Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

You're right where I want you RiRi. Get some rest - the fun hasn't really started yet.

basic engineering facts about the steam pipe

in the Doral plant

Being night here, I could not follow how the discussions here have evolved re the 40mm pipe issue. Now I see they were disfocussed.

Elementary engineering solution: (based on the core ERV report data):

The steam pipe sizing sites on the Web will tell you

"for 1500 g/h ~zero bar overpressure steam you need a 200 mm diameter pipe"

Data for calculation used in design:

- steam density 0.6 kg/cu.m

- standard steam speed 25 m/s;

To be moved 1500/0.6 = 2500 cu.m steam per hour

The 200 mm pipe has a section (surface) of

0.0314 sq.m so

per second it will transport-0.0314X 25= 0.785 mc steam.

And per hour- 0.785 X 3600= 2826 mc- OK.

Ergo the pipe has to be minimum 200 mm.

Regarding my experience with steam (ignoring that at my first workplace a synthetic fiber plant I was burnt badly with it) it is everyday practice in chemical plants; once I have worked 3 days as translator and plant guide with an expert in Energy Efficiency sent by UNO as help after the oil crisis .

A great failure was an initiative to replace natural gas (CH4) with hydrogen as fuel in boilers- huge quantities of hydrogen go in the atmosphere at Chlor Alkali Electrolysis plants. The efficiency of boilers decreased to some 30% of the usual so the idea was abandoned.

Quote from Peter Gluck

Ergo the pipe has to be minimum 200 mm.

200 mm = five times x 40 mm. In that case it was quite a mistake to have identified the pipe as DN40 in Exhibit 5.

Dear Eric,

25 times, the section counts.Mistake or something else, Murray knows.

But take in account that the pipe was more than probably insulated- what kind of insulating?

How efficient?

No reason to discuss more, Dewey here surely has the pipe diagram and can tell- 40 or 200 mm?

As an aside I wanted to call the kind attention of our colleagues from both camps here to:

http://egooutpeters.blogspot.r…ng-to-support-what-i.html

to the Hungarian proverb there. I have been taught by life - in plants especially that the rules of technology MUST be respected you cannot screwp-up (is this a good translation?) with technology.

This pipe and the horribility of the half-full pipes and flowmeter - if real then are dreadful. So I hope they are inventions- not good ones.

The abdominable former member of this forum has wished me: "Peter Gluck, burn in Hell!" however the most painful, despicable insult I have received in the frame of this long RvD discussions was blasphemious to my profession and unpardonable:

"Anyone knowledgeable about flowmeters can tell you a dozen ways to make the answer 10 times too large."

By the way, the POWOCAZ flowmeter factory has aan impressive portfolio of products and a nice website.

peter

It's obviously true that 200C steam carries more energy than 100C steam... But only about 5% more, hence steam volume would only be 5% less.

The increase in pressure compresses that steam much more than the ecat hence why a smaller pipe is permissable.

More about Penon, and the essence of the dispute here

Please compare these two data;

37.57 km/hour and

21.09 km/hour

These the average speeds attained during

100 m run and

at the marathon (42.195 km) as show

the present athletic world records. For the long range test you can/must run slower.

And Penon was accused for incompetence because he has chosen an flowmeter seemingly oversized- actually specially calibrated on purpose.

his task was to choose and test instruments for an marathon test and for this resistant instruments with constancy in reading are necessary- specifically a flowmeter calibrated for the conditions in which it will function- - sealed for a year- then verified by re-calibration in the same

conditions. (documents at the Court)

The flowmeter has rotating parts and these must be as resistant to wear as possible.

Obviously a minimum number of rotations possible is good- this is the very reason, the logic, the superior technological common sense that has guided Penon in choosing the type of apometer.

- aimed for behaving well during the loneliness of the long distance Runner. And it had!

Industrial experience.

Thinking about Penon who was viciously attacked here from the vety start- I realize an essential thing.

The Rossi killers here are not so much corrupt

(funding is limited) as indoctrinated and self-indoctrinated to hate. Rossi must be hated! and then hatred is extended to his collaborators to his supporters - ostracized to a strange asylum like fictive Planet- hate everything related to Rossi.

Hate the Plant, hate the instruments, but focus on persons. It is something pathological in this but it is human, it is overall, in the worst senses...just it is not effective and not efficient.

It is useless to speak aaout the chief indoctrinators proselytizing "hate Rossi!"

Understand them, they are lacking technical proofs.

Peter - I don't know how wrong you have previously been in other points in your life but you could not be more wrong now. Rossi is the one who attacked IH last April by simultaneous filing litigation and unleashing a slanderous and libelous PR campaign.

IH has strongly responded and plans to see this through to the end. There is no hate - this is a fight against a known criminal / trickster / liar (can you deny any of those facts?) who picked a fight with people who don't put up with that kind of crap and have the resources to see that through.

Furthermore, how can somebody of your knowledge and stature possibly defend the perfect daily flow rate and temp numbers in Penon's data? It is not possible. Penon wasn't there and was spoon fed what he should have realized was ridiculous and outrageous non-data. He then ignored accountable questions and expects "expert" treatment now? Apparently only by folks like you. You need to start realizing that your brand and reputation have started to swirl around the drain.

Wake up Peter. Please snap out of this state that you're in.

Quote from Peter Gluck

Data for calculation used in design:

- steam density 0.6 kg/cu.m

- standard steam speed 25 m/s;

To be moved 1500/0.6 = 2500 cu.m steam per hour

The 200 mm pipe has a section (surface) of

0.0314 sq.m so

per second it will transport-0.0314X 25= 0.785 mc steam.

And per hour- 0.785 X 3600= 2826 mc- OK.

Ergo the pipe has to be minimum 200 mm.

Display More

You have that backward! The pipe was 40 mm in diameter. Ergo the steam density and speed could not have been what is claimed. This is proof that your equations do not apply.

You cannot erase facts because they prove you are wrong. It only works the other way around.

Peter,

I do not hate Rossi, I have never even met him, (virtually no one has). He has caused no harm to me, my family or my friends so why should I hate him.

The results of his experiments are simply not believable to me or any other engineer who does not believe what they are told to believe simply because it's convenient.

At such time when The Ecat data can be replicated, (Energy Out>Energy In), then I will be more than happy to jump on the bandwagon, however, as of today, i am not holding my breath.

Methinks thou dost protesteth too much

Quote from Bob

I am now curious as to why low temp steam is not used in power generation. Low temp steam is far less corrosive and easier, less dangerous to handle. I would not think a 5% power increase would merit the increased problems with the higher temp. Yet I am sure that steam turbines normally require temperature higher than 200C.

This is an interesting topic. Combustion steam turbines operate at around 500°C I think. Corporations are trying to develop versions that operate at 700°C. However, nuclear power plant steam turbines operate at lower temperatures, around 250°C to 300°C in the primary circuit of a PWR reactor:

http://www.world-nuclear.org/i…clear-power-reactors.aspx

This is much less efficient that a combustion steam turbine. Overall Carnot efficiency is around 30% at a nuclear plant, and more like 40 or 50% at a combustion plant. They could raise the temperature at a nuclear plant, but they keep it low to reduce wear and tear on the generator turbines, prolonging the life of the equipment. They do that because the heat from uranium fuel is much cheaper than from coal or gas. It is a trade-off.

The same trade-off will surely be made with cold fusion, if it can ever be made to work, because with cold fusion the heat is virtually free.

I think combustion steam turbines nowadays are mainly combined cycle, where waste heat from a gas turbine is used to produce steam for a steam turbine. Combined cycle generator efficiency is now up to around 60%, which is remarkable. See:

http://www.powerengineeringint…t-efficiency-barrier.html

Quote from Bob

I am now curious as to why low temp steam is not used in power generation. Low temp steam is far less corrosive and easier, less dangerous to handle. I would not think a 5% power increase would merit the increased problems with the higher temp.

Low temp (dry) steam is in danger of partially condensing into small droplets (wet steam). These are actually much more corrosive than dry steam, when you consider the velocities inside a turbine.

It is of benefit to make a turbine as small as possible otherwise costs and "centrifugal" forces on the vanes increase dramatically.

To get the highest efficiency possible from a (smaller) turbine, it wants the hottest steam possible. Normally/previously this has been limited to 550C due the strength limits of steel at high temperatures... Better alloys are available but are typically not deemed cost effective for 'normal' uses.

To Jed

I have it correctly- these are the ERV data - BTW have you seen the recorded, minute per minute data much more relevant.

Now if the the pipe is indeed 40 mm the story ends

no more than 100 kg/hoursteam can pass though at atmospheric pressure.

How can you guarantee the pipe was 40mm?

My calculation is simple and OK.

The pipe had to be at least 200 mm, if it was not the data are not correct- we have to find the good one.

Quote from Dewey Weaver

Peter - I don't know how wrong you have previously been in other points in your life but you could not be more wrong now. Rossi is the one who attacked IH last April by simultaneous filing litigation and unleashing a slanderous and libelous PR campaign.

IH has strongly responded and plans to see this through to the end. There is no hate - this is a fight against a known criminal / trickster / liar (can you deny any of those facts?) who picked a fight with people who don't put up with that kind of crap and have the resources to see that through.

Furthermore, how can somebody of your knowledge and stature possibly defend the perfect daily flow rate and temp numbers in Penon's data? It is not possible. Penon wasn't there and was spoon fed what he should have realized was ridiculous and outrageous non-data. He then ignored accountable questions and expects "expert" treatment now? Apparently only by folks like you. You need to start realizing that your brand and reputation have started to swirl around the drain.

Wake up Peter. Please snap out of this state that you're in.

Display More

Can you?

peter

Dear Dewey,

First i have to thank you for saying I am wrong and not putting in doubt my mental sanity - in the spririt of the document I presented here yestrday.

If you do not hate Rossi, please have empathy and see his side of the story:

- during the Test and some days after there was

a valid- not annihilated contract and no official messages of 'it does not work" results we paid

are fake- so he was surprised and disappointed for not getting the money;

- I have shown you and have many many clear messages etc showing not he started the "slanderous and libelous PR campaign".

(IH has started it but by intermediaries- as you);

- calling a 4 years collaborator associate of IH

"known criminal / trickster / liar" is not appropriate what do you think, not the best diplomacy; qui ressemble s'assemble sy the French

as regarding the data, as i wrote to Jed too, we have to see the data effectively recorded minute by minute and then we will see how those round values were calculated-you must kill those data not criticise them:

- not answering to Murray- the half full pipe idea and the 40mm pipe justify ignoring him, really, if not invented they are offenses to logic; what's the truth?

I am at an age beyond ambition- we will see what will happen to my reputation.

It is about hatred for Rossi- would you wish to one supporter of him "burn in Hell?" if you do not hate?

return to realism, please!

peter

Quote from Zeus46

I have it correctly- these are the ERV data - BTW have you seen the recorded, minute per minute data much more relevant.

The ERV data is fraudulent. It is impossible.

I have not seen any minute by minute data. I do not think there was any. I have heard there was no computer. There was only manual data collection with the numbers written down once a day.

Quote from Peter Gluck

Now if the the pipe is indeed 40 mm the story ends

The pipe was indeed 40 mm, and the story has ended.

If the pipe had been bigger, then Rossi and Penon would have said so. They would have told Murray and IH: "The pipe is bigger. Here is a photo of it." It would be very easy to prove that Murray was wrong. $89 million was at stake, so Rossi would have responded with proof.

Rossi did not respond to any of the problems raised in Exhibit 5. If he had any valid responses, he would have given them. Even if he intended to file suit, he would still have shown proof that the Exhibit is mistaken.

Peter - I don't see anyway to help you out of your massive state of confusion. Rossi used deception to get IH into the Doral "customer" rental agreement and is not owed any further money. We did not start the litigation or PR war - a simple review of Vessie, Sifferkoll and JONP blogs from last April and May is all that you need to check to refresh your memory. Rossi is also going to be held accountable for not delivering on the license agreement as well.

I do hate what you are doing to yourself and your blog - that is a huge mistake but you cannot hear me and as a result, that no longer matters.

Jed,

Do you know what ahve said Rossi and Penon bout the pipe to the court?

What I have asked you is a proof the pipe was 40mm. You say you have an authentic pipe diagram. Or can you write to murray, you seem to consider him a genius he will like it and tell you how he measured that critical pipe- insulated and also how he realized the half full pipe catastrophe.

We can make this confidential.

peter

Jed - Peter did not keep the confidence around an email exchange that I had with him from last Spring. He claimed confusion.

FYI

The pipe size matter is a non-sequitur based on what was learned last week during the container inspection.

Planet Rossi is attempting to introduce new "facts" into the story which is an incredible thing to behold. The established facts, data and in-hand images are going to make that a fun day in front of the Judge.

Hey up Jed... your quote is mixing me up with another poster. Possibly Peter.