Right now, I'd to like to eave it at that.

    Quote from Rigel

    My speculation is since it is a civil trial, one side will offer to settle.

    This is my feeling too, I think Rossi's initial lawsuit was a bluff, and IH called him out. Now it's a standoff - whoever blinks first will have to make the most concessions in the settlement.


    But... I'm unsure of this for a couple of reasons: First, the case is supposedly Rossi vs. Darden, but it's also (according to the documents) Leonardo vs IH... Ie. can Leonardo just go bankrupt, essentially preventing any recovery of the $10m? Surely much of the money has been taken out of the company, judging by the Florida real estate purchases. Yes, the 'corporate veil' can be pierced in cases of fraud, but (in the UK at least) this rarely happens, possibly because it's difficult to prove "deliberate" fraud (to the court's standard), and I think there would need to be another criminal case for this to happen.


    In the case of an Leonardo bankruptcy, maybe there's a mechanism for IH to get hold of the (still possibly useful) IP/patents, but they could be still looking at at $10m hole, with legal fees on top. If all the above is true, surely IH has more to gain by settling?


    Second reason for unsurety: Director's legal insurance is fairly common (again, in the UK at least) to cover legal costs in these kind of cases. However, if IH/Darden has such a policy, does this take strategic decisions (whether to settle or not) out of IH's hands, and into the hands of risk averse bean counters?


    If Rossi wanted to swap, say $5m for a confidentiality agreement, would this leave everyone happy(ish)? - I believe Dewey when he says they want the money back to spend on more promising projects, rather than vengefully spending/wasting $10m essentially publicly shaming Rossi... Which could just be a helpful stance for the purpose of extracting a more favourable settlement. Maybe it all depends on how badly IH wants the patents.


    But, as noted earlier - the court case is also "Rossi vs Darden", so is Rossi personally 'on the hook' for the $10m? In which case, those Florida condos might be much more easily extractable...


    Anyway, this is all just conjecture, and armchair lawyering, but I bet it's not wildly off the mark. Anyone more knowledgeable on such things care to comment, to help my/our understanding of such technicalities?


    Personally I hope it goes to trial, and we get hear more from Fabiani about the story behind his 'blade runner' statements. Or is he not actually a defendant anymore? I don't read all the pacer stuff.


    Code
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARPCjp0ppEE
    Quote from IH Fanboy

    Such hyperbole as of late! Trying to shift attention away from the manifest misdirection foisted on this community by you and Dewey?

    This misdirection you point to is horseshit. It is like your accusation that my mistaking 100.1 for 103 deg C was significant. It was a trivial error that I quickly corrected. Anytime I make the slightest error you glom onto it with dire accusations. Whereas you never call out Rossi for anything, and you never demand anything from him. Your hypocrisy would be disgraceful if it were not so ridiculous.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Dewey Weaver

    Shane - I'm not sure how many reactors were in Lugano. It is my understanding that Rossi jumped in and unexpectedly cut the power in the temp run-up in the Lugano control test. Maybe there was a logical explanation for that but we ended up with no adequate control data as a result for the Lugano test.


    My opinion is that Levi got caught up in the excitement of Rossi and drafted along as a good soldier. It appears that he was involved in numerous controversial matters under Rossi's direction and his actions may be impairing the reputations of many scientists who have yet to distance themselves from this controversy. Right now, I'd to like to eave it at th


    Thx Dewey. I do hope Levi was just duped like so many others. He seems such a nice person. Retired with a pension, successful career, there was no need for him to willingly participate in a scam. Same goes for the rest of the Italian/Swedish scientists caught up in this. Can not find it now, but I remember a comment from someone...prosecutor or Mayor, in the PetrolDragon affair, who said Rossi has an unique ability to get scientists and engineers to believe in him. Maybe that is the case here.

    Quote from zeus46

    Surely much of the money has been taken out of the company, judging by the Florida real estate purchases.


    I assume that any assets bought with money received by Leonardo are liable to seizure?


    Quote from zeus46

    I believe Dewey when he says they want the money back to spend on more promising projects, rather than vengefully spending/wasting $10m essentially publicly shaming Rossi?


    Just to play devil's advocate: Rossi has been on the scene for six years, giving the impression he has the secret to kilowatts and megawatts of power to be extracted from nickel and hydrogen, all the while dropping tantalizing but misleading hints here and there about this or that way to get things working, sending well-meaning observers such as MFMP, Brian Albiston and Jack Cole on wild goose chases. He has received millions of dollars of IH's money only to turn around to sue them for fraud, paying his lawyers from that same money in a lawsuit that looks in retrospect to have been an act of bluffing, as you suggest, and a miscalculation at that. If IH were to settle, believing nonetheless that Rossi is a financial predator, they would do so knowing that he might be able to go out and swindle another group such as Hydrofusion. With this description in mind, if it has some truth to it, which I suspect it does, I would not blame IH for pursuing their suit as far as they can. Business considerations may intervene, of course, as you suggest, and the legal outcome is probably hard to guess as well, the law being what it is.

    I generally ascribe good intentions to IH, but I think looking after Hydrofusion and their ilk might be an act of charity too far. This is business after all. Caveat emptor!


    Quote from Eric Walker

    I assume that any assets bought with money received by Leonardo are liable to seizure?

    Yes if Leonardo still owns those assets. If cash has been out paid as dividends, it can be beyond reach sometimes. Google "piercing the corporate veil" for some background.


    Quote from Eric Walker

    and the legal outcome is probably hard to guess as well, the law being what it is

    Hence why people like to settle out of court - it can be an expensive dice roll.

    It may be a civil trial but I have been told by a reliable source that the local authorities have been asked to investigate the possibility that Rossi also violated criminal statutes against fraud. Whether they will choose to proceed against Rossi, I do not know. Those things take lots of time.

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