Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

    SSC "Why no one has tried to stop the test if there were so many doubts? Maybe too many interests at stake on both sides?"


    Perhaps because it was never designed nor originally billed or signed off as the GPT but just a false customer supply system. Then when it was after the fact called a GPT, it was complained about.

    THHuxleynew thats true enough. I was wondering if we could eliminate some possibilities just by considering flows and supplied power. For me a steam/ condenser circuit would require at least some LENR but if it is indeed a water circuit with low delta T, the knowledge where and how the Temperature is measured is relevant as you say. Looks like we will have to wait for the circuit diagram after all.


    Thanks for your responses and being a mirror for my thoughts here.

    @Dewey, Whatever do you mean?

    I am cold, Miami is warm. I think Rossi is a sham and that this is a sideshow to me, but not to you. Also, I have been on a roof looking for an air handler (there were dozens and dozens). I always think that I speak and ask questions plainly, without arrogance and with a true sense of wonder. And I follow up if I do not understand. Was it the comment to SSC?


    What did you read into my statement?

    stephenC The placement I want to know is were the inlet temperature was measured and if it is in a mixed flow. I am afraid from what I have seen that it is in the holding tank and not on the inlet line. That brings to question 1) was the tank mixed, 2) where was the temp sensor compared to the cooled inlet, 3) where was the temp sensor compared to the tank heater, and where was the outlet compared to the tank heater.


    From the report, it looks like they just measured the tank temperature and not mixed water at the inlets to all those pumps. They were required to measure the inlet temp. Did they?

    oldguy good questions I guess we will have to see as I would also be guessing. But wouldn't a high pipe like that necessitate a full flow of either water under pumped pressure or steam? I'm probably showing my ignorance here but I'm not sure how it could be mixed flow... but even if mixed flow wouldnt 20kW if steam be a very low part of the content implying the water would need to come from bellow the water line?


    Sorry just thinking aloud there.


    Edit. Or do you mean mixed flows of hot and cold water rather than steam and water? I just noticed you were mostly talking about the inlet. Also interesting. I guess we will have to see.


    I think THH and some others are right in that without the circuit diagram we can only guess about these things. So looks like we will have to wait and see what comes up.

    It is fairly easy to mix the water in an inlet pipe with a static inline mixer. It is important since a sensor can be fooled if the water in the pipe is not mixed due to laminar flow. Without some kind of mixer, the water does not have a uniform temperature. Its temp on the outside near the pipe wall registers part of the environment's temp. So exact placement (to within fractions of an inch) can give you drastically different temps.


    I was thinking that the return water from the "customer" was cooled. Then the water is heated in an external tank outside the shipping container. The energy used to heat that water in the tank does not appear in the data. If the water into the system was taken close to the heater in the tank and away from some tank sensor, then it could appear that the water was cooler than recorded as inlet. Basically you would be just measuring the cooled water from the customer and not the heated water flowing into the system. (actually overstated but it would not be the temp of the water into the ecats. That is why it would be important to know the temp. of the water in the inlet to the shipping container pumps and not someplace removed from the inlet. Not having a good mixed water temp at the inlet is a common mistake of novices to flow calorimetry.

    Rigel


    I wouldn't be too concerned. Dewey tends to attack perceived enemies and friends alike. What he doesn't understand, it seems, is that we all share a common interest in LENR and in particular this dispute, and simply want to know what happened and what is happening, because it has great implications to the broader society. He seems to have a siege mentality when really we are quite harmless. Just deal straight with us. Because I expect no less from him and his team. I also expect no less from Rossi and his team.

    oldguy. They are good points you made about water mixing, thanks. I'm certainly a novice regarding this stuff and I learned something from your clarifications. It definitely makes it clear how careful one needs to be with this stuff.


    I guess we have to see what is finally explained hopefully.

    Max temp per day in the reservoir at some unknown location compared to the heater in the tank.

    The problem is not knowing how the temperature read at the tank relates to the temperature of the water the

    system is supplied with. What we need to know is the temperature of the inlet to the pumps and not some value of the water reservoir near the cooled water coming from the "customer".

    And we need the actual water mass. The reported COP is directly a result of the reported water mass per day. It is assumed that it all (or at least 90%) boils.

    The reservoir temperature barely budges compared to the large increment changes in reported water flow.

    (It is not the °F temperature in Florida reported in °C , either. I checked.)


    If anything, the tank T increases immediately before a giant leap in COP or before the imminent failure of a Tiger module, (usually both, but not always).

    I don't think we can really know much at all until we see the plumbing diagrams, the electrical diagrams, sensor placements, exact equipment used (since there was some talk that Rossi pulled the original items out), and the values for the control and calibration runs.


    I am still amazed at not seeing any evidence that they did even a "calibration on the fly" by injecting a kW or two of resistive heat during the run to verify the sensors and scaling of values. Perhaps it was done but I don't see evidence of any control measures anywhere. If they did things "right" you would think that somewhere they did a calibration run with all the sensors and meters in place. And a good scientist would likely do a pre and post calibration run to prove nothing has drifted. Pulling sensors and checking them afterward is OK but it does not tell if they were placed correctly and installed correctly (example length of straight pipes of proper diameter before flow meters, the placement to keep the pressure meters within their operating temps, and so on). The whole procedure looks very sloppy. I know I would never sign off on such a system without calibration and control runs before and after and would request insertions of known heat during the run to verify the conditions.

    perhaps I missed it or perhaps someone here can help me. I am wondering about the volume capability of all those metering pumps supplying the ecats. from the photo

    http://1zi1nw7qb8j26yrfx15kzsp…1438638465167-466x605.jpg

    (ok that is Italy but all we have)

    it looks like they are Omega php200 series pumps or similar.

    Those have a max output of 4.5gal/h or around 400 liters/day - 400kg/day water.

    So at the claimed 36000 kg/day flow rate (understated?) that would take 90 of them to be running all the time.


    but didn't they say the reduced the number of ecats to 50 something?

    So how did that much water get pumped??????

    Sure would like to see those plumbing diagrams

    @IHFB,

    Yeah I know, I see that if someone feels that they are being attacked no one is a friend. I have had a bad week and just apologized to someone else in another thread.

    I honestly have no idea on how trials go. It's funny though I am critical of Rossi. You still have an open mind, somehow we get along. Dewey thinks I am shaking his tree.

    But now I understand if someone perceives you as a threat, they stop listening and start reacting.

    I am not sure if this is OT did you read the ECW open thread? Where Rossi said ( I paraphrase -- No reactors have been sent to customers) I am astonished at that. He picks now in the middle of the proceedings to be so honest? TOTAL CONSPIRACY there can be no other explanation /S


    I wonder if that will somehow that will be brought up in the trial. I am not sure if a date for it has even been set. This whole event has taken so long to play out.

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