Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

    Dear Zorud,

    You can call me Peter, I am the only one around.

    What you say is and want is idealism (and i know idealism from inside it)

    Idealism does not work and has three antonyms; realism, pragmatism,and materialism. Without great money gained by some people, without investments, without REAL competition nothing will happen.

    See what has happened in IT Inr=formtion Revolution- I have followed very closely GOOGLE (working at an ISP and publishing a wwebsearch newsletter when web-search was still difficult)

    So does the world function.

    Very mportant- Rossi's system is surelly not unique, not the best, not the final one.

    We need the effort and creativity of amny researchers who will out-Rossi Rossi.

    Rossi is an inventor not a scientist and he has a technology, science theory comes now.


    And yes in his place I would behave very similarly

    pragmatically taking reality in consideration nad trying to get a lot of money- I would spend it for

    founding an Institute to Fight against Probletence.

    See my 20 Real Life Problem Solving Rules.

    Peter

    TDIU, so you are taking the position that he lied in his patent and told IH the truth, but they can't process the fuel correctly because they lack the skill? There has not been a credible or repeatable way to demonstrate excess heat based on AR's approach. The repeatability problem refutes the credibility in some cases (e.g., Parkhomov and Me356 to the extent that nothing he has shared improved results). Despite replicators carefully following the procedures outlined by Parkhomov, and even using fuel provided by him, it has not worked. The other potentially positive results are within the error bands or are otherwise lacking rigor. The hypothesis that fuel processing makes any difference is not supported by any empirical data. It is an unfalsifiable attempt to save hope in the technology.

    Quote from Rigel

    @THEDEBATEISUSELESS - Hey, good to see you!


    Thanks! I woke up the other morning and felt emotionally calm and collected enough to start making a few posts. This whole topic can get me very emotionally unsettled -- especially when forum users start to attack each other. I can't say I'll be posting here on a regular basis, but in real life I have very few people to discuss this technology with. The very few friends of mine I talk to on a regular basis have almost zero interest, and random people at McDonalds just stare at me cluelessly. I've tried to discuss it with family members, but either they are not at all technically savy (not even knowing the structure of an atom) or they think I'm crazy for being interested in yet another technology they claim will never go anywhere.


    On the good side of things, I think I have a better understanding of what's going on with the E-Cat effect than ever before -- at least on the practical side of how to make it work. Of course I may just be deluding myself so I try not to get too excited.

    Quote from THEDEBATEISUSELESS

    A list of other parties have replicated the Rossi Effect seemingly successfully,

    There have not been any successful replications as far as I know. A few people claimed they replicated, but they all made mistakes, or they did sloppy work, or they failed to describe what they did. That often happens in cold fusion.


    Quote from THEDEBATEISUSELESS

    Of course I may just be deluding myself

    Yes, you are deluding yourself. Rossi has not published any credible evidence that he succeeded, and no one who claims they replicated him has published a satisfactory, convincing description of their work. As I said, this is Cheshire Cat science. Every time you look closely, it fades away, leaving only a smile. In Rossi's case, it faded away taking $11 million in return for nothing, and it may have destroyed the field of cold fusion. That remains to be seen.

    Quote from Jack Cole

    TDIU, so you are taking the position that he lied in his patent and told IH the truth, but they can't process the fuel correctly because they lack the skill? There has not been a credible or repeatable way to demonstrate excess heat based on AR's approach. The repeatability problem refutes the credibility in some cases (e.g., Parkhomov and Me356 to the extent that nothing he has shared improved results). Despite replicators carefully following the procedures outlined by Parkhomov, and even using fuel provided by him, it has not worked. The other potentially positive results are within the error bands or are otherwise lacking rigor. The hypothesis that fuel processing makes any difference is not supported by any empirical data. It is an unfalsifiable attempt to save hope in the technology.


    The reason there has not been a credible or repeatable way to demonstrate excess heat is because virtually NO ONE (we don't know about IH) has done the tedious work of figuring out what's required via fuel processing, testing different types/brands/sizes of nickel to figure out how these requirements change, look at the condition of the nickel before and after fuel processing with a microscope (literally and metaphorically) to examine what has changed, etc. As far as I know, even Parkhomov and Songsheng performed relatively little fuel processing work -- obviously far less than what was required to figure out key parameters required to come up with a set of guidelines for other replicators. Parkhomov and Songsheng got their results mostly by luck. For example, in one test Songsheng's fuel mixture didn't do diddly due to oxidation from being exposed to atmosphere (or collection of moisture). The result was no excess heat. Then he vacuums the whole batch of fuel again for twelve hours or a day and applies hydrogen from a tank. After this, he achieves excess heat. However, as far as I know, he never did any work to determine the difference between his fuel that didn't work and the fuel that had been exposed to vacuum and supplemental hydrogen.


    Virtually NO ONE focuses on fuel processing. This is the problem. We have ancedotal accounts of nickel producing high levels of excess heat after being processed extensively (Stremmenos account for example) and even the Thermocore test. But only Me356 has done the nitty gritty research to figure out what's required to get specific brands/types of nickel to breathe. And the result was, he claims, the capability to produce all the excess heat he wants by then controlling the application of atomic hydrogen.


    I think proper fuel processing is trickier than anyone thinks, because just getting the nickel clean isn't good enough. You have to change the internal lattice structure so that cavities/defects/spaces of certain sizes and geometries are formed. Even though Rossi and Me356 are, in my opinion, ahead of almost everyone (perhaps George Miley is achieving great things quietly) I doubt they even know EVERYTHING. But they seem to have enough skill and experience to make their systems work reliably, most of the time.

    Quote from Peter Gluck

    And yes in his place I would behave very similarly

    Peter - why? if your patent on such a device/recator has been granted, you are the one who is in the driver seat. Wouldn't it be much more straight forward and effective, to invite some of the main stream media, perform a successful UNDOUBTABLE demonstration, and allow contracted partner companies to manufacture and sell and license your reactor? Big money will come 24/7 for the rest of his live...

    It doesn't seem that Rossi wants to go this way. His one is deception, secrecy, and of course lies along his long way to SIGMA 5 for his new kid QuarkX. He anyway doesn't seem to be interested anymore in the old container 1MW plants he initially wanted to made by robotized lines. I am eager to see his next masterpiece, which is announced to be demonstrated soon. So let's give him a last try.

    Quote from THEDEBATEISUSELESS

    My explanation is that Rossi is paranoid about giving out information that could help replicators because his technology, fundamentally, is extremely simple. I think once you learn how to nail the processing of the nickel fuel (EM stimulation is below this in importance) the effect can be rapidly engineered into products. Me356 discovered this himself: once you process the nickel so that it can "breathe" there are countless ways to move forward with the technology. The truth is that 98% of replicators don't perform the tedious daily testing that is required to optimize the breathing process. This is the ONLY reason Rossi is still ahead of everyone else. I'm convinced that the lack of most replicators to commit to even ONE MONTH of working exclusively on fuel processing (and testing each new batch) is why we're in such a rut right now.


    As soon as a team can be put together to methodically (not always making sweeping changes but shifting one small parameter at a time) figure out how to make specific brands/types/sizes of nickel breathe, this whole thread will become mostly irrelevant. Once you have optimized nickel, if you add a source of atomic hydrogen (there are many such sources) like a hot tungsten filament, a radio frequency generator, a DC glow discharge, or some other method to produce energetic H atoms/ions that can deeply penetrate the nickel surface, you can set your COP to whatever you desire.


    I can understand your point of view. You are convinced, I would guess from a collection of evidence other than Rossi's demos, that his version of LENR works. That is obviously a very attractive proposition given that it would appear to be relatively easy for anyone to replicate, and to herald a worldwide revolution in nearly free energy as soon as replication is nailed.


    As Jack Cole and otehrs have indicated above,others here do not share your views. I think there are two separate aspects to this:


    • Looking at the replications (Parkhomov, MFMP, etc) there is a clear pattern of no reproducible excess heat, and a clear pattern of no-one being able to repeat positives. If as you say the isolated positive are luck then all that is necessary is for the groups concerned to repeat and they will get lucky again. That is not what we see. We also see a correlation between less secure experiments and positives - the more careful experimenters have never found positive results. The few outstanding positive results have (to my knowledge) been repeated by the person who originated them with less convincing results on reproduction. That is a sure sign that the initial encouraging results were error. More careful experiments (e.g. MFMP) have never shown clear results. Me356 I do not count because he has never released a test report that could be considered.
    • Looking at Rossi's own claims and delivered technology, I can understand why you believe Rossi is paranoid. He has consistently been extraordinarily careful not to let others inspect or critique his tests. That however fits his never having anything that works even better than it fits his concern that others would steal technology. There is no evidence now that Levi's unreliable behaviour is well exposed (see Abd's blog for a comprehensive review) that any proper test has even been conducted. All have either known flaky experimenters, or known flaky (from a technical point of view) test reports. Most have both.

    Furthermore there is factual evidence that Rossi lies, and I don't see how you can square the whole non-GPT Doral test with your picture. After all, from Court documents, it is clear that Rossi wanted this test, and wanted $89M from it. So, if he has working product, why does he not comply with test conditions that would allow this to be paid? It would not be difficult to get definite evidence his device works... Even if IH still did not want to accept this test as a GPT, a test that complied with proper protocols and demonstrated excess heat would help his case. It is also difficult to understand how Darden's behaviour and thinking fits with somone unwilling to pay $89M for working product.


    As for a team to replicate. You don't think IH have been trying this? They are well-resourced, and kept trying for more than a year before giving up.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    There have not been any successful replications as far as I know. A few people claimed they replicated, but they all made mistakes, or they did sloppy work, or they failed to describe what they did. That often happens in cold fusion.


    Yes, you are deluding yourself. Rossi has not published any credible evidence that he succeeded, and no one who claims they replicated him has published a satisfactory, convincing description of their work. As I said, this is Cheshire Cat science. Every time you look closely, it fades away, leaving only a smile. In Rossi's case, it faded away taking $11 million in return for nothing, and it may have destroyed the field of cold fusion. That remains to be seen.


    I am convinced that if Rossi's possible (I would say likely but I want the full story that's presented in the trial) misrepresentations and devious deceptions don't cost him the lawsuit or end his work in cold fusion forever, his technology could very well result in him being the savior of the cold fusion field. But, as you say, I could be deluding myself. Certainly, not matter what, he hasn't destroyed the field -- there are more people interested than ever before. For example, there has NEVER been more sharing of resources, tools, and information before interested parties. And this has all been inspired by Andrea Rossi.

    JedRothwell,

    He has not destroyed the field of cold fusion IMO. You have said it before, the real folks working on this stuff spend their time pursuing real science.

    In an ugly, time consuming and wasteful way... He may have indirectly helped. By moving some focus back to validating Pd based CF. That IH is still funding indicates that the field is still intact.


    This is a bit of a segue, but Eric Walker and I were talking about Papp. I am paraphrasing him but, he indicated that just maybe the electrodes stimulated or involved a nuclear (e.g. thorium) source. My thoughts are, if stimulating a lattice this way works, it's all good and would make good sense to pursue it. That I am sour on NiH now just means in its current form. Change the paradigm and retest. This is a sideshow even his supporters are recognizing it as such.

    To Zorud,


    I am speaking from experience, patents protect IP only if it is about a PRODUCT not when it is about a PROCESS - not traceable.

    I have myself 33 patents (Romanian made after the same rules as US or EU or similar and I know hat can be taken and how. It is absolutely useless to disscuss patents, PHOSITA or similar- see my "Reverse engineering is not for sissies"

    A Hungarian proverb says:

    "Who cannot speak Arabian, should not speak Arabian"

    Who does not know patents...


    To Roseland 67

    If you do not apologize fr your insinuation that I believe in Santa Claus I would categorize you as a rude troll, negative IQ and ignore you completely

    Anonimity = irresponsibility, coward's courage!


    peter

    Quote from THEDEBATEISUSELESS

    The reason there has not been a credible or repeatable way to demonstrate excess heat is because virtually NO ONE (we don't know about IH) has done the tedious work of figuring out what's required via fuel processing . . .

    No, the reason is because the calorimetry ranged from bad, to terrible, to outrageous fraud. There is no convincing evidence of excess heat. There are a few unreplicated reports such as Levi's first test, but that was marred by his second test at Lugano that failed.


    Many cold fusion claims have failed. That's okay. That's how experimental science goes. But in this case, I.H. paid $11 million and put a team of experts on the job for a year or more, yet they found absolutely nothing. Nothing! No cold fusion claim has ever been given such close attention, or lavished with such funding. Other claims were confirmed and replicated. This one failed completely. Rossi was given one opportunity after another. He would have been paid $89 million more if he had succeeded. Yet in his 1-year test he didn't even try. It was a farce from start to finish. The data is so glaringly, cynically, grotesquely fake, he was not even trying to fool people. The only people he fooled are the inhabitants on Planet Rossi who think that his machine produced 1 MW of heat on days when Rossi himself reported it was turned off! And people who think you can magically hide 1 MW of heat with a sauna. Why you or anyone else believes this kind of thing is beyond my comprehension. You have drifted far, far away into cloud cuckoo land.


    Let me try to respond to you bit by bit.


    1) I'm convinced because I've read many (obvious not all of them) of LENR papers and patents extending back a very long time. Combining this information from information gathered from other sources (researchers, replicators, other fields of science) I've put together a logical framework of the the practical side of LENR in my mind. Or, at least it seems logical to me.


    2) According to this structure, LENR is not easy. It's not easy because 99% of researchers have no desire to do more than a short series of one off tests, changing parameters and learning little to nothing. The 1% that remains may be willing or have the desire to perform longer series of tests, but they have minimal interest or lack the capability (equipment, time, money, labor) to focus on fuel prep in detail for any significant period of time. Me356 represents, in my mind, the remaining .01% of replicators who are willing and able to obsessively compulsively -- with the right mindset -- pursue fuel processing.


    3) If someone is willing to do the work on #2 and combine it with methods of producing atomic hydrogen (or energetic ions) I think the technology becomes very powerful and relatively easy. Again, easy is a relative term. The same amount of work/labor might be easy for someone with a couple staff and the ability to buy equipment (which I think was Me356's case) but more challenging for someone who works all by themselves that has to scrounge up used equipment or build stuff themselves.


    4) I tend to think the plant produced some level of excess heat and worked in this sense. By worked, I'm not even saying met the criteria for payment. I'm only saying that with Andrea Rossi's years of experience I don't think all of the reactors could have been total failures from the start. This is near impossible in my opinion. If the excess heat could even escape the reactors themselves or be transported through the pipework is another issue. If the excess heat was even close to accurately measured is another issue. If there was any method to further verify the quantity of heat imparted through the wall was another issue. There are tons of issues that I hope will be resolved during the trial. Right now, we just don't know.


    5) I don't want to get caught up on what was going through Rossi or IH's mind during the test. Again, we just don't know. There are too many possibilities, and by randomly making assumption's we'll likely get things wrong. All I can say is that I'm thinking *something* changed during the course of the test that perhaps altered the level of cooperation and communication between IH and Rossi. I won't speculate further.


    5)

    Zorud,


    one basic idea more

    what do you think how many patents are necessary to cover a technology of high complexity as Rossi's ?

    It is a multi-step-stage-phase process.

    Friendly question have you ever read my blog?

    I am a technologist, I have taught managers Management of Technology and i dare to claim that I understand what happens in any technology.

    Nothing is simple, everything can and must be improved.

    peter

    Peter - you are not the only one who has patents. I am a physisist and working in R&D, and quite a few of my ideas ended up in innovations and patents and as well in products. Once a year I am glad to see a check from my employer - so I think I know what I am talking about and do not need to learn Arabian. I agree that Rossis "Process" IP is completely useless as long as he has no product based on this - so we still need to wait for this day to come.

    Quote from THEDEBATEISUSELESS

    I am convinced that if Rossi's possible (I would say likely but I want the full story that's presented in the trial)

    You have the full story in Penon's data. There is nothing more to it. Rossi is lying through his teeth, telling you the machine produced exactly the same result for weeks, and the same temperature to nearest tenth-degree when ambient temperature fluctuated, in thermodynamic magic. He is telling you the machine produced 1 MW of heat continuously even on days when he previously told you it was turned off. How can you believe that?!? It is a grotesque lie. Apparently you, Peter Gluck and others cannot see that, but that is a fact and it is staring you in the face.


    It makes no difference what the trial reveals. It makes no difference what the pipe size was, or how the flow meter was installed. You can ignore the fact that 1 MW would have cooked everyone in the building. There are many irrefutable reasons proving Rossi lied, but you can ignore them all and look only at the data. If you cannot see from the data alone that this is fake, nothing will convince you.

    Quote from Rigel

    JedRothwell,

    He has not destroyed the field of cold fusion IMO. You have said it before, the real folks working on this stuff spend their time pursuing real science.

    In an ugly, time consuming and wasteful way... He may have indirectly helped. By moving some focus back to validating Pd based CF. That IH is still funding indicates that the field is still intact.


    This is a bit of a segue, but Eric Walker and I were talking about Papp. I am paraphrasing him but, he indicated that just maybe the electrodes stimulated or involved a nuclear (e.g. thorium) source. My thoughts are, if stimulating a lattice this way works, it's all good and would make good sense to pursue it. That I am sour on NiH now just means in its current form. Change the paradigm and retest. This is a sideshow even his supporters are recognizing it as such.

    Like most LENR systems, the Papp engine produces electrons from the decay of nucleons(protons and neutrons). Rossi has revealed that his Hot Cat Reactor produces 20% of its COP in whole cloth electron production.


    The key to a sucessful Papp engine design is to capture those excess electrons and use them to activate the next piston spark discharge.


    To capture these excess electrons, Papp used a technology that was current at the beginning of the last century, alpha particle enhanced electrodes.


    In the last century, Lightning Rods included radium to produce a positive charged electrode condition to attract excess electrons. Papp used this method to activate his electrodes to amplify their electron capturing power.


    https://www.orau.org/ptp/colle…products/lightningrod.htm




    A variety of alpha emitters have been used to ionize the air around the tip of lightning rod tips (e.g., radium, thorium, americium). Radioactive lightning rods are pretty much a thing of the past in the U.S., but they are still employed in many other regions of the world.

    The examples shown here employ radium. Radium activities would generally be in the 1 -10 mCi range. The radium is applied to the circular disks.



    Papp engine control includes a circuit that adjusted the excess current produced by the electrodes that captured the excess electrons to power the next spark discharge in the other cylinder pair.


    Loss of control of this current gathering mechanism would produces a runaway engine. When the external power plug used to feed the control unit was pulled, the engine would explode due to over revving which happened during the Richard Feynman demo. Yes, this was a poor design.


    Without an alpha emitter in the electrodes (buckets) the Papp engine does not work. Radium was required to produces those alpha particles. Thorium is a marginal replacement.

    Jed,


    The simple truth is that I haven't been saying Rossi produced one megawatt of steam consistently day in and day out. Moreover, I've repeated more than once that we don't know how accurate the data from the plant was -- there could have been errors or even possibly (will have to wait for the trial) intentional false reports. On more than one occasion I've stated that it seems extremely likely Rossi misled, exaggerated, and participated in deception -- possibly including the total output and/or performance of the plant. I'm not willing to make sweeping set-in-stone determinations because we won't get all the facts presented in a clear manner until the trial. But unlike what you are trying to imply, I'm very open to the plausibility that many aspects of the Doral test could have been flaky, shady, or crooked. You are intentionally and falsely lumping me into the same group as Peter Gluck. You already know this, but I'll say it again for the benefit of those who are reading: I'm not convinced Andrea Rossi told the truth about many matters in regards to the Doral test. This is especially true about topics such as the independence of JM Products, the connection to Johnson Matthey, the nature of Bass's employment, the extent of manufacturing by JM Products, etc. The performance and total output of the plant itself is also in question. But we can't examine many *possible* deceptions about the plant in detail because we don't have all the evidence -- a full schematic of the setup with pictures and specifications of each component isn't even available to us. No one will even tell us if DN40 is the correct pipe size, as an example. And, you know what, I'll agree with you and others by saying, by itself, the pipe size tells us very little. It is only one issue of many we need much more information about.


    There is a gigantic difference, however, between some level of deception and zero excess heat. As has been discussed on this forum, there are many possible scenarios in which some level of excess heat was produced. But there is no way for those of us on this forum to figure out what level of excess heat could have been possible due to the lack of details available to members of this forum. And even if excess heat was created in the reactors themselves, we don't know if it could have been practically of efficiently transported.


    And, the last thing I'll say: even if somehow a decent quantity of excess heat was produced that doesn't necessarily mean that Rossi deserves to win a red cent. It would only show that his technology can indeed work.

    Zorud,


    this can be a very long discussion but before going to finish my daily EGO OUT I want to tell you two things

    - from 1991 to 199 when I retired I was researcher in ITIM Cluj _ institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology working with physicists (I am chemical engineer) so I know- I knew it before what physicists do and I can see the similarities and differences between a patent made by a physicist

    and a technological patent;

    - you seem to respect the rule of infallibility you do not accept to have erred at any price. Why the heck you say Rossi has no products? You have seen tens of ECats you have seen the plant. In photos; some of you, IH faithful do not believe it exists.


    peter

    Rossi has no products in that he doesn't have units right now available for purchase by anyone with the money to buy them.


    If a billionair right now asked Rossi for a single ready to purchase E-Cat, Rossi would not have a single unit in his inventory.


    He could probably build something pretty quickly, but he has no stock ready for immediate sale.


    Not one megawatt, not one hundred megawatts, not one kilowatt, and not even a one watt unit.


    Rossi will only make a significant impact when he has such units for sale by anyone who wishes to purchase them -- even if he has to make them sign a legal disclaimer that they are only for experimental use.

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