Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    And Murray was surprised the factory was not hotter, which means at most +5C rise then, not +10C, certainly not +20C.


    He was unclear about how much the plant was on, except that it was certainly on until 10:30am on the day he arrived. That would be enough to get temperatures high (think about central heating).

    Think about central air conditioning instead. It will keep the temperature stable. Even if the reactor produce 20 to 40 kW the room should not get hot. The air conditioner will work overtime instead. My guess is that in Florida the air conditioning will turn on even in winter.


    It will be stuffy inside the reactor shipping container and in the fake customer site, but the rest of the building should be okay.


    As I said, 40 kW is like having 3 or 4 kitchen ovens running full blast, baking cakes all day long, or a crowd of 400 people in a movie theater. Commercial air conditioning can usually handle that load.

    Quote from joshg

    But after reading their motion in document 264, and assuming that the Jones Day lawyers' reading of case law is correct, it seems that the spoliation claim hinges on the question of whether Rossi should have reasonably anticipated litigation.

    He should have reasonably anticipated litigation because he was the one who filed a lawsuit! He filed it even before the money was due. Of course he knew that he himself was going do this! Or do you think he surprised himself? Do you imagine he sleepwalked into the court, and before he woke up and realized where he was or what he was doing, he had filed a lawsuit?


    So - I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. I agree about the pattern. All I can promise is that I do correct misapprehensions when challenged. Let us try to see what we agree and disagree with.


    1. If the upper pipe is full of water, as Murray Smith claims, then the lower return pipe must also be full of water.


    I reserve judgement - because I'm not really sure what these things are, or whether there could be airlocks, siphons, etc. But what you say here is a decent first pass possibility and what i would first off suppose.


    2. Assuming a single circuit - If the lower return pipe is full of water, the flow meter is accurate to within 3%. Assuming the temperature readings are correct, the COP is somewhere around 5 (According to Paradigmoia, I haven't checked his calcs, but he's not daft).

    Ok - so the issue here, which I should have made clearer, is that I don't assume a single circuit. Clearly. And I can confirm p's calcs because I did them a very very long time ago when we had just the Penon flowrate and temps, and I reckoned the phase change assumption was likely a Rossi special. Then I got a factor of 4 or so out from the temps.


    3. Because of that, Smith needs to claim that the flow meter is vastly over estimating the flow, hence the need to suppose a dual circuit.

    I disagree with how Smith got to this. Smith got to the dual circuit from the flow comparison. Now, I agree the pump flowrate is 32l/hr which goes to 40l/h at low pressure. I don't agree it goes higher than that - which would be contrary to sense and the para in the related manual that indicates higher flow rates are possible at zero pressure difference most likely applies to low stroke rates, where at low pressure the stroke rate can increase. So I agree with Smith here though without testing that pump there is a low probability question mark. If the pump flow is less than the flowmeter flow, and the flowmeter pipe is full, then we MUST have dual flow.


    4. There is no evidence of a dual circuit in any photos, despite Smith being pretty handy with a camera and desktop publishing software.

    I'm not sure what evidence there would be. As I understand it steam risers will always be connected like that. The issue is that with an extra pump (the grundfoss) you can get dual flow. I might be wrong here - I think generally with this setup a lot of the analysis is overly certain. From my POV, if it is uncertain that is all I argue, because I can't analyse it for sure, but I can for sure know that 1MW or anything like is not possible and therefore something is radically wrong with the penon numbers. For all I know it is Rossi's email client has a bug that changes numbers... :)


    Now, does Smith seem overly sure to me? Yes he does, but what he argues is not impossible. whereas, for example, what Wong argues is provably correct (as a theoretical estimate) but also provably unhelpful because under Wong's design assumptions a more accurate calculation gives 100kW not 1.4MW. Quite a big difference.


    I'm not confident about analysis of this system because nothing quite makes sense. So I'd expect there is something we are all missing that gives a better explanation than any we have heard so far, but the two Smith/Murray suggestions remain from my POV real possibilities. Point I want to make is that this inability to be sure how it does not work is because of lack of information. That is not a positive thing.

    Quote from IHSupporter

    THH do you know what day that was the Murray visited?

    I can look up the weather for that day.

    Afraid not, but it must be recorded somewhere. I doubt it was peak of Summer because I vaguely remember Feb! In summer heat I expect all fans would be on even with no heat dissipated!


    EDIT: Feb 16-17 2016

    http://coldfusioncommunity.net…6/11/0029.5_Exhibit_5.pdf

    Quote from Zeus46

    If the return pipe cannot be full of water, then how can the pipes above it be full of water, as Murray claims?

    Where did he say that?


    Anyway, there are two possibilities:


    1. There is resistance to the flow by something like a radiator.

    2. The pipes above that end with a U, before the water goes down to pipe that returns to reservoir.


    The flow meter would work if it were installed in a U, but it wasn't.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    He should have reasonably anticipated litigation because he was the one who filed a lawsuit! He filed it even before the money was due. Of course he knew that he himself was going do this! Or do you think he surprised himself? Do you imagine he sleepwalked into the court, and before he woke up and realized where he was or what he was doing, he had filed a lawsuit?

    Jed, please calm down. You're getting spittle on my computer screen. No, I don't imagine he surprised himself. But IIRC, about a month and a half passed between the end of the "test" and the filing of the lawsuit. He allegedly dismantled the alleged heat exchanger right after the test, so the filing of the lawsuit took place quite some time after that. It wasn't immediate. So the question then is: did he reasonably expect that he would be filing a lawsuit at the time he allegedly dismantled the heat exchanger?


    Let's suppose that at the end of the test he said to himself: if they don't pay, I'm going to sue. In that case, we would want to know if he could reasonably expect IH not to pay. And based on all the documents in IH's Limine motion (264), I would say the answer to that is clearly yes. Since IH had already made it clear several months prior that they did not consider this the GPT, Rossi had no reason to expect payment. And it's clear he didn't expect it, because the lawsuit was ready to go the moment the payment became delinquent. And it is reasonable to assume that he had planned to file a lawsuit long before that. I guess we'll know soon enough if the magistrate agrees.


    Finally, the question of whether he filed before the money was due is irrelevant. What is relevant is how much time passed between the act of (alleged) spoliation and the filing of the lawsuit, which in this case is about a month and a half. But for the record, I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the timing of the filing: IIRC he filed the suit the day after the grace period for payment according to the terms of the contract. Frankly I can't be bothered to look it up, and I might be wrong on this point, but that's what I remember.

    Quote from Nigel Appleton

    Is this [fraud] a) conjecture; b) deduction; or c) a matter of fact supported by solid evidence? Is this the Grundfos pump you're talking about?

    Yes, the Grundfos pump. Regarding the fraud, see Smith, Document 235-10:


    http://coldfusioncommunity.net…01/0235.10_Exhibit_10.pdf


    QUOTE:


    "It is the author’s opinion [Smith's opinion] that the water flow numbers found in Mr. Penon’s report were not generated by condensate returning from the black box. The alleged “steam” and condensate system was in reality a hot water flow circuit using the Grundfos pump to circulate the water through the piping and the water meter.


    In fact, there were two water flow circuits. In the “Feedwater Flow” section above, the combined output of the E-cat feedwater pumps is 768 liters per hour, which is equal to 3.38 gallons per minute. This flow was through the BF feed pumps, through the BF units, to the “steam” line, down through the vertical riser, into the return tank, and back to the feed pumps. . . ."

    Quote from joshg

    But IIRC, about a month and a half passed between the end of the "test" and the filing of the lawsuit. He allegedly dismantled the alleged heat exchanger right after the test, so the filing of the lawsuit took place quite some time after that. It wasn't immediate. So the question then is: did he reasonably expect that he would be filing a lawsuit at the time he allegedly dismantled the heat exchanger?

    Okay, so you imagine he did not intend to file a lawsuit. So he dismantled the heat exchanger. And then a month later, it suddenly occurred to him that he needed to file a lawsuit. Too late! He already destroyed the evidence that would be needed to win the lawsuit. To save a few thousand dollars, he re-used the pipes, but by doing so he threw away the opportunity to win $267 million in the lawsuit.


    Do you really believe Rossi is so stupid that he would throw away a vast sum of money just to re-use some pipes? Do you believe it did not even occur to him to take some photos of the equipment? It just slipped his mind, even though in his deposition, he admits that without this heat exchanger his claims could not be true.


    That's absurd. He was told by many people over the course of the year that the test was bogus. He knew the I.H. did not accept the results. It takes weeks to prepare a lawsuit filing like this. So of course he was preparing to file long before the test ended. Yes, he could "reasonable expect" to file a lawsuit since he had to prepare long before the test ended, or he would not have been able to file so quickly.


    Obviously there was no heat exchanger. There is no trace of it, and the pipes going up to it do not show up in photographs. Obviously he destroyed other equipment and deleted e-mails to hide evidence that proves he is a fraud.


    Jed - you'd agree that the dual flow idea is only proven from the flowrate mismatch if the flowmeter reads correctly?


    So we have two possible errors, but Smith has not given proof for us to prefer the dual flow one over the flowmeter one. He may however have info we do not that points towards it...


    Just to be clear. Both errors could work together, but if there is a flowmeter over-reading error we have no evidence that there is dual flow from the flowrates.

    Re who knew there would be a law suit.


    • It is pretty clear Rossi knew from before the end of the test. Because there was a clear disagreement over the payment (letters) and Rossi would have worked out in advance whether if not paid he would sue.
    • It is less clear that IH knew. They would have thought it possible, but maybe not likely. It is a pretty suicidal thing for Rossi to do. It is not IMHO likley that they would have sued if Rossi had not.



    http://coldfusioncommunity.net…_IH_Motion_to_Exclude.pdf


    makes IH's case with relevant paper trail.

    Quote from JedRothwell


    In fact, there were two water flow circuits. In the “Feedwater Flow” section above, the combined output of the E-cat feedwater pumps is 768 liters per hour, which is equal to 3.38 gallons per minute. This flow was through the BF feed pumps, through the BF units, to the “steam” line, down through the vertical riser, into the return tank, and back to the feed pumps. . . ."


    His misunderstanding of the combined output of the feedwater pumps likely led to his apparent concoction of the two water flow circuits. He had to explain the ostensible mismatch between the feedwater pump total and what was measured by the flow meter. He wasn't questioning the total water flux through the flow meter or the placement aka Jed's theory. He just didn't go there, probably because what he observed had all indications that the condensate return pipe was full of water.

    I seem to recall Dameron saying that they had to raise the water tanks and it took a loot of extra work making a support for them, The tank could have been elevated compare to customer's pipes/pump. I don't remember seeing it in any of the pictures.

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    albeit with no supporting evidence of such a connection. I think we might be witnessing another DN40-like snafu in the works.

    ah yes...

    Rossi's upstairs heat exchanger... no supporting evidence, but "Rossi says" trumps all! Wait, the missing glass that only one adult and one kid can see. That is 100% proof, I almost forgot.


    Yes, Rossi has not submitted ONE piece of court evidence to back up his entire story, except his expert witness, who admittedly saw nothing, knows nothing but what "Rossi says" and based his entire testimony on "Rossi says" This expert's testimony is MUCH more reliable than Murray or Smiths because "Rossi says" trumps all!


    I see no retorts to the mountains of Rossi issues, because your belief, as shown by your many posts, is that "Rossi says" is to be believed, and anything the IH camp says is to be shown as misdirection, ignorant and evil intent. "IH is the worse thing that has ever happened to LENR" By you continued faithful supportive posting, Rossi must be the best thing!


    Back to the DN40, your stalwart defense! Are you ever going to answer my question how you justify a memo that was written before the lawsuit, to a particular person, intent of asking for clarification of several legitimate questions, not an under oath deposition, not intended for public viewing and yet you continuously point to it as your defense! Amazing. And completely ignore the fact that the recipient of the memo, paid by IH, never responded in the manner expected of a professional employee. But that does not matter either! The fact Penon could have cleared up the matter but skipped the country does not matter! He could have answered the memo, but that does not matter. All that matters is to paint IH evil!


    It does not even matter if the pipe was DN150, but who cares about the truth anyway. What matters is to cling to one sentence, taken out of context and wave it like a flag! :whistling:

    Quote from JedRothwell

    There is no trace of it,

    The biggest "negative" evidence of the heat exchanger in my view is no documentation at all of it's design.


    Rossi was trying to get $89 MILLION DOLLARS! If he truly believed his system worked AND he knew he had to dissipate 1MW of heat, surely he would not have scribbled a heat exchanger design on the back of a napkin that would be key to collecting 89 million dollars. 1MW is a vast amount and to dissipate it is not easy!

    So he surely would have done several calculations and made at least some drawings with a materials list of what he had to purchase at Home Depot. He probably would have hired a more experienced HVAC engineer to confirm the design. $89 million dollars was riding on this!


    This amount of money to build this exchanger would not have been trivial. He would have kept the records for tax write offs. Same with labor payments, they are tax deductible. He would have kept that because we know he dislikes paying taxes! (As many people do!)


    Yet ZERO of this evidence has been submitted. ZERO! No receipts, No calculations, No labor payments, nothing! Nothing for tax records! This is beyond belief and is a remarkable blunder. Yet some still believe him!

    this whole thread is for Rossi like an argument about arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. The man has little to no credibility, he's the shiftiest most obfuscatory little con artist in the history of physics. Pipes schmipes. If anyone ever does crack lenr excess heat with reliability something as simple as brewing tea or coffee whilst pointing at an electricity bill would suffice if the cop is at all useful !!!

    You'd be like LOOK HOT COFFEE GALLONS OF IT SPILLING EVERYWHERE. not. IVE GOT EXCESS HEAT , WHAT YOU MEAN ITS REALLY COLD IN HERE? OH THE COFFEE IT LIVES IN THE ROOF! FFS.

    The fact that excess heat is the be all and end all of the whole exercise and the inventor is like

    " oh I had a 1mw heat exchanger that noOne saw ,in a building for a customer that is actually a shell company of my own invention!

    " I'm not a conman honest guv!

    "Oh I dismantled the heat exchanger in any case I HID IT!!!

    ",can I have my 89 million dollars now please?"

    The court will be like

    " get to fuck Mr rossi and what's that about you already getting done for defrauding investors"

    oh I give up...the court should get the idiot commITed to an institution as it seems he almost believes his own tripe.

    BTW I've got a magic box if anyone's interested inside is the NUCLEAR pdog he's made of palladium lattice cake and I bombard him with heavy bonio boson biscuits and he urinates hot syrupy molten gold as a consequence can I have one beeeeelion dollars when he pees the molten gold into an invisible crucible I've installed in the cavity wall which is owned by IOU corporation ?

    PLEASE SIR IT INVOLVES SPECIAL SAUCE AND EXTRA UNKNOWN PHYSICS and no you don't get to see it just take my word for it, here just deposit my beeeelion dollars in my hat and I will be on my way....

    BTW THE PDOGS BEEN VERIFIED BY BRIAN THE CARETAKER, NO YOU CANT SPEAK TO HIM HE JUST LEFT WITH THAT 10MILLION YOU LENT ME. FFS.FFS.FFS.

    rossi: I've got excess heat!

    Ind.heat: where is it?

    Rossi: in the roof

    Ind.heat: where in the roof?

    Rossi: up that pipe that isn't there ,I sold the usage of it to myself! Aren't I clever!

    Ind.heat: no ..are you a conman?

    Rossi:no I'm just misunderstood

    Ind.heat:we will take you to court

    Rossi: nyer nyer I'll take YOU to court first so nyer

    Ind.heat: OK ...we don't look gullible , do We? Oops.

    The end.

    it makes a great comedy sketch.

    Ind heat:I bought this hot cat from you.

    Rossi:What about it?

    IH: its cold

    Rossi: no it isn't

    IH: Its got icicles on it and its not moving, we think it might be dead

    Rossi: no it isn't, it just breathes invisibly

    IH:no its definitely dead(bangs cat on counter snapping icicles)

    Rossi:no no no its just sleeping...

    Monty python eat your heart out.

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    So - I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. I agree about the pattern. All I can promise is that I do correct misapprehensions when challenged. Let us try to see what we agree and disagree with.

    No worries - ideally there would be a tounge-in-cheek emoticon.


    Quote from THHuxleynew

    Ok - so the issue here, which I should have made clearer, is that I don't assume a single circuit. Clearly.


    Fair enough, but I don't get why Smith went to all the trouble of drawing a fancy Engineer48 style diagram of his ideas, and not show a photo of this critical element of his reports conclusions.


    Quote from THHuxleynew

    Now, I agree the pump flowrate is 32l/hr which goes to 40l/h at low pressure. I don't agree it goes higher than that

    I had assumed there must be a main pump in the reservoir, and the metering pumps were just for level adjustments - you don't normally have a pump higher than the reservoir, else how would you prime the pipe?

    But those metering pumps probably also suck air (I think), so case not proven I guess.


    Quote from THHuxleynew

    I'm not sure what evidence there would be. As I understand it steam risers will always be connected like that.

    Ah, like a kind of reverse condensate trap on a steam line? Is that how boilers are set up normally? (I've no idea) Wouldn't the boiler pressure force 'fresh' steam into the return line? Depends, I suppose...

    In Smith's description of the system in the first few pages he says the condensate line flows directly into the reservoir, I had assumed this precluded T-junctions.


    Quote from THHuxleynew

    I'm not confident about analysis of this system because nothing quite makes sense.

    For sure. The whole thing is insane.

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