So I wonder if they would have paid the 89 million if they felt the 1MW test was actually a success.
I am sure they would have. It would be in their interests to do so, and it would be a lot cheaper and safer than not paying. There is no way they could begin manufacturing without first paying this. The whole point of this, and the only reason they spent any money in the first place, was to begin manufacturing someday.
OK Wy, please show me one place where IH stated the pipe was DN40 in depositions under oath and repeatedly in fact
@ Now where you clearly state that you think/work for IH, we need no longer comment your FUD. Just reread my post and think once more, who might have been the lier(s) In this forum!!
Oh well, this dubious heat exchanger(s), which Rossi claims now to have them installed instead of the office window - that window which is on most of the photos we have seen coincidently covered by a tree.
Actually, the middle window is not obscured at all. Looking at the front of the building, the one behind the tree is the far left window, and the one over the door is the far right window.
Anyways, the one behind the tree is also visible from various angles.
My own expert testified so I have to make up an exchanger. But if an exchanger is ten feet higher and meters away, the pressure must go up significantly!
Plus it is invisible to the human eye and the camera. A remarkable heat exchanger!
So that is 1/6th of what Rossi claims.
In context, if the 60C -> 100C claimed temperature difference is real, that corresponds to:40C * (5/60)kg/s * 4.2 kJ/kgC = 14kW. Leaving 6kW (I'm supposing 20kW input power, is that correct?) for phase change.
At 2260kJ/kg, and this flowrate, 100% phase change would require:5/60 kg/s * 2260kJ/kg = 190kW. Thus we have phase change of approximately 3% of the total flow. Two electric kettles worth.
Actually, here is what my spreadsheet looks like at the top...
Pretty close to 1500L (report)/300 (5L*60 minutes from Murray tests)
This completely absurd and ridiculous lawsuit is what happens when careless people with other people's money decide to invest in something they do not understand and they don't bother to get detailed and comprehensive consultation from people who do. IH found out very late that Rossi was entirely FOS. Had they required him to do a few simple, cheap and quick tests with the original ecats under the supervision of experts in calorimetry, fluid flow and heat transfer, they would not now be wasting millions of investor dollars (theirs and Woodford's) and much of their reputation as savy investors.
And had IH, God forbid, bothered to commission a complete internet search, including the skeptical remarks about Rossi on the Vortex email list, the posts about the matter in ecatworld.com, the web sites of Steve Krivit and Gary Wright, my many posts and much much else, they would have realized that Rossi was an unsavory individual with a horrible reputation who was exceedingly unlikely to have ever produced anything of value.
And even if they did not do the above, they could have hired real experts to deconstruct the idiotic tests of the early ecats, uniformly and without exception performed by grossly incompetent methods and witnessed by nobody except wishful and gullible, poorly qualified individuals who, even at that, reached only inconclusive determinations.
I am no longer following the story closely but it seems, over here, we're still debating the merits of a completely unwarranted one year test of god-knows-what-kludge, done by unknown or fraudulent people under indeterminable conditions? Wow. And on e-catworld.com, Acland and Lewan are still braying that Rossi is probably right. Double-wow.
http://www.e-catworld.com/2017…than-the-energy-consumed/
QuoteDisplay MoreLENR G Mats Lewan • 2 days ago
Q1 - Have you been able to contact the Uppsala doc student about the QuarkX paper? We'd at least like to know if he was actually there and if he participated in taking measurements.
Q2 - Now that so much that was previously hidden has become public is anybody showing a new willingness to talk to you -- even on background? Does what you know and we don't make you more or less likely to believe the E-Cat is an over-unity technology?
Mats Lewan LENR G • 2 days ago
1. No contact yet.
2. No big change. Specifically, IH, that never contacted me, or even avoided me not responding to my emails, still hasn't contacted me, while I know its people have reached out to many others with various proposals, seemingly with underlying messages.
I find the current developments very interesting and I'm looking forward to see how it all plays out. My expectation is that lots will have happened at the end of this year.
And yes, I still have many reasons to think the E-Cat is real. None of the objections brought up by IH et al in the ongoing lawsuit seem impressive to me. Fairly vague hypotheses, not very convincing. But I'm curious to see if they can produce anything better.Frank Acland ECW Admin Mats Lewan • 2 days ago
From everything I have learned, including from recent information, it seems the e-cat works very well indeed. I think Andrea Rossi has made some exceptional progress with his impossible invention. I expect that the experimental data presented in the recent Gullstrom/Rossi paper will be confirmed if Rossi does his long-promised presentation.
If all that heat was blowing out on the second floor shouldn't that deciduous tree be barren? Along with all the paint on that window peeling? I would think the plume alone would show up. Cooling 1MW in Miami some subtle temperature differences had to be quite apparent.
If ~ 0.5 - 1 MW of process heat were vented into the area near a tree for one year, I suppose the tree would show evidence of that. (Presumably some of the heat was absorbed in the endothermic process.)
This completely absurd and ridiculous lawsuit is what happens when careless people with other people's money
It was their money. Their personal money.
Had they required him to do a few simple, cheap and quick tests with the original ecats under the supervision of experts in calorimetry, fluid flow and heat transfer, they would not now be wasting millions of investor dollars (theirs and Woodford's) and much of their reputation as savy investors.
Reluctantly, I must agree. Except they were fooled by Lugano, which appeared at first to be a professional effort.
Plus, it seems a little unfair to blame them for the expense of the lawsuit. I doubt they realized Rossi had the chutzpah to sue. I know him pretty well, but I was shocked by the suit. I thought he would fold his tent and vanish in the night.
Perhaps someone in the area of Doral will be interested in taking a look at the tree to see if enough time has passed for it to fully recover?
Perhaps someone in the area of Doral will be interested in taking a look at the tree to see if enough time has passed for it to fully recover?
It would be dead or recovered by now, I think. Anyway, no one saw this pipe going up from the pretend customer site to the second floor, so it did not exist.
I'm not trying to buy more time to believe. This is not a situation where if IH is wrong, then Rossi is right or vice versa. Both sides appear to be behaving like slippery snakes, as I stated in my first post in this thread. The only side I'm on is promoting LENR for the betterment of our world and the easing of human suffering. And that's not what I see here on either side on the basis of these documents. Yet I still naively cling to the hope that at some point in the future I will be surprised by Rossi or IH or both. But I won't hold my breath.
Josh,
I am just confused as to what this smearing of IH accomplishes? You, and the few remaining Rossi supporters seem to be on an all out attack of Darden/Vaughn's character. Even going so far as to blame IH for letting Rossi screw them, as if that reflects negatively on them -makes them the bad guys, instead of Rossi. Just a head scratcher to me.
I have read most of the testimony, and to be honest TD/Vaughn come across as very forthright. Can you say the same about Rossi? 
They knew Rossi was difficult to deal with before they made contact with him. Studied his very colorful (being generous) past, yet still thought it worth the risk to see if he really had something. They took on the venture mostly for humanitarian reasons, and secondly for making money if it panned out. Anything wrong with that BTW? And may I add, Rossi chose them also, but IMO for a totally different reason...
He (Rossi) had turned down previous joint venture offers from ENEL, NI (according to Cures), and rejected Elon Musk's overtures according to Lewan. There were probably others, but the fact is, Rossi finally accepted a deal with a technically naïve real estate VC (IH), that really made no sense, unless he considered them the gullible marks he had been waiting for.
So you seem upset IH is gullible, and incompetent, but that is why Rossi chose them.
I would think that the effects are remarkable. It (fluid dynamics) is a well known science, the Doctor will need another way. We (that care) should be thinking of anyway possibly that this could have worked. Not the fact that it did not, (and the same time defied most laws) . I honestly seek how it can be done. It was not done here. He had to dump (or.. make use of) the heat if it was generated. That is the point is it not? We really can not look on Amazon for the sponges can we? I think that the point he is his own customer is well made.
Personally I think that the pipes from individual units were DN40 but going to a somewhat larger pipe (possibly 80 but doubtfully the required 120 that Peter mentioned). but.....
All this talk of pipe size will likely not be important. It seems that Rossi claimed to have removed the pipe evidence (spoliation of evidence) and under the principle of 'adverse interpretation' we in the "peanut jury" have to assume that the size to be that which is in the defendant's best interest.
It may not sit well with some but if we take the legal view, that is what may likely happen.
It may not sit well with some but if we take the legal view, that is what may likely happen
The fact you have to cater to the few whom this: "may not sit well with", to me is a testament of just how ridiculous this discussion has become. As BH pointed out, and more than a few others, once the accuser destroys his own evidence he bases his suit on, it should all be over. Yet, here we are arguing with a few flat earthers, whether the earth is round, or not, and there is IH still in court, after showing Rossi, in his own words, admitting he destroyed his own evidence against IH.
Just to keep me sane, I try to convince myself we are arguing with a very, very small minority who could look at the evidence and find fault with IH, whom somehow found their way to LF. But then there is that Judge....
Another issue I should make plain and clear. Although I think the plant "worked" in that it produced some amount of excess heat, I am also not convinced it produced a full one megawatt or even 750kW. A lower quantity of heat could very well have been emitted. However, with a COP of sometimes 80 or higher, even a HUGE over estimation could still result in a COP of ten or so. My guess is that a COP of lets say 250kW or so could have been dissipated by a combination of methods including keeping the bay doors opens and other mechanisms Andrea Rossi designed.
Nope. Not a chance. There is no way it produced anything. I.H. tested it for a year. Murray and other experts tested it in NC and in FL. There was NO SIGN of excess heat. Nothing. Bupkis. You need to get that notion out of your head.
If it had produced remotely as much heat as you imagine (10 times input), I.H. would have gladly paid the $89 million. They would be insane not to. They would have to spend a few billion dollars to commercialize it, and if they did not pay the $89 million first, they would be in a world of trouble when it came time to start selling. Rossi would be in an ideal position to team up with a big industrial corporation and take it all from them. Thousands of corporations and lawyers would jump to partner with him. They would lose the whole ~$2 billion. It is simply unthinkable not to pay in this situation.
Heck, if it had produced 10% excess with high confidence, they would have gladly paid. Any venture capitalist would.
If it had produced remotely as much heat as you imagine (10 times input), I.H. would have gladly paid the $89 million.
And if IH had not paid the $89 mil in that case, Woodford, instead of Rossi, would be suing them.
This is so crazy, IH says it all over their testimony...they simply wanted Rossi to produce something. Anything. They did not care with what Ecat type; single Ecat, Hotcat, 6 pack, 30 cylinder, 1MW, or whatever, they just wanted to see him deliver.
That is why they (IH) were so flexible with the "genius", yet ironically, some choose instead to interpret IH's tolerance as meaning IH is the evil, gullible, and incompetents in this story.
Dewey, BTW, my check is late.
Nope. Not a chance. There is no way it produced anything. I.H. tested it for a year. Murray and other experts tested it in NC and in FL. There was NO SIGN of excess heat. Nothing. Bupkis. You need to get that notion out of your head.
If it had produced remotely as much heat as you imagine (10 times input), I.H. would have gladly paid the $89 million. They would be insane not to. They would have to spend a few billion dollars to commercialize it, and if they did not pay the $89 million first, they would be in a world of trouble when it came time to start selling. Rossi would be in an ideal position to team up with a big industrial corporation and take it all from them. Thousands of corporations and lawyers would jump to partner with him. They would lose the whole ~$2 billion. It is simply unthinkable not to pay in this situation.
Heck, if it had produced 10% excess with high confidence, they would have gladly paid. Any venture capitalist would.
Rossi had 400 days to show that the reaction worked. If IH did not see any valid gainful reaction in 50 days then their was no way that Rossi could have produced the 350 gainful reaction requirement. After 50 days of a non functional reaction IH would be insane to run the test for any longer. IH could have stopped the test after 50 days. This is why I doubt that what you say is valid; these statements do not make sense.
The use of logic is one way that fake news can be detected. Another is the use of recrimination in the face of a logical argument.
But you aren't suggesting that this pigtail - in case one was installed - would cool down the condensate to the allowed 50°C operating pressure, are you?
50C is not a pressure, it is a temperature. As for 'would it...etc..' ? Why not? That is what they are designed to do. And since neither I nor you have seen this installation, we cannot say.
Rossi had 400 days to show that the reaction worked. If IH did not see any valid gainful reaction in 50 days then their was no way that Rossi could have produced the 350 gainful reaction requirement. After 50 days of a non functional reaction IH would be insane to run the test for any longer. IH could have stopped the test after 50 days. This is why I doubt that what you say is valid; these statements do not make sense.
The use of logic is one way that fake news can be detected. Another is the use of recrimination in the face of a logical argument.
but remember IH did not consider it to be the GPT. Rossi did not use the GPT term till Aug very late in the "test" - actually the middle of the two year heat sell to the fake customer
The days were to start from the time the GPT was agreed to and signed by both parties. That did not happen so there was never any 50 days into the test.
