Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

Quote from JedRothwell

Where did he say that?

Anyway, there are two possibilities:

1. There is resistance to the flow by something like a radiator.

2. The pipes above that end with a U, before the water goes down to pipe that returns to reservoir.

I meant Smith, not Murray... A resistance would reduce pressure but not mass flow rate. I suppose a U, or some weird bends could do that, but I haven't seen anything like that on a photo or diagram.

Quote from JedRothwell

The flow meter would work if it were installed in a U, but it wasn't.

In a sloping pipe like shown in the photos, as long as the meter below the level of the water in the reservoir, then that's really the same thing - ie. a U isn't always fundamental to getting a good measurement.

Breaking news: physicists in humour fail.

Its a big pipe

No its a little pipe

There's no pipe

Its an imaginary pipe rated a 38litres per hour with imagined condensate in it.

No it can't be I've done the imaginary maths projections for a pipe that may or may not exist.

No you haven't

Yes I have.

Its BEHIND you¡ in the roof!

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

Cont. For 6000 posts. That's 6000. 6000 pages of guessed mathematics when a photo of a steaming tank of water would be the least Rossi might provide as evidence.

That's in addition to the 500 posts about the glass that is or isn't there.

I've read them all and I've snapped.sorry.

I mean if I was Rossi and I was for real with my claims?

I'd at least have the humour to have used the heat output in some way

...like taking a bath

...or brewing coffee ...or SOMETHING... ANYTHING!

FFS.

HE WOULD BE SO PROUD!!!

HE SHOULD BE LIKE...

"THIS IS THE FIRST USE OF ENERGY FROM A NEW POWER SOURCE!!! THE FIRST!!! "

WHAT YOU DO WITH IT?

OH HE VENTED IT TO ATMOSPHERE VIA A COMPANY THAT ESSENTIALLY DOESNT EVEN EXIST!!!,

THE WHOLE POINT IS TO GET THIS ESSENTIALLY FREE ENERGY!!!

AND YOU DONT EVEN RUN YOURSELF A BATH?

USE IT TO WASH YOUR HANDS?

FILL THE HOT WATER TANK IN THE ATTIC?

NO YOU VENT IT ALL, TO NOWHERE. NOT EVEN A CUP OF TEA?

YOU COULDNT GET AWAY WITH IT IN THE UK. WE WOULD BE LIKE"

WHERES THE TEA?"

"CMON WHERE IS IT?"

THE POWER OF 500 KETTLES !!!

AND NOT A SINGLE PHOTO OF SO MUCH AS A CUP OF STEAMING TEA?

COME OFF IT...

Quote from THHuxleynew

Convection via roof vents or wall-mounted fans certainly is significant. However, when Murray was there (throughout 1.5 days) the walls fans and roof vent fans (if it existed) were all off. The bay doors were shut. So the only convective heat loss method was natural convection through the roof vent. Which pretty obviously is not enough for 1MW or even 100kW as he found.

I recommend to read Dock 215, the Murray grilling by Anesser... Murray never visited Doral during production time. The day Murray arrived, they just symbolically restarted the 1 MW for ½ an hour... Thus the debunker of IH has been fooled starting the first day ..

Even Murray (in his deposition) had to confess that the flowmeter was full after he had a look at the factory plan, that Penon provided to IH. Thus Murray grasped the last straw by claiming “the flowmeter working out of range..” (which was refuted too...)

Thus: Everything Murray said and gave JED is verified FUD! It will never be used in front of a jury.

To my believe both sides are cheating. If IH would confirm the COP (11) they had on the tiger modules, they constructed and provided to Rossi, then it would be easy to show that Doral never produced more than 250kW. (Just by looking at the electricity bill!)

But IH faces now a central deadlock. They cheated the investors, they wanted to frustrate/cheat the others (Mizuno!) in the field and now they invested already at least 5mio$ for a useless defense. They hired Murray for professional spoliation, they threatened many others. I would buy a spaceX flight to the Mars...

One more thing: Doral used in average 50kW/day for non E-cat purposes. To move 10m3 you already need at least 0.6-1.0kW/h. AR's air-condition used some 100W/h so there is not much left for an office frigo and light and factory work...

PS. THH, I reread the comment where I was agreeing with your convection calcs, but with a sarcastic tone of voice instead.... LOL! Hard to blame you for that one...

Perhaps he chose Florida for the very reason that excess heat would be lost very easily, do it in Canada? Anywhere even temperate ? Excess heats gonna show up when the snow melts ,the steam rises it would contrast with the environment. Florida's so hot already that you can "lose" the perception of 1mw of heat very easily. Back at the start in bologna it reminds me of the steam not steam that was almost photographed. Same old same old. Makes lenr look very much like one big scam to even someone who has read the peer reviewed palladium stuff that's been peer reviewed to show at least the glimpse of validity you get from replication.

Disinterested peasant might be a better name perhaps...

Then again criminology and the study of scams and conartists is quite the science of its own...this site would be far more credible if it weren't for the banner ads for psychics and get rich quick trading schemes. Lenr is a term that due to folk like Rossi will go the way of cold fusion before it I suspect...whatever's going on in those lattices? Doesn't look like we are finding out anytime soon...

Quote from Bob

Are you ever going to answer my question how you justify a memo that was written before the lawsuit, to a particular person, intent of asking for clarification of several legitimate questions, not an under oath deposition, not intended for public viewing and yet you continuously point to it as your defense! Amazing.

I don't justify it. There is nothing to justify about it. Murray himself contradicted the Exhibit 5 in his under-oath deposition. And on the very point that I had called out as likely bunk from the time the Exhibit 5 was deposited on the court docket.

Quote from Bob

Yet ZERO of this evidence has been submitted. ZERO! No receipts, No calculations, No labor payments, nothing! Nothing for tax records! This is beyond belief and is a remarkable blunder. Yet some still believe him!

Because you have not seen them they don't exist? Do you think we have somehow seen all of the evidence? Perhaps you should say you have not seen such evidence yet, and therefore do not believe they exist--that would be a more appropriate assertion.

What is it with the MY clones joining us as of late? Not saying they aren't welcome here. It just seems to a be a mini-surge of them.

Begins to suspect thread is entirely aimed at keeping doubt in the air regarding lenr itself...

And its validity, round and round for 6000 posts? The serious science thrown aside for the sake of paying heed to an obvious conmans imminent downfall. Sad really. Ill crawl back to the arguments about muons , gamma detection and stuff that isnt a bunch of heating engineers arguing about how much heat wasnt recorded coming from a machinery set up that purported to have the power of about 500 domestic kettles. At 1mw? One little steam leak? Would have looked like a vented soup kitchen, even in Florida.

im very aware of Mary yugo. I don't hold her views at all. There's peer reviewed evidence something is occurring in lenr if that's what its called. I'm a criminologist by trade, theoretical physics is a side interest. Rossi's a conman. A clown. 6000 page argument above you reached this conclusion some time ago if you read it. Now the targeted attack directed at me? Yeah OK Mr Rossi. Good luck in court. Lol.

as for ihfanboys tripe about there being no records? Its not really a blunder unless your a conman whose worried about how convincing your setup is. I spent some time in engineering before I took up criminology fellah a plant producing a megawatt of heat energy is like having 500 domestic kettles on the go at once, that's a lot of heat. Noone with half a brain is going to lose that in some fudged drawn out thread even if you can spew thermodynamic maths guesses out at a rate of ten a day. Its cheap.

as to why a professional criminologist is posting? Court case? Go have a think fanboy just have a think...once this stuff got to court you think the taxpayers want to foot the bills and tie up public courts? Excess heats a big story. A 100 million dollar con is bigger. Great copy ...if it involves professional conartistry and managed threads or websites designed to draw out the con even longer? No wonder your scared of getting doxxed if you've her fingers in a pseudoscience till?

my agenda is that I'm simply very interested in the whole field. I'm uniquely positioned you see. Ex engineer who sits through Feynman lectures for fun and happens to study criminals. Your agenda? Very clear to me too. You've nothing like the smarts to hold your own against folk like axil and the honest scientists who post here. It shows by the way just to let you know...

my conclusions? Industrial heat are embarrassed they too have hopeful investors. Rossi? Total con artist making overstated claims in a theoretical field . whole court case looks like a PR stunt to draw in even more unsuspecting investor cash into the field. If there is something in lenr hydrinos or the field of what was cold fusion? It looks less likely by the minute...

@IP,

If it is maths to you, then you're not one of the tax payers supporting the court system handling the Rossi case.

nope its definitely 6000 posts of thermodynamics arguments about flow rates trying to hide where the output of 500 magic steam kettles went. I checked its quite circular too. Stinks of bad double sided managed PR. Controlled opposition in fact. A bruhaha created to cause doubt about the field and throw off any real physics experts with the bonus to scammers who wish to promote investment in a false field of discovery. Cheap. As the old saying goes pull the other one its got bells on. And less CIA analysts viewing it with suspicion. Lenr has gotten very noticed of late. That's all I'm saying. And your not saying very much except . pipes pipes pipes windows etc.

Quote from THHuxleynew

What Doral warehouse temperature is livable?

Actually an interesting question. I take this as a first reference:

https://www.quora.com/What-is-…a-human-being-can-survive

The key is that humidity and temperature are equally relevant. Also, even if Florida air is high humidity, upping the temperature in the Doral warehouse will reduce the relative humidity. Essentially, workers there can stay cool, given enough water, by sweating a lot, providing the relative humidity is low. The important criterion for comfort is wet-bulb temperature. This is much lower than normal temperature, and humans die when it gets above 35C.

So take typical Florida Summer air at peak day-time temperature (33C). The actual comfort depends on humidity, and is shown as wet-bulb temperature. Adding +10C to the air temperature. maintaining the same water content will reduce relative humidity, and therefore the affect on wet-bulb temperature will be a rise of less than 10C.

http://deltacooling.com/TS_Documents/WetBulb.pdf

The above design guidelines show what is the maximum wet-bulb temperature for 1%, 5%, 15% over summer months. Let us take 5% of time, we get 80F throughout Florida or 26.6C wet-bulb. Within 8.4C of lethal which I guess is why there is so much AC in Florida. Note how difficult it is to elevate these high wet-bulb temperatures. adding +10C to real temperature increases wet-bulb here by +2C.

+10C on warehouse temperature (at constant air moisture) gives +2C on wet-bulb temperature of 26.6C, or 28.6C (83.5F). That is well above the 1% Summer condition line for any US city. To actually kill people you need wet-bulb of +35C (at which people cannot reduce temperature by sweating and quite quickly die). But livable conditions are much lower.

https://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_iii/otm_iii_4.html

The limits here for health and safety state wet-bulb of 30C maximum for continuous light work. Much less for moderate or heavy work. +20C on warehouse temperatures would exceed these limits for 15% of the Summer time.

With +10C air temperature that warehouse would still have been very very uncomfortable indeed, for much of the Summer. If Rossi or anyone else was working continuously inside a container at an air temperature higher than the warehouse by 5C or so he would suffer even more. Anecdotal evidence is that the container temperature was higher than warehouse by more than 5C, so it would be a big deal.

The internet is a wonderful resource, it is impressive that we can come to a definite answer to what temperature excess inside a Florida warehouse would be livable.

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I am from the Midwestern US where temperatures in the summer time frequently top 35C (95F) and relative humidity of over 85 Percent. Back in the 1960's most factories were not air conditioned and production continued right along. I do remember one summer when it got to 105F and several people became sick from the heat, but production continued merrily along with the ones that remained (PS: no one died). Of course they were accustomed to such temperatures, but I would wager anyone who lives in South Florida is also.

Quote from THHuxleynew

Jed - you'd agree that the dual flow idea is only proven from the flowrate mismatch if the flowmeter reads correctly?

I do not know the details. I read Murray's deposition twice, but he references some data which I do not think has been uploaded, and some tests. Anyway, my impression is that he definitely thinks the meter was not fully submerged. He described "corrosion" indicating that. Smith was the one who talked about the other pump and the fact that the pumps behind the reactor could not have produced that much water.

Murray talked about other problems I did not know about, such as air bubbles getting into the meter because it wasn't installed properly.

They aimed for 1 MW, a suspiciously round number. They had to boost the flow considerably to reach that. I am just guessing, but maybe they used more than one method. That is mere speculation.

more thermodynamics ping pong. Round and round it goes. I'm with axil. If its nuclear its govt and likely dangerous in more ways than one. And the govt are paying attention. As are the public now its in court. As someone else stated the wheels of justice move slow...but when they chew up bones it don't half go crunch.

Quote from Peter Gluck

You have a fixation with that reservoir and a mania of the half full pipes. It is a pipe, then a small ascendent pipe (that is the rule) that keeps the flowmeter full and then a pipe to the reservoir. Who the heck can see what?

Yes, a small ascendent pipe is what I call a U pipe. That would work. Anyone could see it. People who were there say there wasn't one, and people who examined the pipes and the flow meter say it was not fully submerged. That's all there is to it.

I would say you are more fixated on this than I am. I know there are many other reasons why we can be sure Rossi is a fraud and the data is fake. Even if the flow meter had been fully submerged, Rossi was probably cheating with hidden pump. And in other ways.